Can the day or hour be known?

[Davy]

When the dead in Christ rise it is for sure and certain the Resurrection.

Which is a resurrection to the "spiritual body". That is what Apostle Paul was teaching in the 1 Corinthians 15 chapter, i.e., with what kind of body the resurrection is.

I read the Bible, not men’s theologies.

“If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.”

He said HE WOULD COME. I know you don’t like it but there it is. A direct quote from Jesus himself.

You said that's about the resurrection (i.e., resurrection of life), it isn't. It's a warning from Jesus about His coming alright, but His coming to cast those with the unbelievers.

Rev 2:5
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
KJV

That idea is about His coming upon them unawares. The idea of their candlestick being removed is about that Church being cast among the unbelieving, like the following warning in Luke 12...

Luke 12:45-46
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
KJV

 

[jgr]

Well if Jesus is supreme commander of the pagan Roman Legions, it only makes sense that He is supreme commander of the nazi armies.

To whom other than you does it make sense?

But as you wish to call me a denier- what 7 year covenant did Jesus confirm with Israel? Whatr did he do in the middle of that 7 year period to cause the sascrificial system to cease? And at teh end of that 7 year period How did everlasting righteousness come in, how did Israels sin cease and trangressions finish? Are you saying that israelis never sin anymore?

Are you still in your sin?

If not, Who delivered you, and through what Supreme Watershed Event of history did He deliver you?

During which of Daniel's 70 weeks did that Event occur?

Did He through that Event bring in everlasting righteousness, and make you righteous? (Romans 5:17-21; 1 Corinthians 1:30; 1 Peter 2:24; 2 Corinthians 5:21)

Was the righteousness which He brought in everlasting, or was it temporary?

If it was temporary, when did it end for you?

If He didn't cause sacrifice and oblation to cease, then do we assume that you are still offering sacrifice and oblation in your garage or basement?

Way past time to toss your Scofield back into the round file from whence it came, and receive the enlightenment of the Words of our Savior:

Luke 24
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

 

[Davy]

We get the idea from Jesus' own words, for he DID indeed say that to those at Ephesus, and I have no idea where you are getting the idea He didn't?
Did someone take a sharpie to Revelation 2:5 in your Bible and redact Jesus words?

Revelation 2:5
Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

He warned them about the need to repent, or He would "come to them quickly" to remove their 'candlestick'.
You cannot Biblically separate the event of His coming to them from the event of His removing their Candlestick.
For sure, if they DID NOT repent, Christ's coming to them served to remove their lampstand. So, if they did not repent, and if Christ did not then follow up by coming and removing their lampstand, then Christ is a proven false prophet, for he plainly threatened to come quickly and remove their lampstand. There is no way around it.

She said that's about the resurrection. And I said it wasn't. And it's not.

It's about a WARNING Jesus gave for those of His servants who aren't following Him, and thus are not prepared for His coming, and that... is why He warns about removing their candlestick.

Rev 2:5
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
KJV

Luke 12:45-46
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
KJV

So confusing that WARNING there as the resurrection is to completely miss what the subject there is.

 

[Davy]

I used to believe in all the horrible end of the world and rapture teaching until I learned about how the fall of Jerusalem fulfills scripture so powerfully. So much of scripture fell into place. I then wondered how I could have believed Jesus would come in a military hostile take over. Doesn’t fit the ways of God at all. Was very freeing to see these matters differently.

Christ's Olivet discourse covers 7 main Signs for the END of this world. It wasn't about the 70 A.D. fall of Jerusalem. The Western Wall of huge stones are still standing one atop another. Christ's disciples asked Him what would be the sign of His coming and the end of the world, not the sign of the Romans destroying Jerusalem. So what you've actually chosen to heed is a doctrine of men, and not what the actual Scripture says as written.

 

[jgr]

Christ's Olivet discourse covers 7 main Signs for the END of this world. It wasn't about the 70 A.D. fall of Jerusalem. The Western Wall of huge stones are still standing one atop another. Christ's disciples asked Him what would be the sign of His coming and the end of the world, not the sign of the Romans destroying Jerusalem. So what you've actually chosen to heed is a doctrine of men, and not what the actual Scripture says as written.

Those foolish disciples and early Christians. They should have stayed put in Jerusalem, and been slaughtered.

But thankfully, they weren't dispensational delusionists.

 

[Davy]

Those foolish disciples and early Christians. They should have stayed put in Jerusalem, and been slaughtered.

But thankfully, they weren't dispensational delusionists.

