Pagan Holidays

HARK!

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How many of those times and ways are specifically for the Israelites and how many are reiterated in the NT for gentile Christians?
If you want to be a Jew then be a Jew, if you want to be a Christian then be a Christian, not half and half.

YHWH's covenant is with Israel.

(CLV) Hb 8:10
"For this is the covenant which I shall be covenanting with the house of Israel after those days," the Lord is saying: "Imparting My laws to their comprehension, On their hearts, also, shall I be inscribing them, And I shall be to them for a God, And they shall be to Me for a people.

Yahshua was commissioned only for Israel.

(CLV) Mt 15:24
Now He, [Yahshua] answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

If one wants to be a Christian, follow Messiah's example of obedience to the Torah.

If one wants to be a Pagan; worship in the ways of Pagans.

Don't be half and half.
 
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HARK!

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This is the typical heterodox practice of quoting 2-3 verses out-of-context trying to prove something. Very likely deliberately omitting verses which proves their assumptions wrong e.g. vs. 5 this passage.
Jeremiah 10:3-5
3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.Is a decorated tree expected to move vs. 4, is a tree expected to speak, go, do evil, or do good, vs. 5? No, but a pagan deity is expected to do all those things. Let's look at a parallel passage in Isa.
Isaiah 46:5-7
5 To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?
6 They lavish gold out of the bag, and weigh silver in the balance, and hire a goldsmith; and he maketh it a god: they fall down, yea, they worship.
7 They bear him upon the shoulder, they carry him, and set him in his place, and he standeth; from his place shall he not remove: yea, one shall cry unto him, yet can he not answer, nor save him out of his trouble.I know that this will fall on deaf ears and blind eyes.

I can see the differences in these passages. if you can't; that's your deal.
 
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Der Alte

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I can see the differences in these passages. if you can't; that's your deal.
So what? That 's your problem. They were about the same thing. I know the pagans had idols but I don't know of any that worshiped a decorated tree.
 
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HARK!

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Unless one can provide credible, verifiable, historical evidence.
Let's take a moment to review veracity and credibility.

What do these words mean to you?

I have been at this forum since George H.W. Bush was president



41st President of the United States
In office

January 20, 1989 – January 20, 1993


George H. W. Bush - Wikipedia


Der Alter
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Je suis un deplorable.
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Der Alte

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Let's take a moment to review veracity and credibility.
What do these words mean to you?
41st President of the United States
In office
January 20, 1989 – January 20, 1993

George H. W. Bush - Wikipedia
Der Alter
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Je suis un deplorable.
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I was writing from memory and got the date wrong. I should have said I have been a member since Clinton was president. I think the date above is wrong due to a change of forum software.
My original SN was Old Shepherd which I used when I was a mod and I posted as DA.
 
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Der Alte

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Do your homework.
You are the one claiming that pagans at the time of Jeremiah worshipped decorated trees so the burden of proof is on you to do the homework and back it up or pack it up.
 
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HARK!

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You are the one claiming that pagans at the time of Jeremiah worshipped decorated trees so the burden of proof is on you to do the homework and back it up or pack it up.

(CLV) Jer 10:2
Thus says Yahweh: The way of the nations, do not learn, And by the signs of the heavens, do not be dismayed, Though the nations are being dismayed by them.
(CLV) Jer 10:3
Indeed concerning the statutes of the peoples, it all is vanity, For one cuts it down, a tree from the wildwood, The work of an artificer's hands with an adz;
(CLV) Jer 10:4
With silver and with gold he makes it lovely; With nails and with hammers they fasten it, so that it cannot quaver.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Do your homework.
The final refuge of the defeated. When asked for evidence they tell you to prove their claim for them.
Also Jeremiah is clearly describing the making of idols from a tree, not the decoration of a tree.
 
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StephenDiscipleofYHWH

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That is good and fine you decide for yourself what is or is not proper for you to do and let other people do the same. Unless one can provide credible, verifiable, historical evidence that something was a pagan practice one should not go around wagging their finger in other people's faces. And I can almost guarantee you will not be able to.
I have been at this forum since George H.W. Bush was president and read these accusations many, many times but have not seen any credible evidence.
We are told to keep the Apostles and Christ's traditions given to us by them. Unless you can provide evidence from scripture that we ARE to keep these traditions(Christmas, birthdays, etc) then there is no basis to keep them. We only keep the Traditions given to us by God.

