20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

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BABerean2

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Are you going to continue on in your errors?
What you do is not discussion or proof of your beliefs, just useless opinion.

I once knew a man on this forum who claimed there would be Thermite reactions on the moon during a future time...

What is found below is not my "opinion". Any unbiased reader can read it for themselves.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

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BABerean2

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Mount Zion, (Heb. 12:22) does NOT come down, but the city (Heb. 12: 22) does. (Rev. 21: 2)

Does the passage below say we are come unto both mount Sion, and unto heavenly Jerusalem?

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Does the text actually say what you are claiming?

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sovereigngrace

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You can't have it both ways my friend. You can't have it he's universally bound as Rev 20 states he will in the future but then jump back and say yeah but he's not really powerless now, and well he has some power.....so he has some power to deceive? Rev 20:3 states at that future time he won't. And look what you did to some of these scriptures,

Matt 12 & Mark 3 had to do with different times Jesus took authority over the devil with certain individuals.....that's not a universal binding IN FACT Jesus also stated in their life times (of the ones he delivered) the devil could come back 7 fold. Matt 12: 45

Then you have Lk 10: 18,19 where Jesus said he saw Satan fall from Heaven like lightning. Exactly. But notice he said he saw this.....before....before his resurrection when he was ministering on the earth.....It seem you're implying by having this verse in your list that this event took place when Jesus arose from the dead. And yet the Lk 10 verse was in response to the disciples using the Name of Jesus years before the resurrection.



He couldn't stop the enlightenment before the resurrection of Christ either if the culture we're willing to yield and recognize the God of heaven. And there were sometimes they'd do that.

"Then king Darius wrote unto all people, nations, and languages, that dwell in all the earth; Peace be multiplied unto you."I make a decree, That in every dominion of my kingdom men tremble and fear before the God of Daniel: for he is the living God, and stedfast for ever, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed, and his dominion shall be even unto the end. Daniel 6: 25.26

Our Lord's earthly assignment involved defeating Satan. It was a full package. But it all culminated in Christ defeating sin, death, Satan and Hades through His resurrection. But His sinless life, His atoning death and glorious resurrection cannot be divorced from each other, as you seem to be trying to do.

Justice demanded:

· Christ had to defeat sin – the source of man’s enslavement.
· He had to defeat Satan the instrument used to tempt man to sin.
· He had to defeat death (or the grave) the penalty of sin.
· He had to defeat Hades the eternal punishment for sin.

Because Christ’s mission was fully accomplished, Revelation 5:5 affirms: “behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed” Jesus testifies in Revelation 3:21: “I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.” Christ now possesses all power and authority (Matthew 28:18). Christ now holds supreme power over the kingdom of darkness. Jesus testified in Revelation 1:18: “I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys (or authority) of hell (Hades) and of death.” 1 Peter 3:22 shows that Christ, “who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God (now!!!); angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.” There is nothing that is not under His feet (1 Corinthians 15:27-28, Ephesians 1:17-23, Colossians 1:15-17 and Hebrews 1:1-3). He opens and no man shuts, He shuts and no man opens (Revelation 3:7).

Because Christ overcame, Satan and his minions are now restrained by spiritual chains in a spiritual prison (2 Peter 2:4, Jude v 6, Revelation 9:1-11 and Revelation 20:3). While there is no direct Scripture that show the actual moment when the beast is cast into the abyss, Revelation 11:7-9 and Revelation 17:7-8 show him located there during the intra-Advent period.

Scripture shows the abyss being opened near the end whereupon Satan and his demons are released from their spiritual restraint (Revelation 9:1-11 and Revelation 20:7). This parallels with the beast also rising from the abyss (Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8). This corresponds with the restraint being taken off the mystery of iniquity in 2 Thessalonians 2:7 before Christ’s return.

Daniel 7:9-11, 2 Thessalonians 2:8 and Revelation 19:19-20 show the beast being obliterated at the second coming. Isaiah 26:19-27:1 and Revelation 20:10–14 show this to be the same time when Satan is finally destroyed.

This all proves that Revelation 20 runs from Christ’s first resurrection till the second coming.
 
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sovereigngrace

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No it wasn't. 2 Cor 4 states of whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of them that believe not.....that's talking about in the time Paul was writing this long after the ascension of Christ. If Satan's power has blinded them then he's deceived them it's all the same!

Premil is always exalting the influence of Satan. It portrays a small impotent Jesus, a powerless Church and a big devil. Amil and Postmil on the other hand have a big Jesus, a powerful Church and a small devil. There is multiple Scripture that shows the redeemed have power over Satan in this new covenant period. There is not one that says he has power over us. As the light is shone through the great commission, Satan is dethroned in the lives of humans and blindfolds are removed. Christ gave the Church power over Satan and his minions. They have authority to bind Satan and spoil his goods. We are the Lord's voice, hands and feet on this earth to enforce His will!

Jesus said in Matthew 16:18-19: “I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys (or authority) of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed In heaven.”

God has entrusted power and authority to the Church in this age that the devil cannot in any way deal with or thwart. As Christians the highest authority existing on this earth has been delegated to us. Jesus Christ has commissioned us to enforce His will on this corrupt planet. He has filled us with His power. He has anointed us with His authority.

