Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us,

[Studyman]

Col. 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

I have heard it proclaimed by religious men, who come in Christ's Name, that the "Handwriting of ordinances" which are against us, are the Good, Just, and Holy Laws, Commandments, and Statutes of God, given to Moses and Aaron to give to God's People.

I am interested in locating exactly where these handwritten ordinances, which were against God's People, are located as, for the life of me, I can not find a Command from God to HIS People that was "Against them".

In fact, the only "laws" I found in the Holy scriptures that were against men, was the doctrines and Commandments of men Jesus said the mainstream preachers of HIS Time burdened His People with. I am hoping to open up an honest, unbiased discussion about who's ordinances were taken out of the way, who were the "principalities and powers" which promoted these "handwritten ordinances", who was make a show of openly, and who was triumphed over.

If God's "handwriting of ordinances" are the ones that are against us, then God must be the "principalities and powers" that was "Spoiled". If God was the Author of the handwritten ordinances which was contrary to us, then did Jesus make a show of God openly? If God's Commandments and Laws are the handwritten ordinances that were against us, then did Jesus Triumph over God by "taking His Laws, Statutes, and Commandments "out of the way"?

Somehow I don't believe this is the message Paul was sending.

What do you think?

 

[HTacianas]

Col. 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

I have heard it proclaimed by religious men, who come in Christ's Name, that the "Handwriting of ordinances" which are against us, are the Good, Just, and Holy Laws, Commandments, and Statutes of God, given to Moses and Aaron to give to God's People.

I am interested in locating exactly where these handwritten ordinances, which were against God's People, are located as, for the life of me, I can not find a Command from God to HIS People that was "Against them".

In fact, the only "laws" I found in the Holy scriptures that were against men, was the doctrines and Commandments of men Jesus said the mainstream preachers of HIS Time burdened His People with. I am hoping to open up an honest, unbiased discussion about who's ordinances were taken out of the way, who were the "principalities and powers" which promoted these "handwritten ordinances", who was make a show of openly, and who was triumphed over.

If God's "handwriting of ordinances" are the ones that are against us, then God must be the "principalities and powers" that was "Spoiled". If God was the Author of the handwritten ordinances which was contrary to us, then did Jesus make a show of God openly? If God's Commandments and Laws are the handwritten ordinances that were against us, then did Jesus Triumph over God by "taking His Laws, Statutes, and Commandments "out of the way"?

Somehow I don't believe this is the message Paul was sending.

What do you think?

How do you tell the difference between "religious men, who come in Christ's Name" and false prophets? Does a person wake up one morning and decide "today I will become a heretic"? Or do they honestly believe what they are telling you?

If you look into that question you will find your answer.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Col. 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

I have heard it proclaimed by religious men, who come in Christ's Name, that the "Handwriting of ordinances" which are against us, are the Good, Just, and Holy Laws, Commandments, and Statutes of God, given to Moses and Aaron to give to God's People.

I am interested in locating exactly where these handwritten ordinances, which were against God's People, are located as, for the life of me, I can not find a Command from God to HIS People that was "Against them".

In fact, the only "laws" I found in the Holy scriptures that were against men, was the doctrines and Commandments of men Jesus said the mainstream preachers of HIS Time burdened His People with. I am hoping to open up an honest, unbiased discussion about who's ordinances were taken out of the way, who were the "principalities and powers" which promoted these "handwritten ordinances", who was make a show of openly, and who was triumphed over.

If God's "handwriting of ordinances" are the ones that are against us, then God must be the "principalities and powers" that was "Spoiled". If God was the Author of the handwritten ordinances which was contrary to us, then did Jesus make a show of God openly? If God's Commandments and Laws are the handwritten ordinances that were against us, then did Jesus Triumph over God by "taking His Laws, Statutes, and Commandments "out of the way"?

Somehow I don't believe this is the message Paul was sending.

What do you think?

