Mark of the beast, Anti-Christ and False Prophet Discussion.

[Douggg]

Did you forget about the 144,000? They are in the first half of the week.

And how did they become Christians if not by the testimony of the two witnesses, in Jerusalem during the first half?

 

[iamlamad]

The begin 1260 days before the end of their testimony.

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Indeed, you have given a "safe" answer and true. However, John saw them suddenly appear and wrote it in his narrative in chapter 11, a MIDPOINT chapter.

You seem to think that their entire 1260 days plays out in chapter 11. So in that case, those fleeing the abomination would not begin fleeing until the end of the week.

People that understand this problem with the text are forced to do one of two things: add a parenthesis, or rearrange their sudden appearance back to the beginning of the week. I think it makes far more sense to believe John wrote some of those verses with a parenthesis in mind.

As far as I know, no one believes the 42 months of trampling begin and end in 11:2. No one thinks that the 1260 days of fleeing begin and end in 12:6. No one believes that the 42 months of authority begins and ends right there in chapter 13. As far as I know, most people believe these verses of "first mention" are the STARTING POINT of a countdown to the end of the week.

Therefore it makes perfect sense that the one out of five mentions of the same period of time be considered the same way. John takes the reader on a SIDE JOURNEY down the path of the two witnesses with a parenthesis. In fact, John does the same thing in chapter 13, taking the readers down the path of the last half of the week with the two Beasts, showing us what they will do later in the week. Again, I have never met anyone that thinks the Beast and False Prophet's word ENDS in chapter 13. Chapter 13 is a midpoint chapter and that is when the 42 months BEGINS.

Therefore, for all five of these mentions of the 3.5 year period of time, whether written in days, months or times, their verse of mention is only the STARTING point for their countdown. Since the end of the week is in chapter 16, all these countdowns will be simultaneously counting down, as in parallel paths, to chapter 16. The exception is the 42 months of authority. It started last so will end last in chapter 19.

 

[iamlamad]

And how did they become Christians if not by the testimony of the two witnesses, in Jerusalem during the first half?

John does not tell us, so we can only guess. My guess is, they SEE the rapture or part of it. Perhaps they see the church flying away towards heaven and suddenly they KNOW the New Testament is TRUTH. It is only a guess.

 

[Douggg]

You seem to think that their entire 1260 days plays out in chapter 11. So in that case, those fleeing the abomination would not begin fleeing until the end of the week.

No, you have come to the wrong conclusion regarding what I wrote.

In chapter 11, the two witnesses finish their testimony time at the 1260 day point on the 7 year timeline.

The fleeing begins in the first half (on day 1185, 1335 days before Jesus returns), 75 days before the 1260 day point, and the fleeing continues for the rest of the 7 years.

As far as I know, no one believes the 42 months of trampling begin and end in 11:2.

Revelation 11:2 does not mean that 42 months begin and end during the 1260 days of the two witnesses. It means that the city will be under occupation by the beast's army for 42 months, until Jesus returns.

No one believes that the 42 months of authority begins and ends right there in chapter 13.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

So what's the problem?

The person first is found in Daniel 7 as the little horn (king 7 of the Revelation 17:10 series of Julio Claudian kings of the Roman empire).

Then he in Daniel 8, he heads south and east into the middle east
As the prince who come in Daniel 9, following Gog/Magog.

The Jews then mistake him as being the messiah. The false prophet anoints him as the King of Israel. Making him the Antichrist, who confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant for the 7 years of Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

In the first half, around 3 years into the 7 years, he betrays the Jews, claiming to be God. They impeach him as their King of Israel. Ending his time as the Antichrist. And beginning his time as the revealed man of sin.

God has the person killed (Ezekiel 28:1-10), ending his time as king 7.

In Isaiah 14:15-20, in disdain for the person, God brings him back to life. Which at that time, the person enters the beast phase.

The false prophet has the image made of the beast, and it is placed in the temple on day 1185, and the Jews begin to flee, as the two witnesses battle with the beast, which he kills them, on day 1260.

In Revelation 13, unhampered by the two witnesses, no longer here on the earth, the beast continues for the short space of 42 months.

As king 8 of the Roman Empire series of Julio-Claudian kings.

 

[iamlamad]

No, you have come to the wrong conclusion regarding what I wrote.

In chapter 11, the two witnesses finish their testimony time at the 1260 day point on the 7 year timeline.

The fleeing begins in the first half (on day 1185, 1335 days before Jesus returns), 75 days before the 1260 day point, and the fleeing continues for the rest of the 7 years.