We have power over Satan since the cross! While Satan resists us, the Bible says we have power to resist him, and subjugate his purposes against us. By resisting Satan and staying steadfast we have enormous individual impact upon the kingdom of darkness; we curtail the expansion of his evil designs. This was powerfully manifested at the time of our conversion when the grip of Satan was immediately released. The claim he had upon our lives was instantly annulled and the control he brought to bare within us was immediately broke. The chains that brutally ensnared us fell off and the bondage Satan bound us with was lifted. Significantly, what is true of the individual is also true of the collective. When the Gospel penetrates into a community, city or a nation the same effect is wrought. We destroy Satan’s power, influence and delusion as we present “the glorious Gospel of Christ” through the nations. Satan cannot resist the victorious global spread of the Gospel. Through the work of the cross and in the power of the Holy Spirit, the Church clearly possesses the power to bind the devil’s activity and influence, or why would God in any way instruct His people to “resist stedfast” that great foe?

In fact, James 4:7 tells us what happens when you do resist, “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”

This is a well-tested principle that the saints of old have proved down through the years. You resist, he must flee. When the devil plants a temptation, a doubt or a fear, you simply have to resist it, whereupon Satan must get his boots on and run. This word “flee” in the original is the Greek word pheugo. It means to escape, flee away or vanish. It gives the idea of a worried foe frantically trying to get away from his captor. Now think about it. When you resist, he must disappear. The conflict today for the Church is not an earthly battle to possess an earthly territory but a spiritual battle to posses spiritual territory.

Hebrews 2:14-15 says of Christ’s great atoning death, “Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy (katargeo) him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.”

The Greek word katargeo used here to describe the fate that befell Satan. The word means to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative. It means to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency. It means to deprive of force, influence and power. It means to cause to cease, to put an end to, to do away with, to annul and to abolish.

It is interpreted in different ways in the New Testament such as ‘bring to nought’, ‘none effect’, and ‘abolish’. Satan certainly sustained a blow that impaired or restricted his movement. Undoubtedly, Satan's power to hold the nations in captivity was assaulted so that Christ could set the prisoner free throughout the nations. The Gentiles, who had been blinded for 4,000 years by the devil, would now see. The Gentiles that were nearly all pagan before the cross have been availed the wonderful opportunity to come to salvation through the victory of the cross and the consequential defeat of Satan. Whilst the majority are not saved, that doesn’t stop the nations been privileged with the truth.

The Gentiles can no longer claim ignorance. Notwithstanding, the presence of the Gospel and the acceptance of the Gospel are two completely different things. The presence of the Gospel never resulted in wholesale salvation to any nation, that is demonstrated even in the Old Testament where most Israelis rejected God’s offer of salvation. There was always only ever been a remnant amongst those who were privileged to hear the Gospel.

I have shown you many times but you choose to fight the Scriptures. Christ won the right to rule over His enemies at the right hand of majesty through His sinless life, His atoning death and His victorious resurrection. You reject this. You oppose this. You render the cross meaningless, Christ powerless and His reign fictional. You present a BIG devil and a small god.

Time and time again Scripture identifies Christ’s earthly ministry, and especially His death, burial and resurrection, as the time when the devil was spiritually restricted (or bound) from operating in his former manner. I John 3:8 declares, For this purpose the son of God was manifested, that he might destroy (or luo or undo) the works of the devil.”

The devil sustained a significant spiritual head-blow at Calvary (as predicted in Genesis 3), which has restricted his wide area of influence in this world. Countless multitudes have been rescued from the grip of Satan. Christ came with that expressed assignment to destroy the devil by bruising and crushing the serpent's head. Before the Cross he deluded all the nations of the world apart from the highly favored nation of natural Israel. Tiny Israel was the epicenter of God’s plan of salvation before the cross, although even choice Israel was in a state of apostasy when Christ arrived. This is demonstrated by the fact there were only two godly believers waiting for Him when He first appeared in the temple – Simeon and Anna.

Colossians 2:13-15 tells us: “And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh (speaking about the Gentiles), hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.”

The victory of the cross was the key to spoiling Satan's power and kingdom. It stripped him of his enormous unchallenged global influence, caused him to be dethroned in untold millions of heathen lives and ensured he was curtailed in countless Gentile villages, towns and cities throughout the world through the faithful preaching of the Word of God.
 
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Yesha

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I repeat; John was in heaven, he did see Thrones, but his visions were of earthly scenes and events.

keras, I think you may have misunderstood my appeal to thrones as evidence of the heavenly setting. My argument is that as John’s vision begins in Revelation 20:4, he sees thrones and souls. I contend that the juxtaposition of these elements in his vision indicates that the souls are in the presence of the thrones. Because the contextual evidence provides no reason to assume that these thrones exist anywhere but in heaven, I conclude that the souls are in the heavenly realm as well.

A plain reading of Revelation 20:4-6, shows that it is only those martyrs killed during the 42 month reign of the 'beast', Revelation 13:5-9, who are brought back to life. That is: they are not made immortal yet.

ALL the rest of the dead, which includes Daniel 12:13, David; Acts 13:36 and Lazarus; John 11:24, remain in their graves until the end of the Millennium and if those martyrs do die again, as their names are Written in the Book of Life, they will automatically receive immortality at the Great White Throne Judgment, after the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15

The text says that John saw the souls of “those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God” and of “those who had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.” Are these souls not inclusive of all saints since John refers to them separately in the same setting? True that the text does not say that they are raised immortal or glorified, but it does not explicitly say that the martyrs were killed during a particular 42-month period. All we read is that they are the souls of “those who had been beheaded”. I think this represents all martyrs.