God wrote the 10 commandments and Moses wrote another 600 or so. Every time we violate one of God's laws, we have a record of debt. In those days it was a "certificate of debt". Sin is a debt we owe God. Lord Jesus paid for it. It used to be the practice for drinkers at a pub to have a slate. We'd call it a tab these days. Each purchase was recorded on the slate. At the end of the night, the patron would pay up and the slate would be wiped. I witnessed this one night when my dad took me to the pub with him. That's where we get the expression "wiping the slate clean". Satan is the accuser of the brethren. He accuses us before God day and night. He appeals to God's holy character and righteous nature. If we do not confess our sin and plead the blood of Christ, the debt remains on the books, so to speak. As soon as we confess, our sin is wiped and we have a clear conscience and fellowship is restored with God.

 

[expos4ever]

I think this is a great question. I believe that Paul is, in fact, referring to the Law of Moses (the 613 element code presented in the Old Testament). It is understandably confusing to grapple with the notion that these laws were "against" the Jew. But there is evidence that Paul does indeed believe that Law of Moses had a "dark" side. Please read Romans 7 with an open mind. Is Paul not quite clearly proclaiming that the Law of Moses empowers (rather than merely "exposing") our internal tendency to sin?

 

[Studyman]

How do you tell the difference between "religious men, who come in Christ's Name" and false prophets? Does a person wake up one morning and decide "today I will become a heretic"? Or do they honestly believe what they are telling you?

If you look into that question you will find your answer.

That is a good opening question.

I have no doubt that Eve didn't say in her mind "I will go to Adam, and deceive Him". Or that when Paul was killing true believers, he truly thought he was serving the true God. Men can be convinced to believe and do many things, some quite awful, in the name of Christ.

Paul hit's on this in Col. 2.

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

I will let the Scriptures answer your opening question.

1 Jn. 1:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Thanks for the thought provoking reply.

 

[Studyman]

God wrote the 10 commandments and Moses wrote another 600 or so. Every time we violate one of God's laws, we have a record of debt. In those days it was a "certificate of debt". Sin is a debt we owe God. Lord Jesus paid for it. It used to be the practice for drinkers at a pub to have a slate. We'd call it a tab these days. Each purchase was recorded on the slate. At the end of the night, the patron would pay up and the slate would be wiped. I witnessed this one night when my dad took me to the pub with him. That's where we get the expression "wiping the slate clean". Satan is the accuser of the brethren. He accuses us before God day and night. He appeals to God's holy character and righteous nature. If we do not confess our sin and plead the blood of Christ, the debt remains on the books, so to speak. As soon as we confess, our sin is wiped and we have a clear conscience and fellowship is restored with God.

thanks for the reply.

So where did you find the teaching that God gave Moses 610 Laws for a man to follow?

I'm not sure I agree with your analogy. If you are equating atonement with Jesus paying our bar tab for us, what does that mean?

Do we now drink for free, since Jesus paid our tab? And what is the "handwriting of ordinances" which are against us, in this analogy, that is taken out of the way? The price list? The menu?

 

[Aussie Pete]

thanks for the reply.

So where did you find the teaching that God gave Moses 610 Laws for a man to follow?

I'm not sure I agree with your analogy. If you are equating atonement with Jesus paying our bar tab for us, what does that mean?

Do we now drink for free, since Jesus paid our tab? And what is the "handwriting of ordinances" which are against us, in this analogy, that is taken out of the way? The price list? The menu?

Some kind soul counted just how many rules and regulations were imposed on the nation of Israel. It was not me. I'm told that there are 613 if you wish to be exact.

Sin is a debt we owe God. Every time we break a commandment, it is recorded against us. The wages of sin is death. One sin killed the whole human race. There is nothing that we can do to repay the debt. Why? We are already dead in trespass and sin. The bar tab analogy is just that, an analogy. You could change it to a credit card if it helps. I know someone with a $60,000 debt, husband unemployed, with 4 children. She will never get out of debt. Now if someone else paid the debt, she would be free.