Revelation 11:2 does not mean that 42 months begin and end during the 1260 days of the two witnesses. It means that the city will be under occupation by the beast's army for 42 months, until Jesus returns.


Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

So what's the problem?

The person first is found in Daniel 7 as the little horn (king 7 of the Revelation 17:10 series of Julio Claudian kings of the Roman empire).

Then he in Daniel 8, he heads south and east into the middle east
As the prince who come in Daniel 9, following Gog/Magog.

The Jews then mistake him as being the messiah. The false prophet anoints him as the King of Israel. Making him the Antichrist, who confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant for the 7 years of Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

In the first half, around 3 years into the 7 years, he betrays the Jews, claiming to be God. They impeach him as their King of Israel. Ending his time as the Antichrist. And beginning his time as the revealed man of sin.

God has the person killed (Ezekiel 28:1-10), ending his time as king 7.

In Isaiah 14:15-20, in disdain for the person, God brings him back to life. Which at that time, the person enters the beast phase.

The false prophet has the image made of the beast, and it is placed in the temple on day 1185, and the Jews begin to flee, as the two witnesses battle with the beast, which he kills them, on day 1260.

In Revelation 13, unhampered by the two witnesses, no longer here on the earth, the beast continues for the short space of 42 months.

As king 8 of the Roman Empire series of Julio-Claudian kings.

In chapter 11, the two witnesses finish their testimony time at the 1260 day point on the 7 year timeline. So what you do is even worse than imagining the entire 1260 days takes place in chapter 11: you move their appearance out of chapter 11 where John put and imagine they show up back at the 7th seal that begins the week.

Please, tell us all WHY you feel you have to move their starting point from chapter 11 to somewhere else? Do you know that the 7th trumpet is midpoint timing?

The fleeing begins in the first half (on day 1185, 1335 days before Jesus returns), 75 days before the 1260 day point, and the fleeing continues for the rest of the 7 years.
Then John was mistaken about their fleeing for 1260 days. So you have to correct John Sorry, but I am going to go with John here. They flee for exactly 1260 days - or else John and God were mistaken. By the way, your 1185 and 1335 days, the way you imagine them, are bogus. The week is divided at the 1260 day point, NOT ANYWHERE ELSE! Can you find 1185 or 44.5 months ANYWHERE in chapters 11 through 13? No, because it is not there. In stead we find the truth: 42 months twice and 1260 days twice: showing us the REAL division of the week.

It really does not matter how many times anyone writes nonsense: it is still never going to be truth. It will always remain nonsense.

It means that the city will be under occupation by the beast's army for 42 months, until Jesus returns. Finally! Thank God! You have one sentence out of this post correct.

Does it not dawn on you how strange it would be for God, writing history in advance, to have one sentence about a future 42 months, and the very next sentence about 1260 days that have already past? Sorry, Revelation is not written like that.

 

[iamlamad]

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

So what's the problem?

The person first is found in Daniel 7 as the little horn (king 7 of the Revelation 17:10 series of Julio Claudian kings of the Roman empire).

Then he in Daniel 8, he heads south and east into the middle east
As the prince who come in Daniel 9, following Gog/Magog.

The Jews then mistake him as being the messiah. The false prophet anoints him as the King of Israel. Making him the Antichrist, who confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant for the 7 years of Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

In the first half, around 3 years into the 7 years, he betrays the Jews, claiming to be God. They impeach him as their King of Israel. Ending his time as the Antichrist. And beginning his time as the revealed man of sin.

God has the person killed (Ezekiel 28:1-10), ending his time as king 7.

In Isaiah 14:15-20, in disdain for the person, God brings him back to life. Which at that time, the person enters the beast phase.

The false prophet has the image made of the beast, and it is placed in the temple on day 1185, and the Jews begin to flee, as the two witnesses battle with the beast, which he kills them, on day 1260.

In Revelation 13, unhampered by the two witnesses, no longer here on the earth, the beast continues for the short space of 42 months.

As king 8 of the Roman Empire series of Julio-Claudian kings.

I think all this is nothing but myth. But free free to continue believing it!
By the way, I did not see any problem between chapter 13 and chapter 17.

 

[Douggg]

So what you do is even worse than imagining the entire 1260 days takes place in chapter 11: you move their appearance out of chapter 11 where John put and imagine they show up back at the 7th seal that begins the week.