The FACT that Christ's Olivet Discourse is NOT about 70 A.D. Jerusalem has nothing to do with John Darby's Dispensationalism, nor anything to do with a pre-trib rapture.

Jesus showed a Post-tribulational gathering of His Church there in His Olivet Discourse, and it parallels what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4. Those who don't know this show they clearly have not really studied either chapters thoroughly.

 

[jgr]

The FACT that Christ's Olivet Discourse is NOT about 70 A.D. Jerusalem has nothing to do with John Darby's Dispensationalism, nor anything to do with a pre-trib rapture.

Jesus showed a Post-tribulational gathering of His Church there in His Olivet Discourse, and it parallels what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4. Those who don't know this show they clearly have not really studied either chapters thoroughly.

Whether pretrib or posttrib, denial that Christ was speaking of 70 AD is still delusionism.

Thankfully, the disciples and early Christians were not deluded.

Their survival was a direct result of understanding and acting upon Christ's warning.

Recognizing that the warning was for them.

 

[Davy]

Whether pretrib or posttrib, denial that Christ was speaking of 70 AD is still delusionism.

What is delusional is how a lot of the public school systems don't teach people English comprehension, so they have no clue of what they read...

Matt 24:3
3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
KJV

 

[jgr]

What is delusional is how a lot of the public school systems don't teach people English comprehension, so they have no clue of what they read...

Matt 24:3
3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
KJV

Matthew 24
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Who were them and you?

Would they by any chance be His disciples?

They could only be deceived by someone(s) who would appear in their lifetimes.

 

[shilohsfoal]

Matthew 24
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Who were them and you?

Would they by any chance be His disciples?

They could only be deceived by someone(s) who would appear in their lifetimes.

So you could be deceived because Jesus never spoke to you about anything?
I hope that you know or try to learn the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. He can be speaking to someone now though it was recorded thousands of years ago.

 

[shilohsfoal]

What is delusional is how a lot of the public school systems don't teach people English comprehension, so they have no clue of what they read...

Matt 24:3
3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
KJV

The pharisees taught that events pertaining to the time of the end took place in 167 bc.
There are some "Christians" who teach events pertaining to the time of the end took place in 70 ad.

There's just some people you will not be able to reach they are as so far gone.

 

[jgr]

So you could be deceived because Jesus never spoke to you about anything?
I hope that you know or try to learn the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. He can be speaking to someone now though it was recorded thousands of years ago.

Matthew 24
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Who were them and you?

Were His disciples excluded from His warning?

 

[grafted branch]

There is an event which Jesus spoke of in Mathew 24 that you can know the date of. If your interested I can show you in scripture how you can know that date.

If you have some information on that I would be interested in looking at it.

 

[grafted branch]

11:3-4 “The two witnesses,” which are said to be “two olive trees” and “two candlesticks,” represent the Old and New Testaments. The olive trees represent the power of the Holy Spirit. The candlesticks symbolize the spiritual light of the scriptures. Psalm 119:105; Zechariah 4:1-14. The two witnesses were to “prophesy…in sackcloth,” symbolizing mourning. The Bible was not readily available to the common people. There are several reasons for this:

1. It was only available in Hebrew, Greek and Latin;
2. It had to be copied by hand so there were few copies;
3. During religious services both scripture reading and sermons were in Latin;
4. The church’s stance was that since the common people could not understand the Bible, the clergy must interpret it for them;
5. Even after the Bible was translated into the common language of the people, the church forbade them to read it.

read more here
Revelation 11 Commentary

Thanks for the linked article on the 2 witnesses. I found this explanation too speculative for me. For example the 3.5 days that the 2 witness are dead are first converted to 3.5 years, and then placed during the “reign of terror” in France where the bible was openly forbidden. When I looked at Wikipedia I can’t find any such period that lasted for exactly 3.5 years.

 

[shilohsfoal]

Matthew 24
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Who were them and you?

Were His disciples excluded from His warning?

A disciple is a student.
I have been a disciple for as long as I have been listening and learning from Jesus's testimony.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Thanks for the linked article on the 2 witnesses. I found this explanation too speculative for me. For example the 3.5 days that the 2 witness are dead are first converted to 3.5 years, and then placed during the “reign of terror” in France where the bible was openly forbidden. When I looked at Wikipedia I can’t find any such period that lasted for exactly 3.5 years.