Lord Jesus paid the debt that we owed God by dying on the Cross for us. "The life of the being is in the blood". When Lord Jesus shed His blood, which was sinless, He poured out His life and so paid the debt on behalf of the whole human race. The question is, will we accept His gift? If we receive Christ, we receive His gift of forgiveness of the debt we owe God. If we do not, our sin remains unpaid.

 

[Studyman]

I think this is a great question. I believe that Paul is, in fact, referring to the Law of Moses (the 613 element code presented in the Old Testament). It is understandably confusing to grapple with the notion that these laws were "against" the Jew. But there is evidence that Paul does indeed believe that Law of Moses had a "dark" side. Please read Romans 7 with an open mind. Is Paul not quite clearly proclaiming that the Law of Moses empowers (rather than merely "exposing") our internal tendency to sin?

Well first, where in the world did you get the teaching that God Placed 613 Laws on the Children of Israel? Such a teaching is not true.

So then you believe the handwriting of ordinances which are against us, are ordinances written by God. So then the Principalities and Powers Jesus Spoiled was God? Jesus Triumphed over God?

Yes, I do find this doctrine hard to accept. If Jesus nailed His Fathers Laws to the Cross, why is Paul still serving them with his mind in Rom. 7?

Rom. 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me?

This is the question you are implying, yes? This would be a "dark side" of God's Word. That HE created these Laws to Kill us, destroy us. And Jesus came to save us, not from our own rebellion, stubbornness, pride, selfishness, etc. But save us from these Laws of God that are a burden and Yoke of Bondage HE placed on the Necks of the People HE claimed to Love.

But Paul knows/believes that God is Good, Just, Holy, and HIS LAWS as Just, Holy and Good. So he asked the question "Did God create these Laws to destroy me"?

Then he answered the question.

God forbid. (NO) But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

The death penalty wasn't placed on us for transgressing God's Commandments to destroy us, but to teach us just how evil, wicked and very, very, exceedingly BAD it is to live in disobedience to God's Instructions. In this way the mind of God and the mind of men are aligned. We look at sin/transgression of God's Laws, the same way HE does, which helps us in the race that is set before us, striving against sin. As Paul concludes;

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (death)

Isn't Paul saying His mind is renewed, no longer one of the "Children of Disobedience", while his flesh is crucified with Christ, no longer directing his foot steps?

These are good discussions to have in these evil times, in my view.

 

[expos4ever]

Well first, where in the world did you get the teaching that God Placed 613 Laws on the Children of Israel? Such a teaching is not true.

The number of commands is arguably not relevant. However, I suggest no Biblical Scholar would deny that the Old Testament shows that God provided the Israelites with a written code.

 

[expos4ever]

So then you believe the handwriting of ordinances which are against us, are ordinances written by God.

Yes. I understand why that seems strange, but I am only taking Paul at his word.

Yes, I do find this doctrine hard to accept. If Jesus nailed His Fathers Laws to the Cross, why is Paul still serving them with his mind in Rom. 7?

Rom. 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me?

This is a good question, but if you read through the end of chapter 7 and on into 8, it is clear that, for Paul the Christian, these verses in chapter 7 lie in the past - this is really quite indisputable and (later) I will be happy to argue the case in detail.

But, as you point out, if I am right about this, why is Paul writing in the present tense here in chapter 7. I believe the answer is that he is identifying with the current plight of his fellow Jew who is struggling under the Law of Moses. This may seem contrived, but there is evidence from elsewhere in Romans that supports this idea. No time for that now, I will get back to you.

But, either way, the logic of the flow of Romans 7 into Romans 8 leaves basically no doubt that Paul the believer has left these verses from Romans 7 in the rear view mirror.

More later.

 

[Studyman]

Some kind soul counted just how many rules and regulations were imposed on the nation of Israel. It was not me. I'm told that there are 613 if you wish to be exact.

The number of commands is arguably not relevant. However, I suggest no Biblical Scholar would deny that the Old Testament shows that God provided the Israelites with a written code.