I am not moving the 1260 days anywhere. The 1260 days are the first half. Then the 3 1/2 days. Then the 42 months.

In Revelation 11...

Revelation 11:3-7 + Revelation 11:8-11 + Revelation 11:2

1260 days + the 3 1/2 days + the 42 months (1256.5 days) = the seven years

The seventh seal on the scroll is not something that can be put on the 7 year timeline - because when it was opened it revealed everything remaining in the scroll. i.e. Chapter 7 -22. Which has historical, as well as present to John's time, as well as future of John's time, and future of our time, events.

Then John was mistaken about their fleeing for 1260 days. So you have to correct John Sorry, but I am going to go with John here. They flee for exactly 1260 days - or else John and God were mistaken.

The instructions for the Jews, regarding the aboimination of desolation, them in Judaea to flee to the mountains is in Matthew 24:15-20. It is not in Revelation.

The Jews don't read the new testament. The reason the Jews will know to flee is because the two witnesses in Jerusalem will be prophesying and testifying to them during the 1260 day first half.

By the way, your 1185 and 1335 days, the way you imagine them, are bogus. The week is divided at the 1260 day point, NOT ANYWHERE ELSE! Can you find 1185 or 44.5 months ANYWHERE in chapters 11 through 13?

I am not claiming the week in divided by the 1335 days, day 1185 on the timeline. The daily sacrifice is stopped in the midst of the week. Not on the exact midpoint.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

All of the timeframes fit within the 7 year, 70th week. Which your view extends beyond the 70th week.

Does it not dawn on you how strange it would be for God, writing history in advance, to have one sentence about a future 42 months, and the very next sentence about 1260 days that have already past? Sorry, Revelation is not written like that.

The 42 months are not synonymous with the 1260 day testimony time of the two witnesses.

And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

(1) for it is given over to the Gentiles:

During the first half, there will be worship going on by the Jews in the temple proper itself. Which John counted (measured) them. But John was told not to include the outer court, because I am concluding the gentiles will be worshiping in that area of the temple complex.

(2) and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

This is additional and different information. It is no longer talking about the outer court, but is now talking about the city of Jerusalem. It is informing about the gentile armies of the beast occupying Jerusalem, during the 42 months in the second half.

Can you find 1185 or 44.5 months ANYWHERE in chapters 11 through 13?

(day) 1185 is a calculated day on the 7 years timeline. It is not written anywhere in Revelation as 1185. Nor anywhere in the bible.

It is a calculated day on the 7 year timeline by subtracting 1335 days in Daniel 12:12 from the last day of the 7 years, day 2520, the day Jesus returns.

 

[Douggg]

During the first half, there will be worship going on by the Jews in the temple proper itself. Which John counted (measured) them. But John was told not to include the outer court, because I am concluding the gentiles will be worshiping in that area of the temple complex.

I have some additional comments.

Keep in mind that during most of the 1260 day first half, the Jews and world will be thinking the Antichrist is the messiah and they have entered the messianic age.

During the time of the second temple, the outer court of the temple was referred to as the "court of the gentiles".

So from the nations, gentiles will come and worship in the court of the gentiles - during the time of the Antichrist (anointed King of Israel, but coming in his own name), the world thinking he is the messiah.

John was told not to measure the outer court of the temple.

 

[iamlamad]

I am not moving the 1260 days anywhere. The 1260 days are the first half. Then the 3 1/2 days. Then the 42 months.

Of course you are moving the 1260 days! Where is John timing wise in chapter 11? He is at the midpoint of the week! Where will the countdown for the 42 months start? Of course in 11:2. Close to the midpoint.

|--------------------------Midpoint>>|<<Midpoint------------------------|
|-------------------------------------|42 months >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>|

Next, AFTER the 42 months, the 1260 days.

|--------------------------Midpoint>>|<<Midpoint------------------------|
|-------------------------------------|42 months >> trampling >>>>>>|
|--------------------------------------|1260 days > testifying >>>>>>>|
|-----------------------------------------|1260 days >>> Fleeing >>>>|

Do you see this? John shows us that the 42 months start out just days before the midpoint, with the 1260 days starting very shortly after the 42 months but still before the midpoint. And the 1260 days of fleeing AFTER the midpoint.

|-------------------------Midpoint>>|<<Midpoint------------------------|
|------------------------------------|- 42 months >> trampling >>>>>|
|-------------------------------------|- 1260 days > testifying >>>>>>|
|----------------------------------------|- 1260 days >>> Fleeing >>>|
|----------------------------------------|- 3 1/2 times >> Feeding >>>|
|------------------------------------------|-42 months > authority >>>|

This is the way John wrote it. ANY other theory is rearranging what John wrote. Someone can imagine the first 1260 days is in the first half of the week until they have passed, but when they are gone (if the Lord tarries) those 1260 days of testifying will still be for the last half of the week. God is not going to change His Word to fit some false theory.

