Torah and Grace. Everyone Has A Role.

[HARK!]

The law of Christ is above the law of Moses.

Messiah was obedient to his father's Torah unto death. Messiah's law is our father's law.

YHWH gave his law to Moses. Moses' law is YHWH's law.

Yahshua was obedient unto death to the law that YHWH gave to Moses.

Therefore Yahshua's law is the law of Moses.

 

[StephenDiscipleofYHWH]

I respect your opinion. In fact I used to share your view with respect to the old and new covenants. However when I began to study this subject for myself instead of just accepting what I was taught, I began to notice discrepancies.
You might want to reread Matt 5:14 as it states that not one jot or tittle will be till all is fulfilled - refers to heaven and earth passing away.
"For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

Since heaven and earth still exists, the law in its entirety still exists Given this, the new covenant and the old covenant exist simultaneously. The primary difference is that the old covenant has now been made obsolete by the atonement. However what most fail to distinguish is that obsolete does not mean abolish but means out of date. For example, I can purchase a brand new car this year but by next year 2021, it will be made out of date by a newer model; however my car still exists and I still use it.
Heb 8:13 illustrates this.
In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. ESV
This verse is a peculiar one because the Greek word for obsolete is rendered in the perfect tense in the first sentence and in the present tense in the second sentence. The Greek perfect tense indicates a completed action but the results of that action continue on. The Greek present tense indicates continuous action. Thus in this verse the old covenant has been made obsolete (completed action) but the results of that action continue on till this day. That is why the second sentence in this verse states: is becoming obsolete and growing old.

The law has been made obsolete by Christ's atonement (a completed action with continuing results) but its effects are still being felt today as it is becoming obsolete (present tense) and growing old (present tense). Thus the law is ready to vanish away but has not - until such time that heaven and earth pass away.

I have heard this argument also brother, but what should noted in Matt 5:18 is that the subject is the Law(the whole law) and that the Lord is saying till heaven and earth pass in the same way he did here:
Luke 16:17
And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

He is saying that it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away for one one jot or tittle of the Law to be fulfilled/completed/finished without the rest. He is saying that either every law written by the Hand of Moses will be finished by him(Christ) or none of it will.

The Old Covenant is ready to vanish away Brother because it is only kept by certain sects of people until the end of the world, once this world ends and a New one is created only the Law of Christ and the Ten commandments will be kept. No other Law. I advise brother that you read the whole NT and see what God has said through his Apostles carefully examining every word in its context.

God bless you brother

 

[Oldmantook]

What happened to the prophets? Do they have nothing to say to us? You skip over them completely.

The books of the prophets take up a large part of the Old Testament. Surely there is something to be learned from them.

The Torah puts restrictions on what can be eaten and what cannot be eaten. I don't believe that the prophets ever refer to food laws. In that sense the prophets anticipate the teaching of Jesus that it is what comes out of a man, or woman, deeds and actions, and not what is eaten that is of paramount importance.

The problem with your argument as I see it is that the dietary law specifying what is clean and what is unclean is not restricted to Moses alone. If you recall, Noah who preceded Moses distinguished between pairs of clean and unclean animals that he was to put on the ark per Gen 7:2.

And after Jesus' resurrection, we find Peter whom Jesus himself discipled, still eating only clean foods. “By no means, Lord for I have never eaten anything that is unclean” (Acts 10:14). Peter's confusion is cleared up later in Acts 10:27-28 "And as he talked with him, he went in and found many persons gathered. 28 And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean."
Thus the food laws have not been abrogated and still apply today.

Finally, your reference to Jesus' statement about what comes out of a man defiles him in Mark 7:15 is not related to the food laws at all. Note that Jesus was not addressing the dietary law as contained in the written law. Instead he was condemning the ORAL LAW of the Pharisees in Mark 7:3 which they clinged to out of their tradition. V.7 makes clear the focus of Jesus' condemnation: in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men. Jesus was condemning the oral tradition of the Pharisees which are the commandments of men - not the commandments of God.

