Can the day or hour be known?

Can the day or hour be known prior to Christ's second coming?

  • Yes

    Votes: 1 4.2%
  • No

    Votes: 23 95.8%

  • Total voters
    24

nolidad

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I agree the answer is no. I’m reexamining this because there are quite a few people on this forum (maybe 1/3 or more?) that believe there will be either a 3.5 or 7 year tribulation then an immediate second coming of Christ.

The one view that was clearly given I’m examining and studying now. That view is that the second coming won’t be known, but a third coming will be known.

Well the date and time of the rapture cannot be known, but as for the second coming of the Lord Jesus, that will happen exactly 7 years after Israel signs the covenant with the antichrist, thus starting the tribulation period of 70th week of Daniel.
 
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DavidPT

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Well the date and time of the rapture cannot be known, but as for the second coming of the Lord Jesus, that will happen exactly 7 years after Israel signs the covenant with the antichrist, thus starting the tribulation period of 70th week of Daniel.


The problem is this, though. The rapture and 2nd coming are one and the same. BTW, didn't you mean to say third coming rather than second?

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Does not the text say---unto the coming of the Lord? No matter how you look at it, how can that not be the 2nd coming? Wouldn't this coming, per your position, occur prior to the coming you say can be known? Doesn't 2 come after 1 and before 3? Doesn't Pretrib teach there are 3 comings? 1--the first coming in the first century---2---the 2nd coming in 1 Thessalonians 4:15---3---the 3rd coming after the tribulation?

Is Pretrib going to argue that the rapture actually involves no coming at all, even though 1 Thessalonians 4:15 indicates otherwise? Thus why I asked, didn't you mean to say 3rd coming rather than 2nd coming, in regards to the coming you indicated can be known?
 
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DavidPT

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I agree the answer is no. I’m reexamining this because there are quite a few people on this forum (maybe 1/3 or more?) that believe there will be either a 3.5 or 7 year tribulation then an immediate second coming of Christ.

The one view that was clearly given I’m examining and studying now. That view is that the second coming won’t be known, but a third coming will be known.


There is no second and third coming, where the former He comes in a time that can't be determined, but in the latter the time can be determined. That clearly contradicts the passage in question, that no man knows the day and hour. Nothing in the Discourse gives the impression that there is another coming after that one. A position like this is what Pretribbers use to try and explain their position.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I only see one coming mentioned here. Where is the other coming in the text if there is more than one?

You might even agree with me here for all I know, and if so, my arguments are not against your position but are against the position you say you are currently examining and studying.


IMO, all of the following are referring to the same events.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.


1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2 Peter 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.


Heaven and earth shall pass away(Matthew 24:35)---2 Peter 3:10---But of that day and hour knoweth no man(Matthew 24:36)

The text then goes on to tell us in more detail as to what transpires leading up to this day and hour---For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark(Matthew 24:38)

And when it arrives at this day and hour, it results in the following---And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be(Matthew 24:39)----1 Thessalonians 5:2-3---2 Peter 3:10.

Then we have the following that also happens during this same coming.

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ(1 Thessalonians 5:9)---belongs with the following---1 Thessalonians 5:4---Matthew 24:45-46---2 Peter 3:14---1 Thessalonians 4:17---to name a few.

Pretribbers use 1 Thessalonians 5:9 to try and prove there is more than one coming. Yet 1 Thessalonians 5:4 proves them wrong since that verse shows that the ones in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 will still be here when that day and hour arrives if that day is not supposed to overtake them as a thief. That doesn't mean they know when that day is. It means when it arrives it will be a blessing in their case, but in the case of those in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3, it will be anything but that.

What does it mean for Jesus to come upon one as a thief? Did not Jesus tell us that per the following, for one?

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Matthew 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

What some are failing to grasp, there will be two things going on at the same time when Jesus returns, and with Him being God and all, surely He is able to multitask--1---salvation for the saved---2---judgment against the lost.
 
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JulieB67

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But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Exactly right DavidPT and this verse especially ties it in all together. I have had people tell me that "the thief in the night" references are always about a rapture before the tribulation. But we can see with this verse especially, it is referring to the Day of the Lord/Lord's Day. It's one day and one more coming which makes it the 2nd coming.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

I wish people would really take heed to what Christ is saying there.
 
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Davy

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That was written to those who would have been living in Jerusalem during the time of its judgement. It was a testimony to them and was not pertinent to the Christians who left town before that time. God gives word to his of what is to come when it is about to come and they need to take real steps in their lives to avoid something (like leave town when Jerusalem is surrounded by armies which had a practical meaning.) If we are not involved in the matter, then it is not for us to try to know what does not pertain to us. That is what he was telling the disciples who actually at that time did not understand his plan fully but thought he would establish a kingdom and rule the world from the city of Jerusalem. That was not his plan. It has never been his plan.

So do you believe that Jesus' 2nd coming happened back then also, because those Rev.11 events cover the time just prior to His 2nd coming, and the event of His 2nd coming? Do you believe Jesus' 1st coming was real, or just a spiritual coming?
 
