Mark of the beast, Anti-Christ and False Prophet Discussion.

[Douggg]

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Yes, the city is different information but it is for the SAME Gentiles. All John is telling us is that GENTILES have arrived in the city that is mostly inhabited by Jews. It seems not just a few Gentiles. They will be there only for 42 months, which will end just before Armageddon.

Gentiles just means non-Jews. It does not mean all gentiles are part of the beast's army. The gentiles worshiping in the outer court will be pilgrims from the nations.

 

[Douggg]

It is for sure that at least SOME Time before the midpoint there will be people worshiping there.

So you are saying John measures the temple sometime in the first half?

Daniel tells us that there will be 1260 days from the midpoint to the end of the week. John agrees with that. Notice, FROM the midpoint TO the end of the week: 1260 days. That is a precedent on HOW to use these numbers.

"1260" days, the term, is not anywhere in Daniel.

Here is where the units are found and whether they are in the first half or second half.

first half (the heads have crowns, the horns no crowns)
1260 days - Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6

in the second half (the heads no crowns, one head mortally wounded/healed, the horn crowns)
3 1/2 days - Revelation 11:11
42 months - Revelation 11:2, Revelation 13:5
time, times, half times - Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7, Revelation 12:7

 

[iamlamad]

Not possible, because John is told to measure (count) them within the temple worshiping in verse 1. And worshiping is stopped during the time the armies of the beast are occupying Jerusalem.

1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

So you are saying then that John wrote these verses backwards, out of timing order: the two witnesses should have been in verse 1, and the 42 months of trampling should have been in verse 2. NOT! We don't have any right to rearrange, not even in our theories.

HOW do you KNOW that worshiping is stopped? Maybe John is told to count the worshipers BEFORE the city is to be trampled. If you look, all the verbs are Aorist tense verbs EXCEPT "shall they tread" which is future tense. It is difficult to determine any kind of timing in a Greek Aorist verb; but a future tense is easy: it is future. Therefore your reasoning is flaky at best.
The very fact that John wrote of the 42 months before he wrote of the 1260 days is proof that the 42 months countdown will start first.

Question: why would you allow human reasoning to outweigh what is written?

 

[iamlamad]

So you are saying John measures the temple sometime in the first half?

"1260" days, the term, is not anywhere in Daniel.

Here is where the units are found and whether they are in the first half or second half.

first half (the heads have crowns, the horns no crowns)
1260 days - Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6

in the second half (the heads no crowns, one head mortally wounded/healed, the horn crowns)
3 1/2 days - Revelation 11:11
42 months - Revelation 11:2, Revelation 13:5
time, times, half times - Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7, Revelation 12:7

How many times must I say this? Revelation 11:1-2-3 are just DAYS (probably 3 1/2 days) BEFORE the man of sin will enter the temple and declare he is God (the 7th trumpet will mark this time). So yes, very very LATE in the first half; probably only 3 1/2 days before the abomination.

"1260" days, the term, is not anywhere in Daniel. This is true: I should have written, time, times and half of time. However, we are talking about the very same period of time, no matter how it is labeled.

1260 days - Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6 BOGUS. Your theory is in error. You are rearranging Revelation and your theory will be proven wrong.

3 1/2 days - Revelation 11:11
42 months - Revelation 11:2, Revelation 13:5
time, times, half times - Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7, Revelation 12:7 You get this part right. The truth is, EVERY mention of the 3 1/2 year period of time, whether given in days, months or times, is of the last half of the week. You are going to find out this is truth eventually, anyway. Why not begin to believe it now? Another truth, John's written chronology outweights human reasoning every time.

 

[iamlamad]

Gentiles just means non-Jews. It does not mean all gentiles are part of the beast's army. The gentiles worshiping in the outer court will be pilgrims from the nations.

This is just more human reasoning. When John mentioned worshipers, it was WITHIN. There is nothing written about anyone worshiping in the court. Why would you even think there will be any Gentiles worshiping outside a Jewish temple in these days? If there are any Gentiles there, and there will be, they will be heathens who don't believe or Christians - and neither group will be worshiping in a temple court.

 

[iamlamad]

The 70th week begins with the rider on the white horse, revealed when the first seal is removed from the scroll.

You can follow the masses and pull the first seal out of its 32 AD context, but you are mistaken. Go back and study chapters 4 & 5 that are the context of the first seal. John shows us 32 AD TIMING: Jesus ascending and sending the Holy Spirit down.