1 Cor 15 takes some careful study, but here Paul is exhorting and prophesying.

In verse 24-28, he describes the end, after the Millennium. He also describes that time in verses 50-56. Proved by how it is only then that Death will be no more. Revelation 21:4

What is the contextual evidence in 1 Corinthians 15 that leads you to conclude that “In verse 24-28, he [Paul] describes the end, after the Millennium.", which millennium, per your interpretation, is a thousand year period after the Parousia? In other words, how do you conclude from 1 Corinthians 15 that Paul implies a parenthetical period between verses 23 and 24?

The teaching that anyone receives a 'glorified body', or is made immortal, before that time is false and will not happen. This truth destroys the 'rapture to heaven' theory, a Satanic deception that has fooled millions. Humans never go to live in heaven, Jesus said so; John 3:13 and eventually God and heaven come to us. Revelation 21:3

Paul anticipates his audience questioning the nature of the resurrection body.

35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?” - 1 Corinthians 15:35 (ESV)

He goes on to answer the question.

42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. - 1 Corinthians 15:42-44 (ESV)

The resurrection to which Paul refers in verse 22 is explained here. We read that the dead in Christ are raised “imperishable”, “in glory”, “in power”, and as a “spiritual body”. If this is the resurrection which you concede occurs after the return of Christ, but before the earthly millennial reign and only of the “martyrs killed during the 42 month reign of the ‘beast’”, does it not follow that your statement that “The teaching that anyone receives a ‘glorified body’, or is made immortal, before that time [‘the end, after the Millennium’] is false and will not happen” is untenable?

Satan is not 'bound' now. He is able to do whatever he wants with people who fail to put on the armor of God. Ephesians 6:11, 1 Peter 5:8-9

Obviously too, Satan can actually make people believe they are doing the work of God to murder the saints. But He will be bound after Jesus Returns, Revelation 20:1-3

Jesus himself said that by his casting out demons “the kingdom of God has come upon you” (Matt. 12:28). How can he do this unless he first binds the strongman?

28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29 Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house. - Matthew 12:28-29 (ESV)

Who is the strongman but Satan?
 
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keras

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The victory of the cross was the key to spoiling Satan's power and kingdom. It stripped him of his enormous unchallenged global influence, caused him to be dethroned in untold millions of heathen lives and ensured he was curtailed in countless Gentile villages, towns and cities throughout the world through the faithful preaching of the Word of God.
Jesus was raised from the dead and made immortal. He is the 'firstfruits' of all who will be resurrected and given Eternal life. He proved his power over Death and Satan, but He didn't disallow Satan to seduce people who allow it.
This is perfectly evident to anyone. Proved by 1 Peter 5:8-9 and by Jesus own teachings.
keras, I think you may have misunderstood my appeal to thrones as evidence of the heavenly setting. My argument is that as John’s vision begins in Revelation 20:4, he sees thrones and souls. I contend that the juxtaposition of these elements in his vision indicates that the souls are in the presence of the thrones. Because the contextual evidence provides no reason to assume that these thrones exist anywhere but in heaven, I conclude that the souls are in the heavenly realm as well.
I ask: Where is heaven?
It is a Spiritual place is it not? Therefore heaven can be anywhere and everywhere. Ezekiel and Stephen saw it while they were on earth.
Yes, all the souls of the martyrs, many millions of them; are kept under the Altar in heaven. Revelation 6:9-11 But Rev 20:4-5 clearly states that only those who had not worshipped the 'beast', or taken his mark, will be brought back to life when Jesus Returns.
They are not the same as the other martyrs and they do not receive immortality then. Eternal life is not conferred upon anyone until the GWT Judgment and the Book of Life is opened.
The rest of the dead; all the people who have ever lived await the GWT, AFTER the Millennium.
The resurrection to which Paul refers in verse 22 is explained here. We read that the dead in Christ are raised “imperishable”, “in glory”, “in power”, and as a “spiritual body”. If this is the resurrection which you concede occurs after the return of Christ, but before the earthly millennial reign and only of the “martyrs killed during the 42 month reign of the ‘beast’”, does it not follow that your statement that “The teaching that anyone receives a ‘glorified body’, or is made immortal, before that time [‘the end, after the Millennium’] is false and will not happen” is untenable?
Paul was prophesying about the time after the Millennium, the GWT Judgment. Proved by how it is only then that Death is no more. Revelation 21:4
The false teaching that many have fallen for; of 'glorified bodies' for Christians when Jesus Returns, is a fable and cannot happen. Also quite illogical, as it just doesn't work to have mortals and immortals living together.
Jesus himself said that by his casting out demons “the kingdom of God has come upon you” (Matt. 12:28). How can he do this unless he first binds the strongman?
Jesus can do it for others and we can too, but only in our own lives, or as a group proclaiming over a certain area. None of these 'bindings' is permanent if the situation changes and allows Satan to return.
ONLY when Jesus Returns, will Satan be bound.
 
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Marilyn C

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Same single city that the elect look for and which arrives at the climactic coming of Christ. There is no mention in scripture of a upper and lower city. That is a human invention.

Mmmm let`s do a bit of geography.

So Jerusalem on earth consists of the hill called Mount Zion, and on the northern side is the city. King David had his palace on Mount Zion and ruled from there. The people lived in the city further down. Thus the throne was in the upper area, Mount Zion, and the people in the city, lower down.

Then the heavenly Jerusalem is also described as the hill, Mount Zion AND the city.

..you have come to Mount Zion, AND to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem.` (Heb.12: 22)

So we see that the earthly and heavenly Jerusalem consists of Mount Zion, (upper) and the city, (lower).
 
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Marilyn C

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By your avoidance it seems like you know what the rest of us know: Pretrib is not in Scripture. If I’m wrong, please show me where the Bible teaches a rapture of the church, followed by a seven-year tribulation, followed by a third coming?