We are told to do only one thing in remembrance of Christ, and that one thing is to not keep Christmas but rather to show his death till he comes.
1 Cor 11:
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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We are told to keep the Apostles and Christ's traditions given to us by them. Unless you can provide evidence from scripture that we ARE to keep these traditions(Christmas, birthdays, etc) then there is no basis to keep them. We only keep the Traditions given to us by God.

We are told to do only one thing in remembrance of Christ, and that one thing is to not keep Christmas but rather to show his death till he comes.
1 Cor 11:
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

The obvious question seems to be if there is a prohibition to celebrate these things or have days dedicated to certain people and themes. Why is it inherently wrong to celebrate the resurrection? Or the incarnation/birth of Christ? The entire liturgical calendar is built for the purpose of reminding us of everything Christ did. Is this truly a bad thing because you don't have direct Apostolic affirmation? This is a standard no one could meet for their practices.
 
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Oldmantook

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I'll bite. Easter cannot be derived from ancient Babylonian Goddess called Ishtar. For one thing you cannot explain how etymologically medieval Christians in England/Germany were directly influenced in calling the feast Easter because of this Goddess instead of local reasons (like it just happening to be the name of the month).

The eggs also have no connection to ancient Babylonian religion. They instead derive their significance from Lent since traditionally you are supposed to abstain from eggs during Lent.

I won't suggest you do homework, but I will suggest you think about these things. Follow this train of thought. Ask yourself why non English Christians call the feast Pascha/resurrection day. Consider then that the term Easter does not predate this earlier name of the feast. Then ask if that is the earliest name of the feast where does the word Pascha derive from? You would then discover it is obviously derived from the Jewish Pascha (The Greek word for Passover).

What then would you conclude after this point? I'll leave it to you.
What? You should do your homework.
In 325 AD – Emperor Constantine in the Council Nice ordered all Churches to celebrate the Resurrection of Christ on Easter Sunday. The ancient Church had celebrated the Resurrection during the Passover [Nisan 14], which could fall on any day of the week, but the Churches near Rome had abandoned the practice because they hated the Jews, and fixed the date to the first Sunday after the first full moon of Spring. They also called the celebration ‘Easter’, after the pagan goddess of Spring. All of this is verified by the following quote from the Encarta Encyclopedia:

“An important historical result of the difference in reckoning the date of Easter was that the Christian churches in the East, which were closer to the birthplace of the new religion and in which old traditions were strong, observed [the Resurrection] according to the date of the Passover festival. The churches of the West, descendants of Greco-Roman civilization, celebrated Easter on a Sunday.
“Constantine the Great, Roman emperor, convoked the Council of Nicaea in 325. The council unanimously ruled that the Easter festival should be celebrated throughout the Christian world on the first Sunday after the full moon following the vernal equinox; and that if the full moon should occur on a Sunday and thereby coincide with the Passover festival, Easter should be commemorated on the Sunday following. Coincidence of the feasts of Easter and Passover was thus avoided.”
“The name [Easter] probably comes from Eastre, the Anglo-Saxon name of a Teutonic goddess of spring and fertility, to whom was dedicated a month corresponding to April. Her festival was celebrated on the day of the vernal equinox; traditions associated with the festival survive in the Easter rabbit, a symbol of fertility, and in colored easter eggs, originally painted with bright colors to represent the sunlight of spring, and used in Easter-egg rolling contests or given as gifts...” – Encarta Encyclopedia, article: Easter.
.
The following is an actual quote from Constantine showing that at the heart of the Sunday issue was Rome’s hatred for the Jews.

“And truly, in the first place, it seems to everyone a most unworthy thing that we should follow the customs of the Jews in the celebration of this most holy solemnity, who, polluted wretches! having stained their hands with a nefarious crime, are justly blinded in their minds. It is fit, therefore, that rejecting the practice of this people, we should perpetuate to all future ages the celebration of this rite, in a more legitimate order, which we have kept from the first day of our "Lord's" passion even to the present times. Let us then have nothing in common with the most hostile rabble of the Jews.” (Council of Nicea, pg. 52.)
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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What? You should do your homework.
In 325 AD – Emperor Constantine in the Council Nice ordered all Churches to celebrate the Resurrection of Christ on Easter Sunday. The ancient Church had celebrated the Resurrection during the Passover [Nisan 14], which could fall on any day of the week, but the Churches near Rome had abandoned the practice because they hated the Jews, and fixed the date to the first Sunday after the first full moon of Spring. They also called the celebration ‘Easter’, after the pagan goddess of Spring. All of this is verified by the following quote from the Encarta Encyclopedia:

