[MOVED] What is more important dogma or evangelism in a church?

RDKirk

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Exactly. Right doctrine matters more than packing them in.

What good is right doctrine if nobody is listening to it?

Let's presume the Philippian jailer remained a faithful member of the church of Philippi...but did he ever become any more saved than he was the first hour he had listened to Paul and Silas?
 
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timothyu

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You don't know that the person you consider your enemy won't end up in heaven.
No you don't but there is no need to stipulate as if it was a closed system. That ends up letting people think they are off the hook for not loving all including enemies as self, hence they feel free to participate in the division between man instead of between world of man and the Kingdom.
 
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RDKirk

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No you don't but there is no need to stipulate as if it was a closed system. That ends up letting people think they are off the hook for not loving all including enemies as self, hence they feel free to participate in the division between man instead of between world of man and the Kingdom.

I didn't stipulate it as though it were a closed system. I said, "Those who are saved unto heaven."

Nobody really knows if that woman over there or that man over here is saved unto heaven.

Do not forget to show hospitality to strangers, for by so doing some people have shown hospitality to angels without knowing it. -- Hebrews 11
 
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SkyWriting

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Nothing we achieve in this world will translate into heaven. Nobody will care if you were the wealthiest man of your time, because your wealth will be frittered away by your heirs. Nobody will care if you build the tallest building of your time, because someone else will build one taller and yours will be torn down.There is only one thing that translates into heaven: Your actions toward those who are saved unto heaven. Someone who can say in heaven, "I remember you...you told me about Jesus." Or "I remember you...you supported my mission." Or even "I remember you...you gave me a sandwich one day when I had nothing to eat."

Evidently not the case at all.

Proverbs 3:9-10
Honor the Lord with your wealth and with the firstfruits of all your produce; then your barns will be filled with plenty, and your vats will be bursting with wine.


Proverbs 13:22
A good man leaves an inheritance to his children's children, but the sinner's wealth is laid up for the righteous.

1 Timothy 5:8
But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Proverbs 8:18
Riches and honor are with me, enduring wealth and righteousness.

Luke 16:11
If then you have not been faithful in the unrighteous wealth, who will entrust to you the true riches?

Luke 14:28
For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it?

Proverbs 21:20
Precious treasure and oil are in a wise man's dwelling, but a foolish man devours it.

Proverbs 13:11
Wealth gained hastily will dwindle, but whoever gathers little by little will increase it.

Deuteronomy 28:11
And the Lord will make you abound in prosperity, in the fruit of your womb and in the fruit of your livestock and in the fruit of your ground, within the land that the Lord swore to your fathers to give you.

1 Samuel 2:7
The Lord makes poor and makes rich; he brings low and he exalts.

Proverbs 28:8
Whoever multiplies his wealth by interest and profit gathers it for him who is generous to the poor.

Proverbs 21:5
The plans of the diligent lead surely to abundance, but everyone who is hasty comes only to poverty.

Mark 12:31
The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

James 2:8
If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well.

Romans 15:2
Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, to build him up.

Galatians 5:14
For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
 
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RDKirk

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Evidently not the case at all.

Proverbs 3:9-10
Honor the Lord with your wealth and with the firstfruits of all your produce; then your barns will be filled with plenty, and your vats will be bursting with wine.


Proverbs 13:22
A good man leaves an inheritance to his children's children, but the sinner's wealth is laid up for the righteous.

1 Timothy 5:8
But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Proverbs 8:18
Riches and honor are with me, enduring wealth and righteousness.

Luke 16:11
If then you have not been faithful in the unrighteous wealth, who will entrust to you the true riches?

Luke 14:28
For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it?

Proverbs 21:20
Precious treasure and oil are in a wise man's dwelling, but a foolish man devours it.

Proverbs 13:11
Wealth gained hastily will dwindle, but whoever gathers little by little will increase it.

Deuteronomy 28:11
And the Lord will make you abound in prosperity, in the fruit of your womb and in the fruit of your livestock and in the fruit of your ground, within the land that the Lord swore to your fathers to give you.

1 Samuel 2:7
The Lord makes poor and makes rich; he brings low and he exalts.

Proverbs 28:8
Whoever multiplies his wealth by interest and profit gathers it for him who is generous to the poor.

Proverbs 21:5
The plans of the diligent lead surely to abundance, but everyone who is hasty comes only to poverty.

Mark 12:31
The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

James 2:8
If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well.

Romans 15:2
Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, to build him up.

Galatians 5:14
For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

I didn't see anything in all that either refuting or rebutting what I said.

I guess you didn't understand what I said, and I can't figure out what you think I said.
 