No, I`m not avoiding discussing pre-trib. BTW there is not a 3rd coming.

So let`s go to Acts 3: 20 & 21.

`(God) may send Jesus Christ,......whom heaven must receive UNTIL the times of restoration of all things, of which God has spoken about by the mouth of all His prophets since the world began.` (Acts 3: 20 & 21)

So there we see that God the Father will send Jesus at the appointed time for the beginning of the restoration of all things. We know that `all things` include heaven and earth, as Col. 1: 16 tells us, and also Job says - `And the heavens are not pure in His sight.` (Job. 15: 15)

`For by Him ALL THINGS were created that are IN HEAVEN and that are ON EARTH...` (Col. 1: 16)

So we need to go to the prophets, (as Acts 3: 20 & 21) tell us to find out what in heaven need restoring.

Do you want to comment so far?
 
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Marilyn C

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1 Corinthians 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Since it is in Christ that all are made alive, this unquestionably includes the saints before Christ.

All who are in Christ are joint-heirs, i.e. joint-heirs of His inheritance, with Him.

Romans 8
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ...

The Spirit says `WE.` Not `they` the OT saints. They are not IN CHRIST, but are made righteous because of or through Him.

You have not realised the immensity of Christ`s actual DNA, Divine nature being in the believers of the Body of Christ. That was NOT possible before Jesus lived and died and rose again.

The OT saints had to have `worked righteousness,` (Heb. 11: 33)
Whereas for us in the Body of Christ, Christ is our righteousness. (1 Cor. 1: 30)
 
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sovereigngrace

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Mmmm let`s do a bit of geography.

So Jerusalem on earth consists of the hill called Mount Zion, and on the northern side is the city. King David had his palace on Mount Zion and ruled from there. The people lived in the city further down. Thus the throne was in the upper area, Mount Zion, and the people in the city, lower down.

Then the heavenly Jerusalem is also described as the hill, Mount Zion AND the city.

..you have come to Mount Zion, AND to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem.` (Heb.12: 22)

So we see that the earthly and heavenly Jerusalem consists of Mount Zion, (upper) and the city, (lower).

Jerusalem below only served as an imperfect type of heavenly Jerusalem. It has served it typical purpose, and has been suitably judged.

Here is a study I have done on this.

Before His death, in Matthew 23, we see Christ condemning the Jews rejection of Himself (and His impending atonement). He thus pronounced eight ‘woes’ upon them, and declared, “ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?”

He continued, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.”

This was a prologue to what He was going to say, in Matthew 24. After all, there is no chapter divisions in the original. The next verses and chapter – Matthew 24:1-2 – then significantly commences, “And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? Verily I say unto you, there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

Luke’s account embodies both the end of Matthew 23 and the beginning Matthew 24, saying, “And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it” (Luke 19:41). The disciples asked two important questions in response, in Matthew 24. Christ then said, “if thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! But now they are hid from thine eyes” (Luke 19:42).

And continues, “for the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, and shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation” (Luke 19:43-44).

Christ’s denunciations are in full keeping with the New Testament’s view of earthly Jerusalem. Old Jerusalem is likened in this new covenant period unto Sodom and Egypt in Revelation 11. Revelation 11:8 describes physical Jerusalem today as: “the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.” This description was definitely not intended to be a commendation of Jerusalem, but to describe it for exactly what it was/is. Many modern pro-Israel commentators today would probably throw the charge of anti-Semitic at such a charge, however, this indictment came from the Holy Spirit.

Jerusalem, Sodom and Egypt are three very prominent biblical places, all of which are notable for their great rebellion against Almighty God and His repeated warnings. Notwithstanding, they are all especially remembered for the terrible judgment that befell them as a consequence of their iniquitous transgressions. All, significantly, stand to this day as a solemn and perpetual warning of how God deals with the wicked and their gross disobedience against His precepts.

As you get into the New Testament you quickly realize that physical Jerusalem is no longer considered true Zion (or Sion). Under the new covenant, Zion is heavenly, spiritual and eternal not earthly, physical and temporal. Natural Jerusalem was decimated because of the rejection of their Messiah in AD70. Christ-rejecting Israel was stripped of its favored position by rejecting its Messiah. It is depicted in Scripture as an example of religious apostasy and stubborn rebellion.

Paul (that Hebrew of the Hebrews) says of earthly Jerusalem, in Galatians 4:25, “Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.”

We see the two Jerusalems compared and contrasted here, representing two different distinct peoples – God’s elect and the lost. The earthly city is a symbol of bondage, ruin and rebellion, whereas the heavenly city is used as a picture of freedom and spiritual prosperity. Unfortunately, many today look to the wrong Jerusalem and elevate the wrong Israel. They seem to forget: the old temporal earthly type has been replaced by the new heavenly eternal reality.

Paul continues, “Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son [Jerusalem below and her offspring]: for the son of the bondwoman shall NOT be heir with the son of the freewoman [those who belong to Jerusalem above]. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman [Jerusalem below], but of the free [Jerusalem above]” (Galatians 4:28-31).

The offspring of the bondwoman relates to the natural progeny of Abraham “after the flesh.” The Holy Spirit instructs: “Cast out the bondwoman and her son.” Why? “For the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” The fact is, they are not the children of promise. Under the new covenant, natural Jerusalem is no longer the Zion of God. That city and its children (natural Israelis) are considered to be in religious bondage. Those who belong to true Jerusalem (heavenly Jerusalem) are all those that know Christ. Those who do not know Christ are in bondage and are of their father the devil.