“An important historical result of the difference in reckoning the date of Easter was that the Christian churches in the East, which were closer to the birthplace of the new religion and in which old traditions were strong, observed [the Resurrection] according to the date of the Passover festival. The churches of the West, descendants of Greco-Roman civilization, celebrated Easter on a Sunday.
“Constantine the Great, Roman emperor, convoked the Council of Nicaea in 325. The council unanimously ruled that the Easter festival should be celebrated throughout the Christian world on the first Sunday after the full moon following the vernal equinox; and that if the full moon should occur on a Sunday and thereby coincide with the Passover festival, Easter should be commemorated on the Sunday following. Coincidence of the feasts of Easter and Passover was thus avoided.”
“The name [Easter] probably comes from Eastre, the Anglo-Saxon name of a Teutonic goddess of spring and fertility, to whom was dedicated a month corresponding to April. Her festival was celebrated on the day of the vernal equinox; traditions associated with the festival survive in the Easter rabbit, a symbol of fertility, and in colored easter eggs, originally painted with bright colors to represent the sunlight of spring, and used in Easter-egg rolling contests or given as gifts...” – Encarta Encyclopedia, article: Easter.
.
The following is an actual quote from Constantine showing that at the heart of the Sunday issue was Rome’s hatred for the Jews.

“And truly, in the first place, it seems to everyone a most unworthy thing that we should follow the customs of the Jews in the celebration of this most holy solemnity, who, polluted wretches! having stained their hands with a nefarious crime, are justly blinded in their minds. It is fit, therefore, that rejecting the practice of this people, we should perpetuate to all future ages the celebration of this rite, in a more legitimate order, which we have kept from the first day of our "Lord's" passion even to the present times. Let us then have nothing in common with the most hostile rabble of the Jews.” (Council of Nicea, pg. 52.)

Are you changing your account of the origins of Easter? Is it derived from a German Goddess or Babylonian Goddess? Which one is it? Before we can continue I think you need to clarify what your opinion is. How do you deal with the fact that the earliest references to the feast call it Pascha and that Christians in Non English Speaking countries call it by that name as well?

What does Constantine the quote from Constantine prove? I already know the Council of Nicaea decided the date of Pascha because it was an important matter among Christians that they have uniformity of practice regarding the most sacred festival in all Christendom.
 
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Strong in Him

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Praise YHWH.
YHWH tells us not to worship him in the ways of the Pagan. He hates that. He gives us very specific times, and very specific ways to worship him.

I disagree.
I believe he wants us to praise and worship him always, Psalms 19:1-3, Psalms 71:8, Psalms 34:1, Psalms 96:2, 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18.
 
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StephenDiscipleofYHWH

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The obvious question seems to be if there is a prohibition to celebrate these things or have days dedicated to certain people and themes. Why is it inherently wrong to celebrate the resurrection? Or the incarnation/birth of Christ? The entire liturgical calendar is built for the purpose of reminding us of everything Christ did. Is this truly a bad thing because you don't have direct Apostolic affirmation? This is a standard no one could meet for their practices.
The question is only this, were they given by the Apostles and Christ? If the answer is no then do not keep them. Since we know that they fully preached the traditions that we are to keep, they fully taught us the traditions that Glorify God. We show his death every day in preaching his crucifixion, but only one physical act is commanded to be done as a memorial. We speak of his virgin birth every day and the events surrounding it since that shows exactly the fulfillment of prophecy in his being born that way. We do not keep the anniversary of his birth since it was not taught to be kept by the Apostles and such a custom is seen in scripture to celebrated only by pagans(Herod and the Pharaoh). We celebrate his resurrection every day as the Apostles did. then where is the need to keep only one day? He does not die each year on that anniversary, why do you then seek to limit the day or place value on a anniversary of a day and not glory God's resurrection everyday as the Apostles did and taught?

All things are to be done in accordance with the teachings of God. He said only keep what the Apostles and Christ gave us. We follow the example of the Apostles, not our own customs.

Philippians 4:9
9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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The question is only this, were they given by the Apostles and Christ? If the answer is no then do not keep them. Since we know that they fully preached the traditions that we are to keep, they fully taught us the traditions that Glorify God. We show his death every day in preaching his crucifixion, but only one physical act is commanded to be done as a memorial. We speak of his virgin birth every day and the events surrounding it since that shows exactly the fulfillment of prophecy in his being born that way. We do not keep the anniversary of his birth since it was not taught to be kept by the Apostles and such a custom is seen in scripture to celebrated only by pagans(Herod and the Pharaoh). We celebrate his resurrection every day as the Apostles did. then where is the need to keep only one day? He does not die each year on that anniversary, why do you then seek to limit the day or place value on a anniversary of a day and not glory God's resurrection everyday as the Apostles did and taught?

