THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS (Luke 16) IS NOT A PARABLE

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Saint Steven

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The only afterlife I believe in is the Resurrection that we find in Scripture. The phrase, "realm of the dead" doesn't appear in the original languages so we really need to see what is being spoken of. I suspect, (I haven't checked) that the majority of those references refer to Hades or sheol. Hades or sheol is the grave. That's where the dead go. This is why translators should stick to accurately translating the text and not use colloquial phrases that can be interpreted multiple ways.

The Bible is clear about the dead. They are dead. However, most people believe that the dead live on after the body dies. So, when they see passages such as Lazarus and the Rich Man they read this idea into it rather than understanding that it is a parable and has another meaning.
Jesus related a vast amount of detail about the realm of the dead in the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man. Why do you suppose he was being so misleading?

Look at all the detail about the afterlife in just these three verses.

Luke 16:22-24
“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
 
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Der Alte

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It is still a realm, not unconscious non-existence....
10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might,
for in the realm of the dead, where you are going,
there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom
.
The typical UR ploy selectively quoting a cherry picked UR version.
The word translated "realm" is "sheol" which to the Jews referred to either the grave or a place of unending fiery punishment.
 
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Jesus related a vast amount of detail about the realm of the dead in the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man. Why do you suppose he was being so misleading?

Look at all the detail about the afterlife in just these three verses.

Luke 16:22-24
“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

He wasn't being misleading. He was addressing the Scribes and Pharisees. You are correct about the amount of detail that Jesus gave in the parable. It's often overlooked. What do you think about the details? If the parable is about an afterlife of conscious existence between death and the Resurrection what do the details mean? Why would it matter that the Rich Man had five brothers? Why not two or three? Why does it matter that the Rich Man was dressed in purple and fine linen. Why not just fine attire or a robe? Why does it matter that the Rich Man was a Jew? What about Lazarus, why mention that he is poor? Why mention that he is covered in sores? What does covered in sores have to do with an afterlife? Why mention that the dogs licked his sores? Why would that matter in an afterlife?

All of these details are important. What reason is there to give them just to say that dead people are alive? Is the parable teaching that rich people suffer in torment in this afterlife and that poor people are comforted? If that's the case, Americans are in trouble because by world standards even the poor in America could be considered rich. With all of these details how come we're not told that Lazarus was a righteous man and that that Rich Man was unrighteous or wicked? How come in this parable people who have died and supposedly left their bodies, have body parts, ie, fingers, eyes, tongue, etc?
 
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JulieB67

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The Bible states plainly that the dead know nothing

Ecclesiastes is about the man that walks under the sun. It means this book is about how we should be living and get by in the "flesh".

Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

This is talking about our flesh body, as you can see with the final words -for the memory of them is forgotten. And that is so true. Even in this day, unless you dived into geneology of your family and made a family tree, how many of us can say we know our much about our family 3 or 4 generations ago? Some do but for the most part we go on living for the now. (although I am fascinated with history myself lol)
But yes, the reward they had is gone or passed onto someone else.

We can see once the dust does return to the earth, the spirit goes back to God. All spirits are his and they return to him.


Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."

We see that God gave the spirit and so the spirit in fact goes right back to God.

This is what Christ is talking about in John 3

John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said unto him, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."


"Again" is Greek word 509 anothen- from above, from the first, again, from the beginning.

There's a much deeper study there to when we think that our spirts came from "above" as well when we take in the whole bible.

But since our spirits do in fact go back to God that's where the parable of the rich man comes to play and Christ's teaching in Luke. Whether the parable happened or not (in regards to this thread) Christ is teaching a truth of how it is after we pass from this flesh body. Especially this verse,

Luke 16:26 "And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

After Christ himself was quickened (made alive) in the Spirit, he went to the spirits in prison ( the spirit goes to back to God who gave it)


I Peter 3:18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the Just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:"

I Peter 3:19 "By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison,"


I Peter 3:20 "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering for God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

I Peter 4:5 "Who shall give account to Him That is ready to judge the quick and the dead."

Peter 4:6 "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

Paul also teaches,

II Corinthians 5:8 "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Present in the Greek 1736 endemeo -to be in one's own country, ie, home, be at home, ( present)

So that goes back to the fact that the spirit goes back to God who gave it. He is our true home.