Hebrews 11:8-10 describes how our great father of the faith, the Patriarch, Abraham looked for that great heavenly city, saying, “By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: for he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.”

The Greek word for “strange” here (as in “strange country") is allotrios which actually means another's, or not one's own; by extension foreign, not akin, hostile. The earthly Promised Land was not the true home of God’s Old Testament people. It was not the place of true peace and rest. Many enemies resided within those borders, and much trouble and strife continued there even when Israel took her promised borders. The children of Israel were indeed “strangers and pilgrims on the earth.” This world was not their home. Basically, they were strangers in a strange land.

Hebrews 11:8-10 is clearly talking about Old Testament earthly Israel. It is talking about the ancient promised land. The text is talking about the patriarchs’ sojourn in the earthly Canaan land. It notably describes Abraham’s experience there as “a stranger in a foreign country.” There is no other interpretation. It also describes his honorable son Isaac and grandson Jacob’s experiences to be the same as his own. This totally blows apart the premillennialist fixation with the Old Testament promised land. This shows that physical Israel and its ancient boundaries were never intended to be the true promised land or the eternal inheritance. It confirms that it was never envisioned to be the eternal possession of natural Israel or God’s people. It was clearly conditional and temporal land.

Hebrews 11:9 tells us that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were “the heirs with him of the same promise” (Hebrews 11:9). What promise? The next verse explains: “For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God” (Hebrews 11:10).

The Patriarchs eyes were on higher, better and longer-lasting things than Canaan. This is something our Dispensational brethren would be wise to imitate. The Patriarchs eyes were on the heavenly city that Christ is preparing for those that are His. Their eyes were upon eternal matters. Their focus was heavenly. Even though they were promised an earthly piece of real estate their hope was always heavenly. It says here that Abraham: “looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.” That city was clearly the New Jerusalem. The possession of this city has been the goal of every believer from the beginning.

Hebrews 11:13-16 says, specifically speaking of the great Old Testament champions of faith, “These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”

Here, in easily comprehensible language, we see the focus and overriding desire of these Old Testament heroes of the faith (nearly all of whom had accessed the old Jerusalem in their lifetime) revealed. They plainly desired a “prepared” heavenly city. Like Abraham and the Old Testament saints of old, our eyes should be fixed upon another country, not an earthly, and a city that is not built with hands or can be touched or visited in this fleeting life. This is repeated throughout the New Testament. The children of God regardless of their birthday are born from above.

It wasn’t just Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that were strangers in their ethnic homeland; so were all the rest of the old covenant saints who populated national Israel. Hebrews 11:12 describes Abraham’s natural seed as “so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. the sand of the sea.” And even though most of them at some juncture populated the area promised from the Euphrates River to the River of Egypt, the Hebrew writer testifies to the fact that “These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth” (Hebrews 11:13).

Obviously, the taking of the natural, earthly, temporal land was not what it was all about. There was something better, higher and longer-lasting that was promised to them that would fulfil Israel’s deepest desires – something greater than real estate in the Middle East. It was the Messiah Jesus Christ and the perfected state that comes at His appearing in the form of the new corrupt-free, sin-free, death-free, wicked-free, eternal perfect earth.

Even though the Old Testament giants of the faith are described as “not having received the promises,” the Scripture say that they “seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them.” What is more, they “confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth”

The Old Testament saints, like those in the New Testament, looked forth to a “prepared” eternal heavenly city, not a physical temporal earthly one. Their eyes were therefore not below but above. Scripture plainly tells us that that “place” is called the New Jerusalem – the eternal home of the beloved. The Premillennialist that looks for old Jerusalem at the Second Coming is evidently focused upon the wrong city.

When Hebrews says: God has “prepared” for them (the Old Testament saints) a city (Hebrews 11:16), it is not talking about earthly carnal man-made Jerusalem, that has rejected and killed Christ, the prophets and the Apostles. It is not talking about a city that is denounced under the new covenant by the Holy Spirit as “spiritually … called Sodom and Egypt” (Revelation 11:8) and is further condemned as being “in bondage with her children” in Galatians 4:25. This is speaking of the heavenly city, which we belong to today, which is “free.” This is the only city that God is preparing! It is unbiblical and nonsensical to believe that he is preparing earthly Jerusalem for the saints. The new Jerusalem is being prepared in heaven, as we can see through many Scriptures.

Like Abraham and the Old Testament saints of old, our eyes should be fixed upon another country, not an earthly, and a city that is not built with hands or can be touched or visited in this fleeting life. That “place,” which Christ is preparing us, and for which His people are patiently waiting, is identified as an actual city in Hebrews 13:14. The passage says, for here (that is on this earth) have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.” The city we look for is not a physical temporal earthly city sitting in the center of natural Israel, but rather a heavenly eternal city. It is the New Jerusalem, which Christ is presently preparing. Earthly Jerusalem is clearly with us now, and under judgment, whereas the New Jerusalem in all its glory is still to come.
 
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Marilyn C

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Does the passage below say we are come unto both mount Sion, and unto heavenly Jerusalem?

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Does the text actually say what you are claiming?

.

I agree. Heb. 12: 22 - 24 says that we come to Mount Zion AND the city, the heavenly Jerusalem.

On earth, Mount Zion was the thronal area where King David ruled, and the city, was where the people dwelt. It was a representation of the heavenly Jerusalem.

So in Heb. 12 we read of the Mount and the city.