All things are to be done in accordance with the teachings of God. He said only keep what the Apostles and Christ gave us. We follow the example of the Apostles, not our own customs.

Philippians 4:9
9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

Again, where is the prohibition? How far do you extend this principle of doing nothing the Apostles didn't do? Do you live in a community where you share all things in common and if not don't you go against what the Apostles did?

I see nowhere in scripture where the Church isn't free to decide upon it's liturgical year. I would also point out that the Christian Pascha is derived from the Jewish one, albeit we put the focus on Jesus Christ rather than the Exodus.

I would also point out, the celebration of the birth of Christ is not a mere birthday. It is a celebration of our salvation being born into the world and a time for reflection on such. If we go by this standard it would be improper to have sunday dedicated to the entrance of the Lord into Jerusalem. Or a Sunday of the Prodigal son.

Can you point me to a scripture that says it is sinful to worship on Christmas? Or to consider the incarnation on that day?
 
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Der Alte

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(CLV) Jer 10:2
Thus says Yahweh: The way of the nations, do not learn, And by the signs of the heavens, do not be dismayed, Though the nations are being dismayed by them.
(CLV) Jer 10:3
Indeed concerning the statutes of the peoples, it all is vanity, For one cuts it down, a tree from the wildwood, The work of an artificer's hands with an adz;
(CLV) Jer 10:4
With silver and with gold he makes it lovely; With nails and with hammers they fasten it, so that it cannot quaver.
You continue to quote scripture out-of-context trying to make it say what it does not say. Can you show us a verse anywhere which speaks of pagans worshiping trees?
Jeremiah 0:3-10
3 For the customs of the peoples are vanity; for it is but a tree which one cutteth out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman with the axe.
4 They deck it with silver and with gold, they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
5 They are like a pillar in a garden of cucumbers, and speak not; they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them, for they cannot do evil, neither is it in them to do good.
A decorated tree is not expected to move, vs. 4, speak, go, do evil or good but an idol is.
6 There is none like unto Thee, O LORD; Thou art great, and Thy name is great in might.
7 Who would not fear Thee, O king of the nations? For it befitteth Thee; forasmuch as among all the wise men of the nations, and in all their royalty, there is none like unto Thee.
8 But they are altogether brutish and foolish: the vanities by which they are instructed are but a stock;
9 Silver beaten into plates which is brought from Tarshish, and gold from Uphaz, the work of the craftsman and of the hands of the goldsmith; blue and purple is their clothing; they are all the work of skilful men.
Anybody can put up a tree but these idols require craftsmen, they beat precious metal into thin sheets and cover a carved wooden idol, then they dress them in purple the color of royalty. Idols not decorated trees.
10 But the LORD God is the true God, He is the living God, and the everlasting King; at His wrath the earth trembleth, and the nations are not able to abide His indignation.
Jeremiah 0:11
11 Thus shall ye say unto them: 'The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, these shall perish from the earth, and from under the heavens.'
Jeremiah 0:14
14 Every man is proved to be brutish, without knowledge, every goldsmith is put to shame by the graven image, his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them.
"Gods" graven and molten images not decorated trees. Idols of pagan gods they expect to act and do good things for them.



 
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prodromos

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(CLV) Jer 10:2
Thus says Yahweh: The way of the nations, do not learn, And by the signs of the heavens, do not be dismayed, Though the nations are being dismayed by them.
(CLV) Jer 10:3
Indeed concerning the statutes of the peoples, it all is vanity, For one cuts it down, a tree from the wildwood, The work of an artificer's hands with an adz;
(CLV) Jer 10:4
With silver and with gold he makes it lovely; With nails and with hammers they fasten it, so that it cannot quaver.
What Jeremiah describes is someone making an idol. It is not a decorated tree but rather the wood of the tree has been carved into a representation of whatever god they worshiped.
 
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HARK!

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What Jeremiah describes is someone making an idol. It is not a decorated tree but rather the wood of the tree has been carved into a representation of whatever god they worshiped.

Then why does it need to be fixed so that it doesn't waiver?

C'mon!
 
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