Of course he decides what side of the gulf (chasm) we are to go at this time before the great white throne of judgment.



 
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Butch5

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Ecclesiastes is about the man that walks under the sun. It means this book is about how we should be living and get by in the "flesh".

Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

This is talking about our flesh body, as you can see with the final words -for the memory of them is forgotten. And that is so true. Even in this day, unless you dived into geneology of your family and made a family tree, how many of us can say we know our much about our family 3 or 4 generations ago? Some do but for the most part we go on living for the now. (although I am fascinated with history myself lol)
But yes, the reward they had is gone or passed onto someone else.

We can see once the dust does return to the earth, the spirit goes back to God. All spirits are his and they return to him.


Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."

We see that God gave the spirit and so the spirit in fact goes right back to God.

This is what Christ is talking about in John 3

John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said unto him, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."


"Again" is Greek word 509 anothen- from above, from the first, again, from the beginning.

There's a much deeper study there to when we think that our spirts came from "above" as well when we take in the whole bible.

But since our spirits do in fact go back to God that's where the parable of the rich man comes to play and Christ's teaching in Luke. Whether the parable happened or not (in regards to this thread) Christ is teaching a truth of how it is after we pass from this flesh body. Especially this verse,

Luke 16:26 "And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

After Christ himself was quickened (made alive) in the Spirit, he went to the spirits in prison ( the spirit goes to back to God who gave it)


I Peter 3:18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the Just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:"

I Peter 3:19 "By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison,"


I Peter 3:20 "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering for God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

I Peter 4:5 "Who shall give account to Him That is ready to judge the quick and the dead."

Peter 4:6 "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

Paul also teaches,

II Corinthians 5:8 "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Present in the Greek 1736 endemeo -to be in one's own country, ie, home, be at home, ( present)

So that goes back to the fact that the spirit goes back to God who gave it. He is our true home.

Of course he decides what side of the gulf (chasm) we are to go at this time before the great white throne of judgment.



The spirit that goes back to God is God's. It is not man. Man is not a spirit. God breathed the spirit of life into man and when man dies the spirit of life returns to God. When people die they are dead. That's pretty clear in Scripture. I'd be happy to address each of the passages you posted. They don't teach that dead people are alive.
 
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ClementofA

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The word translated "realm" is "sheol" which to the Jews referred to either the grave or a place of unending fiery punishment.

There were other Jewish views besides "sheol" as a reference to "either the grave or a place of unending fiery punishment". Namely endless annihilation and universalism, to name two.

Furthermore, Sheol in Scripture is - not - a place of "unending fiery punishment". For the Hebrew Sheol is the equivalent of the Greek Hades. And Hades is merely a temporary abode, not a place where anyone stays for an "unending" duration. So the Jews you refer to were wrong!

"Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14).

-----------------------------

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Clearly everything has a positive purpose to it: "to humble them" (Eccl.1:13).

BTW, is "hell" (Hades/Sheol, Tartarus, Gehenna, the lake of fire, the abyss, etc) not also "under the heavens". Evidently those there are, for there own good, being humbled too. See Eccl.1:13 above.

May the Lord keep, bless & heal you.

100 Scriptural Proofs That Jesus Christ Will Save All Mankind
100 Scriptural Proofs That Jesus Christ Will Save All Mankind
 
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ClementofA

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The spirit that goes back to God is God's. It is not man. Man is not a spirit. God breathed the spirit of life into man and when man dies the spirit of life returns to God. When people die they are dead. That's pretty clear in Scripture. I'd be happy to address each of the passages you posted. They don't teach that dead people are alive.

Stephen doesn't say to God "receive Your spirit", but "receive my spirit":

Acts 7:59 And as they were stoning Stephen, he was calling out and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

Psalm 31:5
Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.

Luke 23:46
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Also angelic beings are called "spirits".