Then in Ps. 2 we read that the God the Father tells us He will set His King on His holy hill of Mount Zion. (Ps. 2: 6) Thus we see that Mount Zion represents the thronal area of rulership.

Then we read in Rev. 21: 2 that the city does not stay in the third realm (angelic area) but `comes down out of heaven FROM God.`

We need to read All the scriptures of what God is saying on a topic to get the complete picture and full understanding.
 
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sovereigngrace

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The Spirit says `WE.` Not `they` the OT saints. They are not IN CHRIST, but are made righteous because of or through Him.

You have not realised the immensity of Christ`s actual DNA, Divine nature being in the believers of the Body of Christ. That was NOT possible before Jesus lived and died and rose again.

The OT saints had to have `worked righteousness,` (Heb. 11: 33)
Whereas for us in the Body of Christ, Christ is our righteousness. (1 Cor. 1: 30)

Totally wrong! Your teachers have taught you wrong.

This is a common misconception among some Dispys that Old Testament Jews were saved by way of keeping the Law. But we know from Scripture that that is untrue. Anything dependent upon man is doomed to failure. The Old Testament makes clear, man’s own puny religious efforts were considered futile in regard to being meritorious before God. Isaiah 64:6 makes clear: “But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.” Jeremiah 17:5 tells us: “Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm.”

Dispensationalist literature is also constantly promoting the concept of national salvation. But this too is a misrepresentation of scriptural truth. Salvation has always been individual. John L. Nuelsen writes: “The sin of Israel is recognized as the sin of the individual, which can be removed only by individual repentance and cleansing. This is best seen from the stirring appeals of the prophets of the exile, where frequently the necessity of a change of attitude toward Yahweh is preached as a means to such regeneration. This cannot be understood otherwise than as a turning of the individual to the Lord. Here, too, no ceremony or sacrifice is sufficient, but an interposition of divine grace, which is represented under the figure of a washing and sprinkling from all iniquity and sin (Isa 1:18; Jer 13:23)” (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia Online).

Salvation has always been an act of God’s sovereign grace. It is so because none of us deserve it and none of us has ever had the ability to save ourselves. God initiates it because we are in a hopeless helpless deluded spiritual state and are running in the wrong direction. But praise God: His grace is stronger than our stubbornness.

God’s relationship with man has always involved certain standard elements throughout Scripture (both Old Testament and New Testament). There has always been:

1. The revelation of God (or the covenant maker).
2. His affirmation to man of a personal intimate relationship with Him (or the covenant contract).
3. The covenant doorway into covenant relationship.
4. The fruit of covenant participation (or man’s covenant responsibility) – a holy lifestyle.

Favor with God in both economies is the same in substance

· God reveals Himself to man.
· The formula in both eras is the same: “I will be your God, you will be my people.”
· Man responds through faith and repentance. The recurring pattern in Scripture is: God initiates and His people respond by believing Him.
· The evidence of a real encounter with the Creator is seen in a new birth and a changed life. This involves a personal love for the Almighty, a desire to obey His commands and a holy lifestyle.
· The necessity of a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin is a theme that runs throughout the whole of Scripture.
· A looking to, and a dependence on, God’s Messiah is at the heart of God’s plan for mankind in both Testaments.
· The elect are normally a small remnant within the overall professing world around them. They are those whom God has chosen for Himself in eternity.

Paul says in Romans 3:20, by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight.”

Romans 11:6 says, if it be of works, then is it no more grace.”

Galatians 2:16 declares, a man is not justified by the works of the lawfor by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”

Ephesians 2:9 says, Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

Titus 3:5-7 says, Not by works of righteousness which we have done.”

Philippians 3:10 says, “not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law.”

James 2:10 makes a solemn declaration for all of us: “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.”

The Old Testament saints looked forward to the cross, we look back. They knew “by faith” that God had a final perfect sacrifice for sin. It was like a post-dated check. They were regenerated on the grounds of the certainty of the impending redemptive work of Messiah.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I agree. Heb. 12: 22 - 24 says that we come to Mount Zion AND the city, the heavenly Jerusalem.

On earth, Mount Zion was the thronal area where King David ruled, and the city, was where the people dwelt. It was a representation of the heavenly Jerusalem.

So in Heb. 12 we read of the Mount and the city.

Then in Ps. 2 we read that the God the Father tells us He will set His King on His holy hill of Mount Zion. (Ps. 2: 6) Thus we see that Mount Zion represents the thronal area of rulership.

Then we read in Rev. 21: 2 that the city does not stay in the third realm (angelic area) but `comes down out of heaven FROM God.`

We need to read All the scriptures of what God is saying on a topic to get the complete picture and full understanding.

Earthly Jerusalem is in under ongoing judgment. She has been rendered redundant in the purposes of God through the intro of the new covenant. There will be no further covenant after this covenant.
 
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Marilyn C

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Jerusalem below only served as an imperfect type of heavenly Jerusalem. It has served it typical purpose, and has been suitably judged.

Here is a study I have done on this.

Before His death, in Matthew 23, we see Christ condemning the Jews rejection of Himself (and His impending atonement). He thus pronounced eight ‘woes’ upon them, and declared, “ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?”

He continued, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.”

This was a prologue to what He was going to say, in Matthew 24. After all, there is no chapter divisions in the original. The next verses and chapter – Matthew 24:1-2 – then significantly commences, “And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? Verily I say unto you, there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

Luke’s account embodies both the end of Matthew 23 and the beginning Matthew 24, saying, “And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it” (Luke 19:41). The disciples asked two important questions in response, in Matthew 24. Christ then said, “if thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! But now they are hid from thine eyes” (Luke 19:42).