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grafted branch

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If you want to study something beneficial, study how the fall of Jerusalem and the events before fulfilled Matthew 24, the first question Jesus answered. It is thrilling.

Thanks for the advice, I have studied the preterits view and it does have a lot of merit. No one knew the date of the destruction of Jerusalem prior to 70 AD. I tend to lean toward the preterits direction but as with all the different views they each have their strong points and weaknesses. So for this thread I’m just looking at the day and hour and trying not to focus on whether someone holds a Premil, Amil, or preterits view.
 
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grafted branch

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Well the date and time of the rapture cannot be known, but as for the second coming of the Lord Jesus, that will happen exactly 7 years after Israel signs the covenant with the antichrist, thus starting the tribulation period of 70th week of Daniel.

Are you saying the exact day of the second coming can be known?
 
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grafted branch

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There is no second and third coming, where the former He comes in a time that can't be determined, but in the latter the time can be determined. That clearly contradicts the passage in question, that no man knows the day and hour. Nothing in the Discourse gives the impression that there is another coming after that one. A position like this is what Pretribbers use to try and explain their position.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I only see one coming mentioned here. Where is the other coming in the text if there is more than one?

You might even agree with me here for all I know, and if so, my arguments are not against your position but are against the position you say you are currently examining and studying.


IMO, all of the following are referring to the same events.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.


1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2 Peter 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.


Heaven and earth shall pass away(Matthew 24:35)---2 Peter 3:10---But of that day and hour knoweth no man(Matthew 24:36)

The text then goes on to tell us in more detail as to what transpires leading up to this day and hour---For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark(Matthew 24:38)

And when it arrives at this day and hour, it results in the following---And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be(Matthew 24:39)----1 Thessalonians 5:2-3---2 Peter 3:10.

Then we have the following that also happens during this same coming.

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ(1 Thessalonians 5:9)---belongs with the following---1 Thessalonians 5:4---Matthew 24:45-46---2 Peter 3:14---1 Thessalonians 4:17---to name a few.

Pretribbers use 1 Thessalonians 5:9 to try and prove there is more than one coming. Yet 1 Thessalonians 5:4 proves them wrong since that verse shows that the ones in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 will still be here when that day and hour arrives if that day is not supposed to overtake them as a thief. That doesn't mean they know when that day is. It means when it arrives it will be a blessing in their case, but in the case of those in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3, it will be anything but that.

What does it mean for Jesus to come upon one as a thief? Did not Jesus tell us that per the following, for one?

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Matthew 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

What some are failing to grasp, there will be two things going on at the same time when Jesus returns, and with Him being God and all, surely He is able to multitask--1---salvation for the saved---2---judgment against the lost.

I absolutely tend to agree with you here about there being only one more final coming. Thanks for giving the references; I was only re-examining this because of another post. Sometimes when I study things that I don’t necessarily agree with it leads me to areas of the scriptures I haven’t previously put much thought into.
So do you place a 3.5 or 7 year tribulation occurring prior to the second coming?
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Thanks for the advice, I have studied the preterits view and it does have a lot of merit. No one knew the date of the destruction of Jerusalem prior to 70 AD. I tend to lean toward the preterits direction but as with all the different views they each have their strong points and weaknesses. So for this thread I’m just looking at the day and hour and trying not to focus on whether someone holds a Premil, Amil, or preterits view.
The day and hour cannot be known. And the whole teaching renders people less willing to attend to learning God’s desire for them.
 
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Davy

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The day and hour cannot be known. And the whole teaching renders people less willing to attend to learning God’s desire for them.

The "whole teaching" would have to include Jesus' warning to His Church to 'watch'. That was His commandment to His Church.

Mark 13:32-37
32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

36 Lest coming suddenly He find you sleeping.

37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, 'Watch.'
KJV


So HOW is that not about His desire for His Church???
 
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Dorothy Mae

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The "whole teaching" would have to include Jesus' warning to His Church to 'watch'. That was His commandment to His Church.
And the practical instructions were to leave Jerusalem at a particular sign. They watched and did. Since none of us live in Jerusalem we didn’t watch.
Mark 13:32-37
32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

36 Lest coming suddenly He find you sleeping.

37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, 'Watch.'
KJV


So HOW is that not about His desire for His Church???
It was and no longer is.Easy.
 
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nolidad

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Are you saying the exact day of the second coming can be known?

Yes! 7 years to the day the antichrist signs a covenant with Israel, Jesus will return with the church and angels!
 
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nolidad

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The problem is this, though. The rapture and 2nd coming are one and the same. BTW, didn't you mean to say third coming rather than second?

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Does not the text say---unto the coming of the Lord? No matter how you look at it, how can that not be the 2nd coming? Wouldn't this coming, per your position, occur prior to the coming you say can be known? Doesn't 2 come after 1 and before 3? Doesn't Pretrib teach there are 3 comings? 1--the first coming in the first century---2---the 2nd coming in 1 Thessalonians 4:15---3---the 3rd coming after the tribulation?

Is Pretrib going to argue that the rapture actually involves no coming at all, even though 1 Thessalonians 4:15 indicates otherwise? Thus why I asked, didn't you mean to say 3rd coming rather than 2nd coming, in regards to the coming you indicated can be known?