God's faithful witnesses, slain by the blasphemous power that "ascendeth out of the bottomless pit," were not long to remain silent. "After three days and a half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them." Revelation 11:11. It was in 1793 that the decrees which abolished the Christian religion and set aside the Bible passed the French Assembly. Three years and a half later a resolution rescinding these decrees, thus granting toleration to the Scriptures, was adopted by the same body.

The Bible and the French Revolution

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Thanks for the linked article on the 2 witnesses. I found this explanation too speculative for me. For example the 3.5 days that the 2 witness are dead are first converted to 3.5 years, and then placed during the “reign of terror” in France where the bible was openly forbidden. When I looked at Wikipedia I can’t find any such period that lasted for exactly 3.5 years.

This might help also

Important dates involving Bible truth during the 3½ days
Oct. 5, 1793. The revolutionary calendar was established making weeks of 10 days.
Nov. 10. A statute of liberty as "godess of the French people" replaced the image of Mary. (link as for Oct. 5).
Nov. 10. Account of burning Bible portions.
Nov. 24. Satute ordering the closing of all churches. (Aulard, p. 161)
June 1797. Request to use church bells -- need more research.
Sept. 17, 1797. Catholicism had been generally restored.

French Revolution and 3½ days of Revelation 11 - source documents

 

[shilohsfoal]

If you have some information on that I would be interested in looking at it.

OK, Jesus spoke of an event which would be a sign of his coming in Mathew 24. The object of the event is called the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel.

Matthew 24:15 So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination of desolation,' described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand),

According to Daniel 12:11.This object is placed exactly 1290 days after the sacrifice if abolished.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation set up, there will be 1,290 days.

So the date of this is one event which described by Jesus in Mathew 24 and by Daniel in Dan:12 as being a time of terrible trouble,can be known by counting the days from the time the sacrifice is abolished.
Please keep one thing in mind though.
Scripture does not explain what sacrifice this is or to whom it is made. Don't just assume it is talking about sheep. Give it plenty of thought.

 

[grafted branch]

OK, Jesus spoke of an event which would be a sign of his coming in Mathew 24. The object of the event is called the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel.

Matthew 24:15 So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination of desolation,' described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand),

According to Daniel 12:11.This object is placed exactly 1290 days after the sacrifice if abolished.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation set up, there will be 1,290 days.

So the date of this is one event which described by Jesus in Mathew 24 and by Daniel in Dan:12 as being a time of terrible trouble,can be known by counting the days from the time the sacrifice is abolished.
Please keep one thing in mind though.
Scripture does not explain what sacrifice this is or to whom it is made. Don't just assume it is talking about sheep. Give it plenty of thought.

I have looked at this before and came to this conclusion.

In Daniel 12:11-12 the daily shall be taken away, that is the necessity to provide the daily sacrifices as outlined in Exodus 29:38-39 which was 2 lambs, 1 in the morning and 1 in the evening. The point at which this occurred is in John 1:29 where Jesus was declared to be the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. There are 1290 days until the abomination that maketh desolate is set up. The first sacrifice made after the veil of the temple was torn in two would be considered an abomination. In Matthew 27:51 along with the veil being torn there was an earthquake and the rocks rent. I think the altar used to make the sacrifices was broken down. In Matthew 24:15 the abomination is standing in the holy place, this is the altar being put back up again and sacrifices resumed. Blessed is he that waiteth and cometh to the 1335 days. This is Pentecost and is recorded in Acts 2. The difference between 1290 and 1335 is 45 days, it would have taken some time to put the temple back in order and resume the sacrifices after the veil was torn and the earthquake.

 

[shilohsfoal]

I have looked at this before and came to this conclusion.

In Daniel 12:11-12 the daily shall be taken away, that is the necessity to provide the daily sacrifices as outlined in Exodus 29:38-39 which was 2 lambs, 1 in the morning and 1 in the evening. The point at which this occurred is in John 1:29 where Jesus was declared to be the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. There are 1290 days until the abomination that maketh desolate is set up. The first sacrifice made after the veil of the temple was torn in two would be considered an abomination. In Matthew 27:51 along with the veil being torn there was an earthquake and the rocks rent. I think the altar used to make the sacrifices was broken down. In Matthew 24:15 the abomination is standing in the holy place, this is the altar being put back up again and sacrifices resumed. Blessed is he that waiteth and cometh to the 1335 days. This is Pentecost and is recorded in Acts 2. The difference between 1290 and 1335 is 45 days, it would have taken some time to put the temple back in order and resume the sacrifices after the veil was torn and the earthquake.

So you believe Christ committed an abomination by sacrificing himself or you believe God committed an abomination by ripping the temple veil into?