And continues, “for the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, and shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation” (Luke 19:43-44).

Christ’s denunciations are in full keeping with the New Testament’s view of earthly Jerusalem. Old Jerusalem is likened in this new covenant period unto Sodom and Egypt in Revelation 11. Revelation 11:8 describes physical Jerusalem today as: “the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.” This description was definitely not intended to be a commendation of Jerusalem, but to describe it for exactly what it was/is. Many modern pro-Israel commentators today would probably throw the charge of anti-Semitic at such a charge, however, this indictment came from the Holy Spirit.

Jerusalem, Sodom and Egypt are three very prominent biblical places, all of which are notable for their great rebellion against Almighty God and His repeated warnings. Notwithstanding, they are all especially remembered for the terrible judgment that befell them as a consequence of their iniquitous transgressions. All, significantly, stand to this day as a solemn and perpetual warning of how God deals with the wicked and their gross disobedience against His precepts.

As you get into the New Testament you quickly realize that physical Jerusalem is no longer considered true Zion (or Sion). Under the new covenant, Zion is heavenly, spiritual and eternal not earthly, physical and temporal. Natural Jerusalem was decimated because of the rejection of their Messiah in AD70. Christ-rejecting Israel was stripped of its favored position by rejecting its Messiah. It is depicted in Scripture as an example of religious apostasy and stubborn rebellion.

Paul (that Hebrew of the Hebrews) says of earthly Jerusalem, in Galatians 4:25, “Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.”

We see the two Jerusalems compared and contrasted here, representing two different distinct peoples – God’s elect and the lost. The earthly city is a symbol of bondage, ruin and rebellion, whereas the heavenly city is used as a picture of freedom and spiritual prosperity. Unfortunately, many today look to the wrong Jerusalem and elevate the wrong Israel. They seem to forget: the old temporal earthly type has been replaced by the new heavenly eternal reality.

Paul continues, “Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son [Jerusalem below and her offspring]: for the son of the bondwoman shall NOT be heir with the son of the freewoman [those who belong to Jerusalem above]. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman [Jerusalem below], but of the free [Jerusalem above]” (Galatians 4:28-31).

The offspring of the bondwoman relates to the natural progeny of Abraham “after the flesh.” The Holy Spirit instructs: “Cast out the bondwoman and her son.” Why? “For the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” The fact is, they are not the children of promise. Under the new covenant, natural Jerusalem is no longer the Zion of God. That city and its children (natural Israelis) are considered to be in religious bondage. Those who belong to true Jerusalem (heavenly Jerusalem) are all those that know Christ. Those who do not know Christ are in bondage and are of their father the devil.

Hebrews 11:8-10 describes how our great father of the faith, the Patriarch, Abraham looked for that great heavenly city, saying, “By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: for he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.”

The Greek word for “strange” here (as in “strange country") is allotrios which actually means another's, or not one's own; by extension foreign, not akin, hostile. The earthly Promised Land was not the true home of God’s Old Testament people. It was not the place of true peace and rest. Many enemies resided within those borders, and much trouble and strife continued there even when Israel took her promised borders. The children of Israel were indeed “strangers and pilgrims on the earth.” This world was not their home. Basically, they were strangers in a strange land.

Hebrews 11:8-10 is clearly talking about Old Testament earthly Israel. It is talking about the ancient promised land. The text is talking about the patriarchs’ sojourn in the earthly Canaan land. It notably describes Abraham’s experience there as “a stranger in a foreign country.” There is no other interpretation. It also describes his honorable son Isaac and grandson Jacob’s experiences to be the same as his own. This totally blows apart the premillennialist fixation with the Old Testament promised land. This shows that physical Israel and its ancient boundaries were never intended to be the true promised land or the eternal inheritance. It confirms that it was never envisioned to be the eternal possession of natural Israel or God’s people. It was clearly conditional and temporal land.

Hebrews 11:9 tells us that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were “the heirs with him of the same promise” (Hebrews 11:9). What promise? The next verse explains: “For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God” (Hebrews 11:10).

The Patriarchs eyes were on higher, better and longer-lasting things than Canaan. This is something our Dispensational brethren would be wise to imitate. The Patriarchs eyes were on the heavenly city that Christ is preparing for those that are His. Their eyes were upon eternal matters. Their focus was heavenly. Even though they were promised an earthly piece of real estate their hope was always heavenly. It says here that Abraham: “looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.” That city was clearly the New Jerusalem. The possession of this city has been the goal of every believer from the beginning.

Hebrews 11:13-16 says, specifically speaking of the great Old Testament champions of faith, “These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”

Here, in easily comprehensible language, we see the focus and overriding desire of these Old Testament heroes of the faith (nearly all of whom had accessed the old Jerusalem in their lifetime) revealed. They plainly desired a “prepared” heavenly city. Like Abraham and the Old Testament saints of old, our eyes should be fixed upon another country, not an earthly, and a city that is not built with hands or can be touched or visited in this fleeting life. This is repeated throughout the New Testament. The children of God regardless of their birthday are born from above.

It wasn’t just Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that were strangers in their ethnic homeland; so were all the rest of the old covenant saints who populated national Israel. Hebrews 11:12 describes Abraham’s natural seed as “so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. the sand of the sea.” And even though most of them at some juncture populated the area promised from the Euphrates River to the River of Egypt, the Hebrew writer testifies to the fact that “These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth” (Hebrews 11:13).