The two witnesses SHOW UP and BEGIN their testimony AFTER the start of the 42 months of trampling. (No one knows how long after.) It is not the other way around. The 42 months are stated first, THEN the 1260 days. If they 42 months are for the last half, and they are, then the 1260 days are for the last half.

 

[iamlamad]

In Revelation 11...

Revelation 11:3-7 + Revelation 11:8-11 + Revelation 11:2

1260 days + the 3 1/2 days + the 42 months (1256.5 days) = the seven years

Let's keep this in JOHN'S order! You seem to love to rearrange.

11:2 - 42 months - and 11:3 - 1260 days are PARALLEL times and cannot be added. God never included the first half of the week in any numbers anywhere. To imagine He did is only human imagination.

11:2 - 42 months....parallel with:
11:3 - 1260 days.....parallel with:
12:6 - 1260 days.....parallel with:
12:14 - 3 1/2 times..Parallel with:
13:5 - 42 months.

While the Beast is creating the mark in his 42 months; at the same time
The woman is being fed during her 3 1/2 times; and at the same time,
The woman is fleeing from Judea for 1260 days; and at the same time,
The two witnesses will be testifying for 1260 days; and at the same time,
The city will be being trampled for 42 months.

Any other theory will be rearranging what John wrote and will over course be proven wrong.

 

[iamlamad]

The seventh seal on the scroll is not something that can be put on the 7 year timeline - because when it was opened it revealed everything remaining in the scroll. i.e. Chapter 7 -22. Which has historical, as well as present to John's time, as well as future of John's time, and future of our time, events.

I disagree: the 7th seal allows the 70th week to begin, for the 70th week is what is written INSIDE THE BOOK.

Look how simple God made this: He marked the entire 70th week with 7's:
7th seal starts the week
7th trumpet marks the midpoint
7th vial ends the week.

 

[iamlamad]

The instructions for the Jews, regarding the aboimination of desolation, them in Judaea to flee to the mountains is in Matthew 24:15-20. It is not in Revelation.

The Jews don't read the new testament. The reason the Jews will know to flee is because the two witnesses in Jerusalem will be prophesying and testifying to them during the 1260 day first half.

Sorry, but you missed it yet again. It IS in Revelation. They begin their flight when they see the abomination, and the 7th trumpet will sound when the man of sin enters the temple. So their fleeing is in 12:6. Their protection is 1n 12:14.

You missed it yet again: the Jews DO read the New Testament. They just don't believe much of it. Reading it is a high school course - all but the book of Revelation which they are instructed NOT to read.

Your imagination has overridden the text yet again. Well, you are maybe 1% right: the two witnesses will have 3 1/2 days before the abomination to warn them to flee. However, that is ALL the time they will have, because they only show up and begin their testimony then. Good point.

 

[Douggg]

Of course you are moving the 1260 days! Where is John timing wise in chapter 11? He is at the midpoint of the week!

John is in the future, and has been given a reed like a rod, a standard of length used back in his day. He is told to measure the temple and (count implied) them within. So, since there are people in the temple worshiping, it has to be before the Antichrist has committed the act of going into the temple and stopping the daily sacrifice, and stopping the worship of the One True God.

So John is on the temple mount before the 42 months begin. And during when the two witnesses are testifying. So sometime in the first half.

 

[iamlamad]

I am not claiming the week in divided by the 1335 days, day 1185 on the timeline. The daily sacrifice is stopped in the midst of the week. Not on the exact midpoint.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

All of the timeframes fit within the 7 year, 70th week. Which your view extends beyond the 70th week.

Daniel said the week would be divided into halves. John proves this by showing us the last half 5 times as 1260 days, 42 months and time, times and half of time. I am going to take John's word for this in lieu of yours.

Which your view extends beyond the 70th week. Not my view, Daniel's view.

Question for the readers: does 1260 divide a 2520 day 7 years exactly in half? 30 times 12 times 7 = 2520 days. God always uses a 30 day month in prophecy.
Does 42 months divide the week exactly in half? 30 times 42 = 1260 days. Yes, exactly in half.