The purpose of the 613 law myth being promoted is that God placed laws so burdensome, so many in number, that it was impossible for man to keep them. Then God killed and tortured those who didn’t keep them. This popular belief can not be supported by Scripture. At least I can not find them. Please show me where the Scriptures promote such a teaching.

Did God create men and then give His creation instruction? Certainly, like the perfect Father that He is. So Yes, God gave His people written instructions for their good.

Was it these instructions that led Israel astray, or the doctrines and commandments and philosophy of religious men who transgressed Gods commandments?

For me it’s about what the Scriptures day, more than what religious traditions or doctrines say.

If I am convinced of a falsehood, like God Gave His people so many laws, so impossible to keep that it was impossible to keep them, but He killed them anyway, this “leaven” can influence my whole belief.

This is why it is important to “beware” of religious philosophies and traditions of men.

 

[expos4ever]

The purpose of the 613 law myth being promoted is that God placed laws so burdensome, so many in number, that it was impossible for man to keep them. Then God killed and tortured those who didn’t keep them. This popular belief can not be supported by Scripture. At least I can not find them. Please show me where the Scriptures promote such a teaching.

Who said this? Certainly not me.

 

[Studyman]

Who said this? Certainly not me.

No, you didn’t creat the myth of 613 laws, someone else did. I was telling you the purpose behind this myth you are promoting. I’m sure you mean well, no malicious intent. However, the implication of this myth is false.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Well first, where in the world did you get the teaching that God Placed 613 Laws on the Children of Israel? Such a teaching is not true.

So then you believe the handwriting of ordinances which are against us, are ordinances written by God. So then the Principalities and Powers Jesus Spoiled was God? Jesus Triumphed over God?

Yes, I do find this doctrine hard to accept. If Jesus nailed His Fathers Laws to the Cross, why is Paul still serving them with his mind in Rom. 7?

Rom. 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me?

This is the question you are implying, yes? This would be a "dark side" of God's Word. That HE created these Laws to Kill us, destroy us. And Jesus came to save us, not from our own rebellion, stubbornness, pride, selfishness, etc. But save us from these Laws of God that are a burden and Yoke of Bondage HE placed on the Necks of the People HE claimed to Love.

But Paul knows/believes that God is Good, Just, Holy, and HIS LAWS as Just, Holy and Good. So he asked the question "Did God create these Laws to destroy me"?

Then he answered the question.

God forbid. (NO) But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

The death penalty wasn't placed on us for transgressing God's Commandments to destroy us, but to teach us just how evil, wicked and very, very, exceedingly BAD it is to live in disobedience to God's Instructions. In this way the mind of God and the mind of men are aligned. We look at sin/transgression of God's Laws, the same way HE does, which helps us in the race that is set before us, striving against sin. As Paul concludes;

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (death)

Isn't Paul saying His mind is renewed, no longer one of the "Children of Disobedience", while his flesh is crucified with Christ, no longer directing his foot steps?

These are good discussions to have in these evil times, in my view.

God's laws change no one. The descendants of Adam are born dead to God. The law simply exposes the condition of man. Now anyone can agree wholeheartedly with noble principles and ideals. Living accordingly is much harder. God's laws are not too hard to keep. But there is an innate rebellion in the heart of man (Jeremiah 17:9). It's not that man cannot keep the law. He just will not. So the purpose of the Law is to reveal to us what sin is. The vast majority of people I've witnessed to think that they are fundamentally good. The Law says, "Think again". Its purpose is to lead us to Christ.

We are born dead. That was God's warning to Adam. Adam ignored it and paid the price. There is a second death to face, unless people choose Christ. Those who are born again have an aversion to sin, even if they struggle to overcome.

The antidote to death is life. Those who are born again have the life of Christ within to be both the motivation and the power to live as God wills. Most people think God hates sin only because He is holy. Not so. God also hates sin because of the damage it does to people. He created us in His image and we can only be truly free when sin no longer controls us. We will be at peace, full of joy, content with God's will, enjoy God's blessings and fellowship with God and the brethren.

