Amillennialism Safe House

[yeshuaslavejeff]

......

 

[Christian Gedge]

Quoting Fr. Richard Rohr:
The One Big Pattern
Wednesday, April 16, 2014

I believe that the Mystery of the Cross is saying that the pattern of transformation unto God, the pattern that connects, the life that God offers us is always death transformed. The only pattern is the pattern of death and resurrection. We submit to it with trust because Jesus did.

Augustine called this metamorphosis, this transformative pattern that is in all things, the Paschal Mystery. Catholics proclaim it as “the Mystery of Faith” at the center of every Mass: “Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.” Death and life are two sides of one coin, and you cannot have one without the other. ~ Richard Rohr's Meditation: The One Big Pattern

A bit deep for my simple evangelical brain.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

..........

 

[mkgal1]

A bit deep for my simple evangelical brain.

From the content I've read of yours, CG, I can't consider your brain "simple". Maybe just a different way of thinking Reading or listening to RR is an exercise for me (mental and spiritual).

 

[mkgal1]

What then turned you to believe amil ? (apparently something did)

The contradictions with Scripture are not that deep, I think.

This thread is a "safe house", Jeff, for those that are of the amillennial belief.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Christian Gedge said: ↑
The ‘Beast’ rising from the sea of nations is the aggregation of world power into empires – the end result of secular human government, independent of, and antagonistic to God.
The ‘Beast’ rising from the earth, is religious power arising from human wisdom, and serving the secular power (1st beast) by deceiving people into worshiping it.

Hello CG. Excellent! That is actually how I view it.......like minds..........

A favorite commentator of mine, Preston Eby, has extensive 11 part study on the 2 beast.
[I made a thread on it, but have been involved with too many other threads to continue it.]
He seems to say the Beast from the Sea is a Gentile government based system, perhaps even consisting of 10 of the Hebrews tribes of Israel. 1 century Rome and the Gentile empires around it come to mind.

The wild Beasts from the Sea and from the Land

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/tablecontents.htm

Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series
Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series
Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series
Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series
Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series

The wild Beast Out of the Sea

Revelation 13:
1 And I was standing on the sand of the sea, and I saw a wild-beast ascending out of the sea having 10 horns and 7 heads
and upon the horns of it, ten diadems and upon the heads of it names of blasphemy.

I would draw your attention to the fact that the expression “I…saw a beast rise up out of the sea” is literally in the Greek, “I saw a wild beast ascending out of the sea.” My friend Jonathan Mitchell, in his splendid expanded and amplified translation of the New Testament correctly renders the expression, “…and then I saw a little animal (or beast) progressively climbing up (or repeatedly ascending) from out of the midst of the sea.” John did not say, “I saw a beast ascend,” as a limited, one-time event, but ascending — denoting a continuous action. It is ongoing. It is constantly being fulfilled. By way of illustration, let us suppose I am talking with my wife on my cell phone while standing in front of Niagara Falls. I say to Lorain, “I see the water flowing over Niagara Falls — it is awesome!” Now, I would not mean by that description that the only time water flows over Niagara Falls is at the precise moment I happen to be there. By no means! I am simply describing an on-going action — the water has been flowing for eons, is now flowing, and shall continue to flow. But for one brief moment in time I stood transfixed before a constant, unceasing scene. That, my beloved, is exactly the idea John describes when he says, “I saw a beast ascending out of the sea.” It cannot be bound by, nor does it predict or specify, any actual historical or future event. Instead, the beast is ascending, he is always ascending out of the sea of human corruption. Why are so many human organizations, institutions, and governments corrupt? Think about it! There is your answer. The world system of man — government, economics, commerce, military, education, science, art, entertainment, medicine, religion — these and many more are at all times and in all places arising out of the mind, imagination, heart, and will of the natural man. It never ceases! The oppressive world system pervades every area of human activity. (Jonathan Mitchell’s translation of the New Testament may be ordered online from Amazon.com. Go to Amazon.com and type in the New Testament by Jonathan Mitchell, or you can visit www.jonathanmitchellnewtestament.com to read sample passages, and then order from Amazon via that web site).