 

[Oldmantook]

I have heard this argument also brother, but what should noted in Matt 5:18 is that the subject is the Law(the whole law) and that the Lord is saying till heaven and earth pass in the same way he did here:
Luke 16:17
And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

He is saying that it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away for one one jot or tittle of the Law to be fulfilled/completed/finished without the rest. He is saying that either every law written by the Hand of Moses will be finished by him(Christ) or none of it will.

The Old Covenant is ready to vanish away Brother because it is only kept by certain sects of people until the end of the world, once this world ends and a New one is created only the Law of Christ and the Ten commandments will be kept. No other Law. I advise brother that you read the whole NT and see what God has said through his Apostles carefully examining every word in its context.

God bless you brother

Thanks for your reply. We can always agree to disagree. The whole law still exists. The whole law as contained in the old covenant is growing old and is ready to pass away. The 10 Commandments are part of the law but the scriptures state that not one jot or tittle of the law will vanish until heaven and earth pass away. Thus, all of the law including the 10 Commandments are still applicable today.
A simple question to ask is why did Peter continue to observe the dietary law after the resurrection? Why did Paul continue to observe the Sabbath and feast days? The actions of the Apostles confirm what they wrote in the Word.

 

[StephenDiscipleofYHWH]

Thanks for your reply. We can always agree to disagree. The whole law still exists. The whole law as contained in the old covenant is growing old and is ready to pass away. The 10 Commandments are part of the law but the scriptures state that not one jot or tittle of the law will vanish until heaven and earth pass away. Thus, all of the law including the 10 Commandments are still applicable today.
A simple question to ask is why did Peter continue to observe the dietary law after the resurrection? Why did Paul continue to observe the Sabbath and feast days? The actions of the Apostles confirm what they wrote in the Word.

The Ten commandments were not Part of the Mosaic law, they have always existed. Their separation from the Mosaic law is clearly shown in that the Ten were placed inside the Ark signifying they are eternal while the Mosaic law was only place on the side of the Ark signifying it was only for time. Only the Old covenant(book of the Covenant/handwriting of ordinances) was finished as it was every law written by Moses's hand.

Peter was sent to those of the Circumcision and continued in many of their customs, even having to be corrected by the Lord for it(Acts 10) and by Paul(Galatians 2). It seems that not everything was revealed to the Apostles right away, but when it was revealed it was very clear.
Paul observed the Sabbath because that is part of God's eternal moral Law and will never change. He also was about to Sacrifice animals, but we see later on that he was corrected by the Lord and shown that we have no need to Sacrifice any animal since Christ was the only Sacrifice that we will ever need. Paul said that the Handwriting of ordinances was finished and that included the feasts and feast day sabbaths(Colossians 2).

We find in God's word that the Apostles were consistently shown the truth of the NT Law and that the whole counsel of God was in the end fully made known to them.

 

[Oldmantook]

The Ten commandments were not Part of the Mosaic law, they have always existed. Their separation from the Mosaic law is clearly shown in that the Ten were placed inside the Ark signifying they are eternal while the Mosaic law was only place on the side of the Ark signifying it was only for time. Only the Old covenant(book of the Covenant/handwriting of ordinances) was finished as it was every law written by Moses's hand.

So what about clean and unclean? Clearly, the difference was from at least the time of Noah. What about sacrifices? Abel and Cain were obviously told what were proper sacrifices. One brother obeyed and the other didn't. One cannot break up and separate the law into convenient pieces as you and I have cited the same scripture as no jot or tittle of the law shall vanish until heaven and earth have passed away. Heaven and earth are still here, so the Law in its entirely still exists.