1 Thess.5:23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

It is the spirit part of man that is born again:

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

1 Cor.6:7 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

2 Tim.4:22 The Lord Jesus Christ be with thy spirit. Grace be with you. Amen.
 
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Saint Steven

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He wasn't being misleading. He was addressing the Scribes and Pharisees. You are correct about the amount of detail that Jesus gave in the parable. It's often overlooked. What do you think about the details? If the parable is about an afterlife of conscious existence between death and the Resurrection what do the details mean? Why would it matter that the Rich Man had five brothers? Why not two or three? Why does it matter that the Rich Man was dressed in purple and fine linen. Why not just fine attire or a robe? Why does it matter that the Rich Man was a Jew? What about Lazarus, why mention that he is poor? Why mention that he is covered in sores? What does covered in sores have to do with an afterlife? Why mention that the dogs licked his sores? Why would that matter in an afterlife?

All of these details are important. What reason is there to give them just to say that dead people are alive? Is the parable teaching that rich people suffer in torment in this afterlife and that poor people are comforted? If that's the case, Americans are in trouble because by world standards even the poor in America could be considered rich. With all of these details how come we're not told that Lazarus was a righteous man and that that Rich Man was unrighteous or wicked? How come in this parable people who have died and supposedly left their bodies, have body parts, ie, fingers, eyes, tongue, etc?
It seems that there are only two options to your question about whether the details were important.
1) The details were meaningless.
2) The details were meaningful.
It seems that you are voting for #1 and I am voting for #2.

I would say that every detail was meaningful to those who heard Jesus speak the story.
But, I'm not sure I could identify exactly what every detail meant to them. Like the number of brothers.

And it was a common misconception at the time that the rich were blessed by God and the poor were cursed by God. So, this was a bold teaching on that subject. But I wouldn't suggest a broad application there. Obviously, the amount of wealth a person has is not a requirement for salvation.

Beyond that, yes, I think the body we have in the afterlife is as Jesus describes it.
 
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Saint Steven

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The spirit that goes back to God is God's. It is not man. Man is not a spirit. God breathed the spirit of life into man and when man dies the spirit of life returns to God. When people die they are dead. That's pretty clear in Scripture. I'd be happy to address each of the passages you posted. They don't teach that dead people are alive.
Luke 20:37-39
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
39 Some of the teachers of the law responded, “Well said, teacher!”
 
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Butch5

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Stephen doesn't say to God "receive Your spirit", but "receive my spirit":

Acts 7:59 And as they were stoning Stephen, he was calling out and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

Psalm 31:5
Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.

Luke 23:46
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Also angelic beings are called "spirits".

1 Thess.5:23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

It is the spirit part of man that is born again:

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

1 Cor.6:7 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

2 Tim.4:22 The Lord Jesus Christ be with thy spirit. Grace be with you. Amen.


Stephen said receive my breath. That's what the words mean. When someone gives up their breath, they die.

Man is not a spirit, breath. God's spirit or breath is what gives man life. Apart from God's spirit, breath, man is dead. There is nothing in man that can live apart from God's spirit, breath.
 
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Saint Steven

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Stephen said receive my breath. That's what the words mean. When someone gives up their breath, they die.

Man is not a spirit, breath. God's spirit or breath is what gives man life. Apart from God's spirit, breath, man is dead. There is nothing in man that can live apart from God's spirit, breath.
Are you a Jehovah's Witness?
 
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Butch5

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It seems that there are only two options to your question about whether the details were important.
1) The details were meaningless.
2) The details were meaningful.
It seems that you are voting for #1 and I am voting for #2.

I would say that every detail was meaningful to those who heard Jesus speak the story.
But, I'm not sure I could identify exactly what every detail meant to them. Like the number of brothers.

And it was a common misconception at the time that the rich were blessed by God and the poor were cursed by God. So, this was a bold teaching on that subject. But I wouldn't suggest a broad application there. Obviously, the amount of wealth a person has is not a requirement for salvation.

Beyond that, yes, I think the body we have in the afterlife is as Jesus describes it.

On the contrary. I think the details are of the utmost importance. That's why I asked you what you thought of them. Who was Jesus talking to? The Scribes and Pharisees. They were the leadership of Israel, the priesthood. The Rich Man had 5 brothers. Levi, the head of the Levites, the tribe of the priests, had five brothers. The Rich Man wore purple and fine linen. The Priesthood word purple and fine linen.
Consider some of the correlations between the Rich Man and the Priesthood and between Lazarus and Jesus. Below I've pasted a section from another post I had written in another forum.

The parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man is also a judgment of the priesthood and their destruction. Who was Jesus talking to? The Pharisees. The Rich Man was a Jew. The priesthood was Jewish. The Rich Man had five brothers. Levi, the tribe of the priesthood, had five brothers. The Rich Man was dressed in purple and fine linen. The priesthood ruled over Israel as both king and priest and wore purple and fine linen. The Rich Man fared sumptuously. The priesthood fared sumptuously.

What about Lazarus? Lazarus is the Greek form of the Hebrew name Eleazar which means, God help. The Greek form of Eleazar is Lazarus. God helped Jesus. Lazarus had come to the Rich Man. Jesus had come to the Jews. Lazarus was covered in sores. At the cross Jesus was covered in sores. The dogs licked Lazarus' sores. Lazarus was rejected by the Rich Man but accepted by the dogs. The Jews referred to the Gentiles as dogs. Jesus was rejected by the Jews but accepted by the Gentiles. Lazarus was carried away by angels. Jesus was carried away by angles. Lazarus was carried to his father Abraham. Jesus was carried to His father God. Lazarus was embraced by Abraham. Jesus was embraced by God. Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom. Is Abraham's bosom a place located down in the earth? There is nothing in Scripture to suggest any such thing. Abraham's bosom is mentioned elsewhere in Scripture though. Hagar was in Abraham's bosom, and she was alive, not dead.

And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee. (Gen. 16:5 KJV)

Hagar was in an intimate relationship with Abram. From this we see that being in Abraham's bosom means to be in a close relationship with Abraham. Lazarus was in the bosom of his father. Jesus was in the bosom of His father.

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (Jn. 1:18 KJV)

Lazarus is the Greek version of the Hebrew name Eleazar. It means God help. Consider the prophecy of Isaiah.

5 The Lord GOD hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back.
6 I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.
7 For the Lord GOD will help me; therefore shall I not be confounded: therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be ashamed. (Isa. 50:5-7 KJV)

It seems to me this is more than a coincidence.
 
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Luke 20:37-39
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
39 Some of the teachers of the law responded, “Well said, teacher!”

37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him. (Lk. 20:37-38 KJV)

The passage is about the Resurrection. It's not about a state between this life and the Resurrection. The statement, "to him all are alive", gives it from God's perspective. That doesn't mean that they are literally alive. It's from God's perspective. God has the ability to give life at the blink of an eye. However, consider what Paul says about how God calls things.

(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.1 (Rom. 4:17 KJV)

Here Paul says that God calls things which are not as though they were. Luke gives us the passage from God's perspective.
 
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Stephen said receive my breath. That's what the words mean.

The word has multiple meanings, depending on context, according to:

Strong's Greek: 4151. πνεῦμα (pneuma) -- wind, spirit

When someone gives up their breath, they die.

Man is not a spirit, breath. God's spirit or breath is what gives man life. Apart from God's spirit, breath, man is dead. There is nothing in man that can live apart from God's spirit, breath.

How is a breath to be "kept blameless" (1 Thess.5:23)?

Are we to walk by the breath to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, or walk by the Spirit?

Are we to be filled with the breath, or filled with the Spirit?

Is an angel a breath, or is an angel a spirit?

Is he who is joined to the Lord one breath? Or one spirit (1 Cor.6:7)?

Why would Paul say the Lord is with our breath, rather than spirit (2 Tim.4:22)?


******************************


Acts 7:59 And as they were stoning Stephen, he was calling out and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

Psalm 31:5
Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.

Luke 23:46
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Also angelic beings are called "spirits".

1 Thess.5:23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

It is the spirit part of man that is born again:

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

1 Cor.6:7 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

2 Tim.4:22 The Lord Jesus Christ be with thy spirit. Grace be with you. Amen.
 
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"Does the soul continue to interact between physical death and the resurrection? These verses teach that:

(1) Unbelievers:

In hell are conscious and in torment (Luke 16:23);
Are “under punishment [after death] until the day of judgment” (2 Peter 2:9);

(2) Believers:

Are immediately in Paradise at death (Luke 23:43);
Long for a heavenly dwelling (2 Cor. 5:2);

Are away from the body [at death] and are at home with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8);

Deaths are gain (Phil. 1:21) and they depart at death to “be with Christ” (Phil. 1:23);

Who are martyred souls “cried out with a loud voice, ‘O Sovereign Lord . . .” (Rev. 6:9-11). They were conscious after death so that they could speak to the Lord.