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Albion

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I dunno. Who is absolutely right, and how wrong is too wrong?
Well, I do think that it's not an either-or situation. It's not as though dogma is wrong and evangelism is all that matters. Or the opposite. But if we had to choose, which would we go for? I saw the question as a matter of personal opinion and something of a brainteaser, not a do-or-die black vs. white matter here. ;)


If one fully holds firmly to the Nicene and/or Apostle's to the Nicene and/or Apostle's Creed, how much does "proper understanding" of anything else really matter?

It may, but if you stipulate that Creeds are part of the question, you've already tilted towards the doctrine side of the controversy.
 
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SkyWriting

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I didn't see anything in all that either refuting or rebutting what I said.

God is concerned about all these things listed below.

17 For behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

Proverbs 3:9-10
Honor the Lord with your wealth and with the firstfruits of all your produce; then your barns will be filled with plenty, and your vats will be bursting with wine.

Proverbs 13:22
A good man leaves an inheritance to his children's children, but the sinner's wealth is laid up for the righteous.

1 Timothy 5:8
But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Proverbs 8:18
Riches and honor are with me, enduring wealth and righteousness.

Luke 16:11
If then you have not been faithful in the unrighteous wealth, who will entrust to you the true riches?

Luke 14:28
For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it?

Proverbs 21:20
Precious treasure and oil are in a wise man's dwelling, but a foolish man devours it.

Proverbs 13:11
Wealth gained hastily will dwindle, but whoever gathers little by little will increase it.

Deuteronomy 28:11
And the Lord will make you abound in prosperity, in the fruit of your womb and in the fruit of your livestock and in the fruit of your ground, within the land that the Lord swore to your fathers to give you.

1 Samuel 2:7
The Lord makes poor and makes rich; he brings low and he exalts.

Proverbs 28:8
Whoever multiplies his wealth by interest and profit gathers it for him who is generous to the poor.

Proverbs 21:5
The plans of the diligent lead surely to abundance, but everyone who is hasty comes only to poverty.

Mark 12:31
The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

James 2:8
If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well.

Romans 15:2
Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, to build him up.

Galatians 5:14
For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
 
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RDKirk

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God is concerned about all these things listed below.

17 For behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

Proverbs 3:9-10
Honor the Lord with your wealth and with the firstfruits of all your produce; then your barns will be filled with plenty, and your vats will be bursting with wine.

Proverbs 13:22
A good man leaves an inheritance to his children's children, but the sinner's wealth is laid up for the righteous.

1 Timothy 5:8
But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Proverbs 8:18
Riches and honor are with me, enduring wealth and righteousness.

Luke 16:11
If then you have not been faithful in the unrighteous wealth, who will entrust to you the true riches?

Luke 14:28
For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it?

Proverbs 21:20
Precious treasure and oil are in a wise man's dwelling, but a foolish man devours it.

Proverbs 13:11
Wealth gained hastily will dwindle, but whoever gathers little by little will increase it.

Deuteronomy 28:11
And the Lord will make you abound in prosperity, in the fruit of your womb and in the fruit of your livestock and in the fruit of your ground, within the land that the Lord swore to your fathers to give you.

1 Samuel 2:7
The Lord makes poor and makes rich; he brings low and he exalts.

Proverbs 28:8
Whoever multiplies his wealth by interest and profit gathers it for him who is generous to the poor.

Proverbs 21:5
The plans of the diligent lead surely to abundance, but everyone who is hasty comes only to poverty.

Mark 12:31
The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

James 2:8
If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well.

Romans 15:2
Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, to build him up.

Galatians 5:14
For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

What is your point relative to what I said?
 
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SkyWriting

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What is your point relative to what I said?
Nothing you said is correct, in any way.
Jesus talked about finances and money more than heaven.
Others stressed the importance of loving our neighbors, especially the unsaved.

RDKirk said:
Nothing we achieve in this world will translate into heaven. Nobody will care if you were the wealthiest man of your time, because your wealth will be frittered away by your heirs. Nobody will care if you build the tallest building of your time, because someone else will build one taller and yours will be torn down.There is only one thing that translates into heaven: Your actions toward those who are saved unto heaven. Someone who can say in heaven, "I remember you...you told me about Jesus." Or "I remember you...you supported my mission." Or even "I remember you...you gave me a sandwich one day when I had nothing to eat."

In contrast to:
The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.
 
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RDKirk

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Nothing you said is correct, in any way.
Jesus talked about finances and money more than heaven.

I said (paraphrasing Ecclesiastes):

Nothing we achieve in this world will translate into heaven. Nobody will care if you were the wealthiest man of your time, because your wealth will be frittered away by your heirs. Nobody will care if you build the tallest building of your time, because someone else will build one taller and yours will be torn down.