You imagine very strange things: that John (and the Holy Spirit) would use white 16 times to represent righteousness and then once to represent evil. Doug, it is NEVER going to happen! God is consistent! The white on the horse is to represent righteousness. It is to represent the CHURCH. They were the only light in the world. That seal is the church taking the gospel to the world.

Where John changes from history to future is between the 5th and 6th seals. the 5th seal are the martyrs of the church age. The 6th seal starts the Day of the Lord. The church has been waiting at the 5th seal for the FINAL martyr of the church age now for a long time. Soon the 6th seal will be opened, the rapture will take place, and the Day of the Lord will come.

 

[iamlamad]

There's your mistake. You are applying a math issue of conversion of units.

And not considering why there are the different units given in Revelation.

I know: you IMAGINE God used the different units so you could now first half or second half. Your theories are proven wrong. I think the real reason is simple: days are a more accurate count. And another reason, God wanted there to be NO DOUBT that John was speaking of the very same period of time Daniel wrote of: time, times and half of time.

 

[Douggg]

I think the real reason is simple: days are a more accurate count. And another reason, God wanted there to be NO DOUBT that John was speaking of the very same period of time Daniel wrote of: time, times and half of time.

lamad, that is irrational. If the different timeframes were all exactly 1260 days in terms of days - then they would all be written as 1260 days. How does 42 months make 1260 days more accurate than 1260 days?

 

[Douggg]

You can follow the masses and pull the first seal out of its 32 AD context, but you are mistaken. Go back and study chapters 4 & 5 that are the context of the first seal. John shows us 32 AD TIMING: Jesus ascending and sending the Holy Spirit down.

I thought you advocate a straight through interpretation of Revelation.
Here you are wanting me to go backwards in the text for the timing of the first seal.

The white on the horse is to represent righteousness. It is to represent the CHURCH. They were the only light in the world. That seal is the church taking the gospel to the world.

Jesus is riding a white horse in Revelation 19, as being the messiah.

The rider on the white horse in the first seal is the Antichrist - perceived messiah at the beginning of the 7 years.

Soon the 6th seal will be opened, the rapture will take place, and the Day of the Lord will come.

The 6th seal is at the end of the seven years - not at the beginning.
I thought you were pretrib? The heavens do not part at the beginning of the seven years. But at the end, corresponding to Matthew 24:29-30a.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
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I would like to see your timeline chart of events for the 7 year 70th week.

 

[Douggg]

This is just more human reasoning. When John mentioned worshipers, it was WITHIN. There is nothing written about anyone worshiping in the court.

It is implying that them in the outer court are worshiping - because John is told not to count (measure) them, but just them worshiping in the temple proper - which is the sanctuary and the inner court. The outer court and the city are two different things. The city is outside of the walls of the temple.

In the time of the second temple, the outer court of the temple complex was called the court of the gentiles.

 

[Douggg]

1260 days - Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6 BOGUS. Your theory is in error. You are rearranging Revelation and your theory will be proven wrong.

Note the crowns/no crowns on the heads and the horns. They are different for the first half and second half.

The 1260 days in Revelation 12:6, has the first half crowns/no crowns.

The 42 months in Revelation 13:5, has the second half crowns/no crowns.

They are different because the 1260 days (Revelation 12:6) is the first half. And the 42 months (Revelation 13:5) is in the second half.


first half (the heads have crowns, the horns no crowns)
1260 days - Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6

in the second half (the heads no crowns, one head mortally wounded/healed, the horn crowns)
3 1/2 days - Revelation 11:11
42 months - Revelation 11:2, Revelation 13:5
time, times, half times - Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7, Revelation 12:7

 

[iamlamad]

lamad, that is irrational. If the different timeframes were all exactly 1260 days in terms of days - then they would all be written as 1260 days. How does 42 months make 1260 days more accurate than 1260 days?

What if it is 1261 or 1262 days? Or perhaps 1258 days. Could 42 months cover that? Would God have to say 42 months and one day?
God knows the exact time; we don't. I still say when God says 1260 days, it is going to be accurate to the very day. I am not so sure that 42 months count must be accurate to the very day.

If you wish to guess that God used days to refer to the first half of the week, and months to refer to the second half, or some other scheme (and it is only a wild guess) - It is ok to be wrong.

 

[Douggg]

What if it is 1261 or 1262 days? Or perhaps 1258 days. Could 42 months cover that? Would God have to say 42 months and one day?