…Dr. Morey (2006) provides these verses as “the primary NT texts that refute soul sleep”: Matt. 22:23-33; Lk. 16:19-31; Lk. 23:43; Acts 7:59; 2 Cor. 5:1-10; Phil 1:21-25; Heb. 12:18-24."

--The Afterlife--
 
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The word has multiple meanings, depending on context, according to:

Strong's Greek: 4151. πνεῦμα (pneuma) -- wind, spirit



How is a breath to be "kept blameless" (1 Thess.5:23)?

Are we to walk by the breath to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, or walk by the Spirit?

Are we to be filled with the breath, or filled with the Spirit?

Is an angel a breath, or is an angel a spirit?

Is he who is joined to the Lord one breath? Or one spirit (1 Cor.6:7)?

Why would Paul say the Lord is with our breath, rather than spirit (2 Tim.4:22)?


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Acts 7:59 And as they were stoning Stephen, he was calling out and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

Psalm 31:5
Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.

Luke 23:46
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Also angelic beings are called "spirits".

1 Thess.5:23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

It is the spirit part of man that is born again:

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

1 Cor.6:7 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

2 Tim.4:22 The Lord Jesus Christ be with thy spirit. Grace be with you. Amen.

The Greek and Hebrew words mean wind or breath. The English word spirit is a figurative useage of these Greek and Hebrew words. The English word spirit has as a definition a disembodied living being. The Greek and Hebrew words have "NO" such meaning. There is absolutely nothing is the words neshamah, ruach, pneuma, noe, that mean a disembodied living being. Since these words are sometimes translated as spirit and spirit is a figurative usage of these words one needs to determine what the figure of speech is. The Scriptures tell us that God is Spirit. That's a figure of speech. What does the figure mean? Jesus explained it in John 3.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (Jn. 3:8 KJV)

In this passage, both wind and Spirit are the same Greek word pneuma. The tranlsators have used two different English words to translate the same Greek word. This is why people get confused.

So, how is God wind? Jesus said the wind blows where it wills and you hear it but you can't tell where it comes from or where it goes. It's the same with God, He come and goes and no one can see Him. You see the effects of Him just as you can see the effects of the wind as it blows the trees.

The problem and confusion comes when people see the word spirit and import the idea of a disembodied living being onto the text. The Greek and Hebrew words have no such meaning. It's easy to see people doing this because people speak of the spirit living on. However, it's literally the word wind or breath.
 
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Saint Steven

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The problem and confusion comes when people see the word spirit and import the idea of a disembodied living being onto the text. The Greek and Hebrew words have no such meaning. It's easy to see people doing this because people speak of the spirit living on. However, it's literally the word wind or breath.
So, do you not differentiate between life and death, spiritual and physical?
As in, physical life/physical death, spiritual life/spiritual death.

Adam before the Fall = spiritually alive/physically alive
Adam after the Fall = spiritually dead/physically alive
Humankind before death = spiritually dead/physically alive
Humankind after death = spiritually dead/physically dead
Humankind with Christ before death = spiritually alive/physically alive
Humankind with Christ after death = spiritually alive/physically dead
 
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Butch5

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So, do you not differentiate between life and death, spiritual and physical?
As in, physical life/physical death, spiritual life/spiritual death.

Adam before the Fall = spiritually alive/physically alive
Adam after the Fall = spiritually dead/physically alive
Humankind before death = spiritually dead/physically alive
Humankind after death = spiritually dead/physically dead
Humankind with Christ before death = spiritually alive/physically alive
Humankind with Christ after death = spiritually alive/physically dead

I don't see anything in Scripture that says man is spiritually alive or dead. How can man be spiritually alive or dead when he consists of the elements of the earth. The only spirit that is shown to be in man belongs to God. The breath of life and/or the Holy Breath.

Where do you find any of what you posted in Scripture?
 
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Saint Steven

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Where do you find any of what you posted in Scripture?
Romans 8:9-11
You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.
 
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