The rapture and the second coming are not the same event. the rapture is not a return fo th eLord for He only returns either to the atmosphere or lower space to gather the church to Himself!

Teh 2nd coming of Jesus Christ is when He physically sets foot back on planet earth!
 
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grafted branch

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Yes! 7 years to the day the antichrist signs a covenant with Israel, Jesus will return with the church and angels!

OK, what about Matthew 24:36, I assume you think this verse is referring to the rapture? If so can you give an explanation of why Matthew 24:36 isn’t referring to Matthew 24:30 which happens after the tribulation?
 
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grafted branch

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The day and hour cannot be known. And the whole teaching renders people less willing to attend to learning God’s desire for them.

So I do agree with you, the day and hour can’t be known. However I think almost all interpretations have some kind of issue with knowing the day or hour.

For example if someone holds the view that the day of the Lord occurred in 70 AD, I would agree that no one knew the day that Jerusalem would ultimately fall. But from historical records John was alive in 70 AD, so if he wrote Revelation prior to 70 AD then it would seem that John knew the day because the book wasn’t sealed. If he wrote Revelation after 70 AD this would suggest that at least part of the book is future to 70 AD and all things being fulfilled (Luke 21:22) didn’t happen in 70 AD.

This is why I’m examining other views on this; I would like to see how other views deal with this.
 
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DavidPT

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The rapture and the second coming are not the same event. the rapture is not a return fo th eLord for He only returns either to the atmosphere or lower space to gather the church to Himself!

Teh 2nd coming of Jesus Christ is when He physically sets foot back on planet earth!


How can you prove from 1 Thessalanians 4 alone, that the Lord does not step foot on earth during that coming? How can you prove from 1 Thessalanians 4 alone, that the reason the Lord does not step foot on earth during that coming is because He goes back to heaven instead? Where does it indicate in the text either way? It doesn't.

So let's start here for now.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

These that sleep in Jesus, where do you think they are currently residing? If you say heaven, what then is the purpose for Jesus bringing them with Him if He is simply going to make a uturn moments later and take them back to where they already were? You might ask the same about those who are alive and remain on the earth when this coming occurs. What is the point in Jesus gathering them above the earth then returning them to where they already were? Between these two scenarios, the latter at least has some logic to it while the former doesn't appear to.

If we consider Revelation 19, the reason for the gathering in the air above the earth could be in order to form the armies seen coming with Christ to confront the beast and it's armies. That sounds like a logical reason to me. But what would be a logical reason for Jesus to bring with Him those who are already dwelling in heaven, to then moments later do a uturn and bring them back to where they were already at to begin with? What exactly was accomplished by that? I can't think of anything myself. Can you?
 
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DavidPT

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So do you place a 3.5 or 7 year tribulation occurring prior to the second coming?

Actually I do place a 3.5 year tribulation period before the 2nd coming, that period being the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13. But if we consider the Discourse, there appears to be unknown period of time after the 42 month reign of the beast and prior to the 2nd coming. But even so, it does still seem like one would know even at this point when to expect this unknown day and hour to arrive. I do see it as a problem. What is the solution, then? Pretrib? Does that explain it? I don't see how since this unknown day and hour would be meaning after the trib and not prior to it instead.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

This unknown period of time after the trib but prior to the 2nd coming, I was referring to, is meaning what I have underlined above.
 
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grafted branch

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I do see it as a problem. What is the solution, then? Pretrib? Does that explain it? I don't see how since this unknown day and hour would be meaning after the trib and not prior to it instead.

Yea, well that’s why I’m asking this question, I see it as a problem too.

I think there are 2 possibilities for those of us who only see a second coming and not a third.

  1. A period of time has to be added to or taken away from the 70th week. Satan’s little season (Revelation 20:3), Satan knows his time is short (revelation 12:12), those days are shortened (Matthew 24:22), and possibly there should be time no longer (Revelation 10:6). I have a hard time just accepting any of these because it changes the amount of time that was determined in Daniel 9:24

  2. God at some point no longer uses the celestial movements to determine what a day is. 2 Peter 3:8 seems to be the verse that is most likely to be debated when it comes to this idea.
I think #2 is the most plausible solution for me, but this solution can be challenged. I would like to find a better solution if one can be found.
 
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parousia70

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My question is this, who are these verses meant for?

I'd start with the very people He was actually addressing.
Whoever ELSE they are meant for, the People he was actually addressing cannot be removed form Direct application of them, can they?
 
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grafted branch

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I'd start with the very people He was actually addressing.
Whoever ELSE they are meant for, the People he was actually addressing cannot be removed form Direct application of them, can they?

I agree that the verses are directed toward and apply to the disciples. I lean toward the preterits view.

However to me it would seem that John could’ve known the day of the Lord if it occurred in 70 AD, but I would like to get your opinion on this. Matthew 24 was an answer to the questions the disciples asked Jesus. John, who was one of the disciples, wrote Revelation some time later. The book of Revelation was not sealed; do you think John could have known the day or hour based on what he wrote in Revelation?
 
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