It is myth and human imagination that the abomination happens some other time than on the 1260th day. Again, I will believe John in lieu of a human theory.

 

[Douggg]

The two witnesses SHOW UP and BEGIN their testimony AFTER the start of the 42 months of trampling.

Not possible, because John is told to measure (count) them within the temple worshiping in verse 1. And worshiping is stopped during the time the armies of the beast are occupying Jerusalem.

1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

 

[Douggg]

Sorry, but you missed it yet again. It IS in Revelation. They begin their flight when they see the abomination, and the 7th trumpet will sound when the man of sin enters the temple. So their fleeing is in 12:6. Their protection is 1n 12:14.

The Jews do flee in the Revelation events. But the instructions for them to do so is not written out in Revelation.

 

[Douggg]

Daniel said the week would be divided into halves. John proves this by showing us the last half 5 times as 1260 days, 42 months and time, times and half of time. I am going to take John's word for this in lieu of yours.

Daniel did not say the week would be divided into halves. It says in the "midst" of the week in Daniel 9:27. i.e. middle part.

In Revelation, the 1260 days are the first half - exactly.

The other units of 42 months and a time, times, and half time are used because those are not exactly 1260 days. But a little less.

John, not once, says first or second half. We are the ones using that terminology.

 

[Douggg]

Question for the readers: does 1260 divide a 2520 day 7 years exactly in half? 30 times 12 times 7 = 2520 days. God always uses a 30 day month in prophecy.
Does 42 months divide the week exactly in half? 30 times 42 = 1260 days. Yes, exactly in half.

There's your mistake. You are applying a math issue of conversion of units.

And not considering why there are the different units given in Revelation.

 

[iamlamad]

The 42 months are not synonymous with the 1260 day testimony time of the two witnesses.

And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

(1) for it is given over to the Gentiles:

During the first half, there will be worship going on by the Jews in the temple proper itself. Which John counted (measured) them. But John was told not to include the outer court, because I am concluding the gentiles will be worshiping in that area of the temple complex.

(2) and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

This is additional and different information. It is no longer talking about the outer court, but is now talking about the city of Jerusalem. It is informing about the gentile armies of the beast occupying Jerusalem, during the 42 months in the second half.


(day) 1185 is a calculated day on the 7 years timeline. It is not written anywhere in Revelation as 1185. Nor anywhere in the bible.

It is a calculated day on the 7 year timeline by subtracting 1335 days in Daniel 12:12 from the last day of the 7 years, day 2520, the day Jesus returns.

The 42 months are not synonymous with the 1260 day testimony time of the two witnesses.
Not synonymous but PARALLEL; simultaneous. But the 42 month countdown to the end of the week will begin slightly before the 1260 day countdown to the end of the week. For the entire last half of the week, both these countdowns will be counting down simultaneously.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Yes, the city is different information but it is for the SAME Gentiles. All John is telling us is that GENTILES have arrived in the city that is mostly inhabited by Jews. It seems not just a few Gentiles. They will be there only for 42 months, which will end just before Armageddon.

During the first half, there will be worship going on by the Jews in the temple proper itself. This is guess work: human imagination. We don't know when the temple will be completed or when the daily sacrifices begin. They could begin only a month before the midpoint. John does not give us this information. It is for sure that at least SOME Time before the midpoint there will be people worshiping there.

It is informing about the gentile armies of the beast occupying Jerusalem, during the 42 months in the second half.
I agree. But it is the same Gentiles.

(day) 1185 is a calculated day on the 7 years timeline. It is not written anywhere in Revelation as 1185. Nor anywhere in the bible. My sentiments exactly!

It is a calculated day on the 7 year timeline by subtracting 1335 days in Daniel 12:12 from the last day of the 7 years, day 2520, the day Jesus returns Exactly! And there are no instructions anywhere do that. And to do what is like pulling that verse out of its context in Daniel 12. Daniel tells us that there will be 1260 days from the midpoint to the end of the week. John agrees with that. Notice, FROM the midpoint TO the end of the week: 1260 days. That is a precedent on HOW to use these numbers.

Next Daniel is told that to the end of the wonders will be 1290 days. Note carefully, it is another answer to the SAME QUESTION: how long to the END. There is not one hint that it is about a different starting point!

Therefore it is only human imagination.

 

[Douggg]

I disagree: the 7th seal allows the 70th week to begin, for the 70th week is what is written INSIDE THE BOOK.

The 70th week begins with the rider on the white horse, revealed when the first seal is removed from the scroll.