Peter was sent to those of the Circumcision and continued in many of their customs, even having to be corrected by the Lord for it(Acts 10) and by Paul(Galatians 2). It seems that not everything was revealed to the Apostles right away, but when it was revealed it was very clear.
Paul observed the Sabbath because that is part of God's eternal moral Law and will never change. He also was about to Sacrifice animals, but we see later on that he was corrected by the Lord and shown that we have no need to Sacrifice any animal since Christ was the only Sacrifice that we will ever need. Paul said that the Handwriting of ordinances was finished and that included the feasts and feast day sabbaths(Colossians 2).

When scripture gives us the reason, it is folly to make up a reason of our own. Peter himself gave the reason for his dream about clean and unclean being applied to people/gentiles - not food. There is no record in the entirety of the NT that Peter or the rest of the apostles changed their dietary habits.

The Sabbath is indeed eternal so why do most churches worship on Sunday? For the record the Roman Catholic Church substituted Sunday as the "Lord's Day" in effect making it as the Sabbath day without having any scriptural warrant whatsoever. Protestants merrily follow along giving no thought to it at all
- despite the Sabbath day being eternal.

If Paul thought the ordinances were finished, why did he continue to observe the Passover? Read Col 2 carefully again. V.16 states let no one (outside the body of Christ) judge you. The judgment of outsiders here pertains to the fact that the Galatian believers are in fact observing food/drink, feast days, new moons and Sabbaths which are commanded by God. How do we know this? Because the very next verse states that they ARE a shadow of things to come - NOT - WERE a shadow of things to come. If the Galatians were not observing these commandments of God, then the utilization of the past tense "were" would have been appropriate but the fact that they "are" still a shadow of things to come dictates that the Galatians were in the habit of still practicing God's ordained meeting times - as a shadow of things yet to come.

We find in God's word that the Apostles were consistently shown the truth of the NT Law and that the whole counsel of God was in the end fully made known to them.

To the very end of the scriptures, we see no record at all of the Apostles ever departing from the law based upon their actions. If you have found one, please cite it for me.

 

[GospelS]

The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Romans 14:22

There are times we need to follow this rather than argue/oppose each other all the time. This is what this OP is about. God is able to do His work through all His word: Torah, prophets, and gospels. He knows who needs what. We need to humble ourselves, trust Him, and learn to be silent at times with that understanding.

 

[solid_core]

The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Romans 14:22

The context of the verse is about eating meat and about drinking alcohol, not about the Old Covenant vs the New Covenant.

The verse you quote is about faith that you are allowed to eat and drink and smoke or whatever, but you should keep it quite. Its not about theological issues.

 

[GospelS]

The context of the verse is about eating meat and about drinking alcohol, not about the Old Covenant vs the New Covenant.

The verse you quote is about faith that you are allowed to eat and drink and smoke or whatever, but you should keep it quite. Its not about theological issues.

Eating meat and observing days for some people comes from Torah.

For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. Romans 14:15

So can we grieve our brothers in other matters?

 

[solid_core]

Eating meat and observing days for some people comes from Torah.

For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. Romans 14:15

So can we grieve our brothers in other matters?

Yes, we can grieve our brothers but telling them the truth about their false beliefs.

Paul was doing it all the time, read for example the Letter to Galatians. But he never criticized somebody for eating meat, its not an important issue.

 

[GospelS]

Yes, we can grieve our brothers but telling them the truth about their false beliefs.

Paul was doing it all the time, read for example the Letter to Galatians. But he never criticized somebody for eating meat, its not an important issue.

We need to understand the importance of Torah as much as we need to understand importance of the gospel of grace. There are great insights about Christ in Torah which many of us are lacking. Some of us need that knowledge to see those aspects of God that He revealed in His word so we can better understand the gospel of grace. So everyone is reaching out to different audiences. The 144000 from each tribe that will be sealed in the coming age are different from the Paul’s audience. Paul is mostly addressing new believers. God knows what He needs from each one before His coming and He will prepare us accordingly. So we don’t need to oppose each other if we are already in Christ. God gave a different task to each believer and let each share their gift in peace and understanding and trust in the Holy Spirit that is leading each believer.