Jesus said:

Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal. But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal. Matthew 6

Jesus and I (and Ecclesiastes) are not in dispute.

Others stressed the importance of loving our neighbors, especially the unsaved.

As I pointed out, we don't know who will ultimately be saved, and I also quoted:

Do not forget to show hospitality to strangers, for by so doing some people have shown hospitality to angels without knowing it. -- Hebrews 11

So that would mean we have to show hospitality to everyone. I don't know why you don't seem to understand that.

But if our treasure is to be laid up in heaven, and because it is true that nothing from this world will translate to heaven except those who are saved, then those who are ultimately saved will be the only treasure from this world into heaven.

Yes, we show hospitality to all because that is our command, but the lasting treasure is only that which is in heaven. Everything else is vapor.
 
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SkyWriting

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Yes, we show hospitality to all because that is our command, but the lasting treasure is only that which is in heaven. Everything else is vapor.

Nobody mentioned treasures. That wasn't the topic.
 
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createdtoworship

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whats really important 586.png

Ok guys what is more important fighting over your 'mode' of baptism? Or getting people in to church first, then correcting and fine tuning it later. Dogma more important than evangelism? Some people believe you must baptize in the 'name of Jesus,' others believe you should baptize in the "name of the father, the son, and the holy spirit (trinity)" Other's believe you must be immersed or it don't work others believe it only works by sprinkling. Others believe in infant baptism, others believe salvation requires baptism, and yet others believe baptism is just an outward confession of faith, and is as such a church ordinance. So again do you fight with people on baptism modes? Or do you say....Hey brother, I know you disagree with my form of baptism, but hey you can still come hear the word of God today if you want, we have an awesome local christian band playing, lets break bread together and enjoy Christ in unity (can we just agree to disagree and unite in what we have in common?)
 
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charsan

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Correct doctrine above all. Everyone is invited to our Church and we will welcome them with open arms but in order to be a member they will be given a small book to explain what we believe and how we link to the real NT Church through Apostolic secession. I know because that is what happened before I was confirmed. Unlike some our beliefs are important not relative and who cares what you believe. That is the big difference between Traditional Churches and evangelicals, Traditional Christians welcome people warmly but we all understand to prevent heresy right doctrine is important but evangelicals while welcoming people warmly do not care abut correct orthodox belief and much heresy is to be found therein.
 
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createdtoworship

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but evangelicals while welcoming people warmly do not care abut correct orthodox belief and much heresy is to be found therein.
Not the circles I run in. If anything their doctrine is as perfect as you can get. But I think the fire of God is missing. They care more about doctrine than about reaching the lost.
 
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Amittai

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... Do we have doctrine? Yes! probably the most perfect doctrine I have ever seen, but they lost something in the process. They lost the love and grace to dwell with other types of christians. We even have the reputation as being prideful and arrogant in the city we live in. Who cares if you have doctrine, if you don't have love.....your a sounding brass. 1 corinthians 13:1 Now I am not saying don't have doctrine. I among all believe in the importance of doctrine. ... Buy that extra screen, buy the bigger amplifyer. Get your drummer a new drum set. Focus on outreach, don't be comfortable with who is there now, seek out the lost.

- something will get lost including when you have the false doctrine of the false dichotomy you have, plus the omitting of huge areas of moral growth

- ask God since lockdown what He thinks of amplifiers Amos 5:24 "stop your din"

- like the Pharisees your establishment are scouring land & sea to make your recruits as shallow. A true God wouldn't be in a hurry for that

- you aren't comfortable with each other because you aren't comfortable with your own selves. This is not what you yourself individually planned for yourself, but your cynical superiors like to see it happening to you because they are denying it in themselves

- it is also the places that aren't called "dry" that are the form without the power

- they are misusing you for your apparent enthusiasm and don't respect your physical frailty (I am empathetic towards you because I also know the meaning in physical frailty)

- those of us in recovery know the meaning of step 11, to eschew excitement

- stop looking to those people for brownie points (people pleasing)

- there is a huge amount of background for you to catch up on, in all sections of CF

- slow down enough to give logic a better chance

- the people that crushed you are going to be asked why they were opposed to the maturing and interrelating of individuals in times of increasing adversity
 
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Amittai

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"Packing the people in" doesn't really matter if what they find when they get there isn't correct, right?

- 28 years too late
- and after that 5 years too late
- and after that 2 years too late

Did we just mislead ourselves? Or did the misleaders do any of the misleading?

Charlatan attitude is to twist buyer beware. If we're interested enough to research His ways, it turns out God has an angle on false measures as well!
 
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