You are off into some hypothetical world - in a case of - if the scriptures were different.

Deal with what is in the scriptures. Not a hypothetical world of different text.

lamad, it is not that complicated.

Revelation 11:3-7 + Revelation 11:8-11 + Revelation 11:2

1260 days + the 3 1/2 days + the 42 months (1256.5 days) = the seven years

 

[iamlamad]

Note the crowns/no crowns on the heads and the horns. They are different for the first half and second half.

The 1260 days in Revelation 12:6, has the first half crowns/no crowns.

The 42 months in Revelation 13:5, has the second half crowns/no crowns.

They are different because the 1260 days (Revelation 12:6) is the first half. And the 42 months (Revelation 13:5) is in the second half.


first half (the heads have crowns, the horns no crowns)
1260 days - Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6

in the second half (the heads no crowns, one head mortally wounded/healed, the horn crowns)
3 1/2 days - Revelation 11:11
42 months - Revelation 11:2, Revelation 13:5
time, times, half times - Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7, Revelation 12:7

No, they are different because it is a different being: Satan is the being in chapter 12, called the Dragon. It is the man of sin turned Beast in chapter 13. BOTH are speaking of the last half of the week.

Both Satan and the Beast have seven heads and ten horns. Satan has seven crowns on his seven heads, while the Beast has ten crowns on his ten horns. Since BOTH are concerned with the second half of the week, your theory is bogus. Satan's seven heads are the seven kingdoms over time that he tried to use to destroy Israel. Each head also represented a king over a kingdom so the 7 crowns. These do not change in either half of teh week.

The beast of chapter 13 has the same seven heads but here the crowns are on the ten horns. During the second half of the week, the Beast will end up the 8th king over the 7: without a doubt the same land areas of the original 7 kingdoms spread out over time, but all the 7 together at the end. The ten crowns must be for the ten nations that throne in with the Beast for one hour.

In truth, this has nothing to do with the first half of the week versus the second half. They are different Beasts: one is the Dragon who is Satan, and the other is Satan's henchman for the last half of the week.

 

[iamlamad]

You are off into some hypothetical world - in a case of - if the scriptures were different.

Deal with what is in the scriptures. Not a hypothetical world of different text.

lamad, it is not that complicated.

Revelation 11:3-7 + Revelation 11:8-11 + Revelation 11:2

1260 days + the 3 1/2 days + the 42 months (1256.5 days) = the seven years

You can write that over and over ever day till Jesus comes: it is still going to be only human imagination and I am not going to buy it. I know all five mentions of the 3.5 year period of time are for the last half of the week: I see it in scripture and Jesus spoke WORDS to me telling me that very thing.

OF COURSE if you add up the second half with the second have the answer will be a whole or 7 years. It is simple: 1/2 + 1/2 = 1. It proves absolutely nothing.

Let's just agree to ask Jesus when we arrive. He has already told me: we will allow Him to tell you.

I do know this: John gave us this same period of time, the last half of the week, THREE DIFFERENT WAYS so we would not miss it: but miss it you have.

 

[iamlamad]

It is implying that them in the outer court are worshiping - because John is told not to count (measure) them, but just them worshiping in the temple proper - which is the sanctuary and the inner court. The outer court and the city are two different things. The city is outside of the walls of the temple.

In the time of the second temple, the outer court of the temple complex was called the court of the gentiles.

View attachment 275267

11 Then there was given to me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, “Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar [of incense], and [count] those who worship in it. 2 But leave out the court [of the Gentiles] which is outside the temple and do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles (the nations); and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months (three and one-half years). (Amp)

I see no hint that there will be people worshiping in the outer court. Neither can I even wildly guess that at the midpoint of the week there would be Gentiles worshiping at a Jewish temple. In Jesus day, yes, but in our future? If there are gentiles that worship, they are going to be worshiping Jesus wherever they are.

 

[iamlamad]

I thought you advocate a straight through interpretation of Revelation.
Here you are wanting me to go backwards in the text for the timing of the first seal.


Jesus is riding a white horse in Revelation 19, as being the messiah.

The rider on the white horse in the first seal is the Antichrist - perceived messiah at the beginning of the 7 years.


The 6th seal is at the end of the seven years - not at the beginning.
I thought you were pretrib? The heavens do not part at the beginning of the seven years. But at the end, corresponding to Matthew 24:29-30a.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
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I would like to see your timeline chart of events for the 7 year 70th week.