 

[solid_core]

We need to understand the importance of Torah as much as we need to understand importance of the gospel of grace. There are great insights about Christ in Torah which many of us are lacking. Some of us need that knowledge to see those aspects of God that He revealed in His word so we can better understand the gospel of grace. So everyone is reaching out to different audiences. The 144000 from each tribe that will be sealed in the coming age are different from the Paul’s audience. Paul is mostly addressing new believers. God knows what He needs from each one before His coming and He will prepare us accordingly. So we don’t need to oppose each other if we are already in Christ. God gave a different task to each believer and let each share their gift in peace and understanding and trust in the Holy Spirit that is leading each believer.

The New Covenant does not include Torah. You are mixing two different covenants together.

1. The Old Covenant was given to Israel only, not to other nations.

2. The Old Covenant ended even for Israel in the 1st century. The New Covenant is given to both Israel and all other nations from that time for ever.

 

[GospelS]

The New Covenant does not include Torah. You are mixing two different covenants together.

1. The Old Covenant was given to Israel only, not to other nations.

2. The Old Covenant ended even for Israel in the 1st century. The New Covenant is given to both Israel and all other nations from that time for ever.

Yes, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t study Torah or not listen to anyone sharing insight about it. Some people want to honor God by adopting certain lifestyle given in Torah. It is between God and that person. If anyone is in Christ and led by the Spirit, we have to honor the message shared by other believer in Christ but no need to oppose them if they doesn’t want to follow it because someone else might need that message.

 

[solid_core]

Yes, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t study Torah or not listen to anyone sharing insight about it. Some people want to honor God by adopting certain lifestyle given in Torah. It is between God and that person. If anyone is in Christ and led by the Spirit, we have to honor the message shared by other believer in Christ but no need to oppose them if they doesn’t want to follow it because someone else might need that message.

If somebody wants to study something that is not for us, then thats their decision. But this is public forum so we can talk about it and about its implications.

Also, most of "torah people" are trying to teach its still bounding for us. And this is something we must stand against firmly and do not let them take away our new covenants's principles and freedoms we have in Christ.

 

[GospelS]

If somebody wants to study something that is not for us, then thats their decision. But this is public forum so we can talk about it and about its implications.

Also, most of "torah people" are trying to teach its still bounding for us. And this is something we must stand against firmly and do not let them take away our new covenants's principles.

No one in Christ, led by the Holy Spirit, will bound another to Torah. They are concerned that some might get blinded by grace, grace, and grace of the gospels. So they are trying to share the knowledge and importance of God’s commandments. Debate is okay but it grieves my spirit to watch born again believers in Christ constantly opposing each other regarding these concepts instead of honoring each other whom God has already welcomed.

 

[solid_core]

it grieves my spirit to watch born again believers in Christ constantly opposing each other regarding these concepts instead of honoring each other whom God has already welcomed.

A constant opposition is understandable in a public, international platform that allows people of all possible views and opinions to come together and discuss (well, there is some censorship though, even on this site).

 

[GospelS]

A constant opposition is understandable in a public, international platform that allows people of all possible views and opinions to come together and discuss (well, there is some censorship though, even on this site).

Yes, I understand yet I’m trying to inspire and encourage some peace and love and unity amidst all that, in a little possible way that I can.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The New Covenant does not include Torah. You are mixing two different covenants together.

1. The Old Covenant was given to Israel only, not to other nations.

2. The Old Covenant ended even for Israel in the 1st century. The New Covenant is given to both Israel and all other nations from that time for ever.

How can you even say that?

 

[solid_core]

How can you even say that?

Its a common Christianity, not sure why you are surprised. Nothing extraordinary about it.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Its a common Christianity, not sure why you are surprised. Nothing extraordinary about it.

Does not mean it is correct. Yeshua taught Torah. Love God and your neighbor is Torah. Also, what does it say regarding the New Covenant in the TaNaKh?