 

[Aussie Pete]

The purpose of the 613 law myth being promoted is that God placed laws so burdensome, so many in number, that it was impossible for man to keep them. Then God killed and tortured those who didn’t keep them. This popular belief can not be supported by Scripture. At least I can not find them. Please show me where the Scriptures promote such a teaching.

Did God create men and then give His creation instruction? Certainly, like the perfect Father that He is. So Yes, God gave His people written instructions for their good.

Was it these instructions that led Israel astray, or the doctrines and commandments and philosophy of religious men who transgressed Gods commandments?

For me it’s about what the Scriptures day, more than what religious traditions or doctrines say.

If I am convinced of a falsehood, like God Gave His people so many laws, so impossible to keep that it was impossible to keep them, but He killed them anyway, this “leaven” can influence my whole belief.

This is why it is important to “beware” of religious philosophies and traditions of men.

Read my last post and you will better understand what I'm trying to say.

 

[expos4ever]

For me it’s about what the Scriptures day, more than what religious traditions or doctrines say.

Me too. What is Paul saying in these statements re the relationship between the law and the sin nature that dwells inside the human being:

But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me [h]coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead

for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me

and there is more. The whole tenor of Romans 7 is about how the Law actually empowers sinful urges in the Jew. This seems exceedingly odd. But Paul has an explanation that he provides in Romans 9 to 11. More later.

 

[expos4ever]

No, you didn’t creat the myth of 613 laws, someone else did. I was telling you the purpose behind this myth you are promoting. I’m sure you mean well, no malicious intent. However, the implication of this myth is false.

I do not understand your point. Thus far, I have (a) asserted an obvious fact - there is this thing called the Law of Moses; and (b) asserted that Paul believes it has a dark side - the Law energizes and empowers the sinful nature in man. I know that seems bizarre, but, to be frank, you will have to dig up old Paul and take the matter up with him. In Romans 7 (and actually elsewhere in his writings), Paul clearly places the Law of Moses in this odd and disturbing role.

 

[SkyWriting]

Col. 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

I have heard it proclaimed by religious men, who come in Christ's Name, that the "Handwriting of ordinances" which are against us, are the Good, Just, and Holy Laws, Commandments, and Statutes of God, given to Moses and Aaron to give to God's People.

I am interested in locating exactly where these handwritten ordinances, which were against God's People, are located as, for the life of me, I can not find a Command from God to HIS People that was "Against them".

In fact, the only "laws" I found in the Holy scriptures that were against men, was the doctrines and Commandments of men Jesus said the mainstream preachers of HIS Time burdened His People with. I am hoping to open up an honest, unbiased discussion about who's ordinances were taken out of the way, who were the "principalities and powers" which promoted these "handwritten ordinances", who was make a show of openly, and who was triumphed over.

If God's "handwriting of ordinances" are the ones that are against us, then God must be the "principalities and powers" that was "Spoiled". If God was the Author of the handwritten ordinances which was contrary to us, then did Jesus make a show of God openly? If God's Commandments and Laws are the handwritten ordinances that were against us, then did Jesus Triumph over God by "taking His Laws, Statutes, and Commandments "out of the way"?

Somehow I don't believe this is the message Paul was sending.

What do you think?

Paul was speaking against legalism, which he only partially rejected. He still embraced certain parts.

 

[expos4ever]

Here is a concise statement from scholar NT Wright that captures the position I am advocating:

Within the apparently negative effect of Torah, stated in Romans 5:20 and amplified in Romans 7:7-20, there lies the extraordinary positive purpose explained in Romans 8:3. God has deliberately given the Torah to be the means of concentrating the sin of humankind in one place, namely, in his people, Israel - in order that it might then be concentrated yet further, drawn together on to Israel's representative, the Messiah - in order that it might there be dealt with once and for all.

 

[Studyman]

Paul was speaking against legalism, which he only partially rejected. He still embraced certain parts.

Can you provide Scriptures which support this? What do you mean by "legalism"? This word doesn't exist in the Bible. I really appreciate your addition to this discussion, but I need you clarify a few things please.

Thanks