Obviously, the taking of the natural, earthly, temporal land was not what it was all about. There was something better, higher and longer-lasting that was promised to them that would fulfil Israel’s deepest desires – something greater than real estate in the Middle East. It was the Messiah Jesus Christ and the perfected state that comes at His appearing in the form of the new corrupt-free, sin-free, death-free, wicked-free, eternal perfect earth.

Even though the Old Testament giants of the faith are described as “not having received the promises,” the Scripture say that they “seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them.” What is more, they “confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth”

The Old Testament saints, like those in the New Testament, looked forth to a “prepared” eternal heavenly city, not a physical temporal earthly one. Their eyes were therefore not below but above. Scripture plainly tells us that that “place” is called the New Jerusalem – the eternal home of the beloved. The Premillennialist that looks for old Jerusalem at the Second Coming is evidently focused upon the wrong city.

When Hebrews says: God has “prepared” for them (the Old Testament saints) a city (Hebrews 11:16), it is not talking about earthly carnal man-made Jerusalem, that has rejected and killed Christ, the prophets and the Apostles. It is not talking about a city that is denounced under the new covenant by the Holy Spirit as “spiritually … called Sodom and Egypt” (Revelation 11:8) and is further condemned as being “in bondage with her children” in Galatians 4:25. This is speaking of the heavenly city, which we belong to today, which is “free.” This is the only city that God is preparing! It is unbiblical and nonsensical to believe that he is preparing earthly Jerusalem for the saints. The new Jerusalem is being prepared in heaven, as we can see through many Scriptures.

Like Abraham and the Old Testament saints of old, our eyes should be fixed upon another country, not an earthly, and a city that is not built with hands or can be touched or visited in this fleeting life. That “place,” which Christ is preparing us, and for which His people are patiently waiting, is identified as an actual city in Hebrews 13:14. The passage says, for here (that is on this earth) have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.” The city we look for is not a physical temporal earthly city sitting in the center of natural Israel, but rather a heavenly eternal city. It is the New Jerusalem, which Christ is presently preparing. Earthly Jerusalem is clearly with us now, and under judgment, whereas the New Jerusalem in all its glory is still to come.

I definitely agree with a lot of your good work in that study. Yes the OT saints `looked for that city whose builder and maker was God,` Wasn`t that amazing that they had that revelation of a heavenly city and not an earthly one. Many were killed in horrendous ways, (Heb. 11: 33 - 38).

And we see that they through faith in God for that promise are kept in the General Assembly till the time of the New heavens and New earth time, when the New Jerusalem will come down out of heaven FROM God.

So it seems we agree there. Great.

Now we need to look a bit closer at what is promised for us, the Body of Christ.

` God having provided SOMETHING BETTER for US.` (Heb. 11: 40)

In the Greek the SOMETHING BETTER, means a GREATER DOMINION.

Then looking at your scripture Heb.13: 12 - 15.

`Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood suffered outside the gate. Therefore let us go forth TO HIM, outside the camp, bearing His reproach. For here we seek NO CONTINUING CITY but we SEEK THE ONE to come. Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God...` (Heb. 13: 12 - 15)

In the context we see that `the ONE,` refers to the Lord for it is to Him that we seek, going forth to Him.
 
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Marilyn C

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Earthly Jerusalem is in under ongoing judgment. She has been rendered redundant in the purposes of God through the intro of the new covenant. There will be no further covenant after this covenant.

Yes earthly Jerusalem is undergoing chastisement, however God does NOT forget His promises to Abraham, that His descendants will be numerous and important -

1. As the sand of the sea - Predominant nation (ruler) on the earth.
2. As the stars of the heavens - Prominent nation in the heavenlies, (OT saints in the New Jerusalem).

And note the Predominant group in the highest realm, is the Body of Christ, with the Lord on His throne on Mount Zion. (Ps. 2: 6)

`(Father) I have set my King on my holy hill of Zion.` (Ps. 2: 6)
 
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sovereigngrace

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Yes earthly Jerusalem is undergoing chastisement, however God does NOT forget His promises to Abraham, that His descendants will be numerous and important -

1. As the sand of the sea - Predominant nation (ruler) on the earth.
2. As the stars of the heavens - Prominent nation in the heavenlies, (OT saints in the New Jerusalem).

And note the Predominant group in the highest realm, is the Body of Christ, with the Lord on His throne on Mount Zion. (Ps. 2: 6)

`(Father) I have set my King on my holy hill of Zion.` (Ps. 2: 6)

Please read what I posted, which forbids your deduction. Abraham was unlike the Dispys, He looked for the heavenly city, with all the OT saints. You are looking to the wrong Jerusalem.
 
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Marilyn C

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Please read what I posted, which forbids your deduction. Abraham was unlike the Dispys, He looked for the heavenly city, with all the OT saints. You are looking to the wrong Jerusalem.

I agree that Abraham looked for the heavenly city.
 
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Marilyn C

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Totally wrong! Your teachers have taught you wrong.

This is a common misconception among some Dispys that Old Testament Jews were saved by way of keeping the Law. .

I didn`t say the Jews we saved by keeping the Law. I quoted what God says concerning them -

`...who through faith subdued kingdoms, WORKED RIGHTEOUSNESS, obtained promises...` (Heb. 11" 33)
 
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I didn`t say the Jews we saved by keeping the Law. I quoted what God says concerning them -

`...who through faith subdued kingdoms, WORKED RIGHTEOUSNESS, obtained promises...` (Heb. 11" 33)

The Holy Spirit within the believer in both Testaments produces righteousness. Ephesians 2:8-9 teaches: “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

Some people do not read the next verse, Ephesians 2:10 tells us: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”
 
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