I follow the text of the book where it leads. John started with the book in the hand of the father. When was that? It was before Christ raised from the dead. So John really started before the church age. Of course that is where John started because that is where the vision started.

I see God showing John in the vision pretty much a lineal time line: the first seal as the church with the gospel and the second, third and fourth seal as the devil trying to stop the gospel. The 5th seal for the church age martyrs, and the church stil waiting their for the final martyr. The 6th seal is future as the start of the Day of the Lord.

The rider on the white horse in the first seal is the Antichrist - perceived messiah at the beginning of the 7 years. Sorry, WRONG! You cannot get there except by pulling the first seal out of its 32 AD context. Back up and read chapter 5: John saw the moment Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. It is there for a PURPOSE: the context of the first seal. You really don't know much about JOhn's chronology!

Why would the martyrs wonder how long if they were 70th week martyrs? They would all know they had only to wait out the rest of the 7 years. On the other hand, the RIGHT hand in this case, Stephen would have had no idea how long the age of grace would last. The 5th seal are the martyrs of the church age!

Paul tells us that the Day of the Lord will follow RIGHT AFTER the rapture. It will be the age of grace, then a moment later the DAy of the Lord. This puts the church at the 5th seal where it has been since the beginning.

The 6th seal is at the end of the seven years - not at the beginning. Sorry, but the struction of the book does not allow such a wild theory. God's goal is to get the BOOK opened, so that the 70th week can begin. (It is what is written inside the book.) But NOTHING inside the book can happen until all the 7 seals are opened first. It is simply impossible to move any seal anywhere. ANY such their will certainly be proven wrong.

The book is opened as soon as the 7th seal is opened. What we read in chapter 7 then is what is written inside the book.

The truth is, John has not even STARTED the week at the 6th seal. You are miles off from the intent of the Author. I am out of time.

 

[Douggg]

In truth, this has nothing to do with the first half of the week versus the second half. They are different Beasts: one is the Dragon who is Satan, and the other is Satan's henchman for the last half of the week.

lamad, you have left one critical person out. It is not two persons, but three involved, in Revelation 12, 13, 17.

Revelation 17
person 1. Satan, who is seen in the vision.
person 2. the beast, the ancient person in the bottomless pit as a disembodied spirit, Revelation 17:8a
person 3. the beast, the end times person, who the world will witness killed and come back to life, Revelation 17:8b

Revelation 12
person 1. Satan, who is seen in the vision.
person 2. the beast, the ancient person, the disembodied spirit, still in the bottomless pit.
person 3. the end times person, come to power as king 7, before the 7 years

Revelation 13
person 1. Satan, worshiped, restricted to earth. (incarnates the image of the beast)
person 2. the beast, the ancient person, as a spirit has come out of the bottomless pit to possess the end times person.
person 3. the end times person, having been killed, come back to life, as king 8.

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Satan is the power behind the ancient person, and the end times person. And will have cut deals with both.

The ancient person - the beast in the garden, who Satan used, to cause the downfall of man. Which it appears a deal was made, that Satan would make that beast the ruler of the world.

The end times person - that person will make a deal with Satan, to achieve God-hood.
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So there are three persons involved.

In Revelation 17, the ancient person is the bottomless pit. Only Satan, the power behind that ancient person, can be seen in Revelation 17.

In Revelation 12, with 7 years in that chapter, the ancient person is still in the bottomless pit. So Satan is seen in the vision.

In Revelation 13, with 42 months left, the ancient person (a spirit) has come out of the bottomless pit to possess the end times person. The vision in Revelation 13 is the end times person, and the beast that has come out of the bottomless pit.

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The visions in Revelation 12, 13, 17, crowns/no crowns, are all different because of where the ancient person is in those chapters.
.
Revelation 17 - in the bottomless pit, 1st century, time of John
Revelation 12 - in the bottomless pit - 7years left
Revelation 13 - out of the bottomless pit - 42 months left.

 

[Douggg]

I see no hint that there will be people worshiping in the outer court. Neither can I even wildly guess that at the midpoint of the week there would be Gentiles worshiping at a Jewish temple. In Jesus day, yes, but in our future? If there are gentiles that worship, they are going to be worshiping Jesus wherever they are.

It is not at the midpoint, it is in the first half.

Them worshiping in the temple complex proper will be the Jews, conducting animal sacrifices. The altar where the animal sacrifices were made was just outside the entry to the sanctuary building.

In the outer court, will be gentile pilgrims come to worship God, just as in the days of the second temple.

It is all in the first half.

 

[iamlamad]

lamad, you have left one critical person out. It is not two persons, but three involved, in Revelation 12, 13, 17.

Revelation 17
person 1. Satan, who is seen in the vision.
person 2. the beast, the ancient person in the bottomless pit as a disembodied spirit, Revelation 17:8a
person 3. the beast, the end times person, who the world will witness killed and come back to life, Revelation 17:8b

Revelation 12
person 1. Satan, who is seen in the vision.
person 2. the beast, the ancient person, the disembodied spirit, still in the bottomless pit.
person 3. the end times person, come to power as king 7, before the 7 years

Revelation 13
person 1. Satan, worshiped, restricted to earth. (incarnates the image of the beast)
person 2. the beast, the ancient person, as a spirit has come out of the bottomless pit to possess the end times person.
person 3. the end times person, having been killed, come back to life, as king 8.

_________________________________________________________________________
Satan is the power behind the ancient person, and the end times person. And will have cut deals with both.

The ancient person - the beast in the garden, who Satan used, to cause the downfall of man. Which it appears a deal was made, that Satan would make that beast the ruler of the world.

The end times person - that person will make a deal with Satan, to achieve God-hood.
_________________________________________________________________________

So there are three persons involved.

In Revelation 17, the ancient person is the bottomless pit. Only Satan, the power behind that ancient person, can be seen in Revelation 17.

In Revelation 12, with 7 years in that chapter, the ancient person is still in the bottomless pit. So Satan is seen in the vision.

In Revelation 13, with 42 months left, the ancient person (a spirit) has come out of the bottomless pit to possess the end times person. The vision in Revelation 13 is the end times person, and the beast that has come out of the bottomless pit.

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The visions in Revelation 12, 13, 17, crowns/no crowns, are all different because of where the ancient person is in those chapters.
.
Revelation 17 - in the bottomless pit, 1st century, time of John
Revelation 12 - in the bottomless pit - 7years left
Revelation 13 - out of the bottomless pit - 42 months left.

We were only talking about chapters 11 and 12. The Beast in chapter 17 is the spiritual power behind the man of sin turned Beast in chapter 13. This chapter 17 beast comes up out of the bottomless pit. It is without a doubt, Satan himself. He is and has always been the destroyer. His persona? To steal, kill, and destroy. So the Beast of chapter 17 is really the same as the Dragon in chapter 12. However, at that time Satan will probably be inside (possessing) the man of sin turned Beast.

You seem to imagine that the man of sin turned Beast dies and comes back to life. I don't think that is what the scriptures tell us. Chapter 17 tells us that the 7 heads are 7 kingdoms (with respective kings) that spread out over time exercising power over Israel: many believe Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece (The five who had come and gone by John's time) Rome, and the 7th which is future. It is ONE of these heads that receive a deadly wound during the end times and recovers. I think it is speaking of Iraq. This nation was thoroughly defeated by the sword and the "king" put to death. I look for Iraq (Babylon) to return to the Muslim Brotherhood soon: the deadly wound healed. Iraq must be a part of the Beast's end time empire.

Are you calling the devil "a person?"

Revelation 17 - in the bottomless pit, 1st century, time of John
Revelation 12 - in the bottomless pit - 7years left
Revelation 13 - out of the bottomless pit - 42 months left.

You are rearranging what John wrote and your theory will certainly be proven wrong. The midpoint - that point in the week where the abomination will take place and divide the week into two halves - is in chapter 11. Chapter 11 gives us TWO (2) starting point countdowns to the end of the week, PROVING it is a midpoint chapter. Chapter 12 comes after chapter 11. There is NO WAY there is 7 years left in chapter 12! There is LESS time left in chapter 12 that in chapter 11. The fleeing in 12:6 are those in Judea fleeing because they have seen the abomination. Therefore this point in chapter 12 is only seconds after the abomination but definitely AFTER. It would therefore be 1260 days to the end MINUS a few seconds.

The three beings involved: Satan as the force behind it all: The man of sin turned beast (after being possessed by Satan) - a very real, flesh and blood human being; and then the false prophet, another very real, flesh and blood human being.

If you imagine another, "the ancient person (a spirit)" please show us a scripture to back it up.

Note carefully, NO HUMAN EVER except Jesus Christ has come up out of the bottomless pit. I might add, and never will except by God's power.

It is SATAN, the destroyer, who comes up and leads the stinging locusts.