The “end time” teachers want you to believe that this beast is a specific world government or world ruler who will suddenly emerge at some future date, take over a large portion of the world for seven years, and fight against God. By focusing attention on a future world empire controlled by some brilliant mad-man, who inscribes an actual number on the hapless citizens of the world, they distract the Lord’s people from the present reality which is lived out in the experience of each of us. And while Christians are busy chasing their fantasies of dreadful world events yet to come, the wild beast is busy wreaking havoc in the daily lives of untold millions of believers. John tells us that “the whole world was astonished and followed the beast” (Rev. 13:3). Truly we can all agree with this inspired statement when we see by the spirit that this wild beast represents the carnal, humanistic, deceived, corrupt, and evil world system of man that stands in stark contrast to the glorious, golden City of God!
===================================
BEAST OUT OF THE LAND

Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series
Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series
Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series
Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series
Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series
Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series

The Land beast appears to resemble the corrupt Judean OC Temple system. They were whoring with Rome.

Jhn 19:12
From then on Pilate sought to release Him, but the Jews cried out, saying, “If you let this Man go, you are not Caesar's friend. Whoever makes himself a king speaks against Caesar.”
Jhn 19:15
But they cried out, “Away with Him, away with Him! Crucify Him!” Pilate said to them, “Shall I crucify your King?”
The chief priests answered, “We have no king but Caesar!”
===================

Revelation 13:11 And I saw another wild Beast ascending out of the land,
and it had two horns like a lambkin and it spoke as a Dragon.

We have discussed the first of two beasts, the beast which came up out of the sea. By the spirit of truth we understand that that beast which combined within itself the appearance of a leopard, a bear, and a lion, which had seven heads and ten horns, is the symbol of the BESTIAL WORLD SYSTEM OF MAN.

Now we are presented with a second beast! And to prevent any misunderstanding at all, let me say from the outset that there is a definite relation between the first beast and the second beast. The full picture is just this. The second beast rises up out of the earth.
He is less formidable in appearance. First of all, his origin is not in the depths of the stormy sea, but from the more quiet and more stable earth. He strikes you as looking like a lamb, for he has two horns like lambs’ horns, yet when he speaks, he sounds like the awful red dragon. And there is a very definite connection between these two beasts. Repeatedly this is indicated in the description John gives us. He exercises all his authority in the sight of, in the presence of, and even in behalf of the first beast. All that he does he does both in the presence of, and with the approval of, the first beast. Therefore, one of the functions of this second beast is to collaborate with and augment the agenda of the first beast. And this soon becomes apparent! For the second beast causes the inhabitants of the earth-realm to wonder after the first beast, to admire him, and to pay respect and homage (worship) to him. This second beast inspires men to construct an image of the first beast, in order to pay homage to the first beast through his image. The second beast causes all the admirers of the first beast to receive a mark which distinguishes them from those who refuse to worship this beast and his image, in order that they may be killed.

When John spoke of certain people which were of the spirit of antichrist, he did not refer to all opposers of Christ. Instead, he referred to a certain class of people — apostates who were teaching things contrary to the reality that is in Christ. These were not openly against Christ, they were professing believers and apparent ministers of Christ! These were no longer in accord with those who abode in the truth as it is in Jesus, for John says of these antichrists, “…even now there are many antichrists… they went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be manifest that they were not all of us” (I Jn. 2:18-19). Therefore we find that John’s use of the word “antichrist” signifies not merely one who opposes Christ, but one who sets himself up in the place of Christ, appropriating some of the attributes of Christ, but substituting error in the place of truth, and form in the place of reality. Anything that is placed instead of Christ is literally antichrist. Have we not embraced and practiced a lot of religious attitudes, ideas, beliefs, doctrines, rituals, ceremonies, sacraments, ordinances, traditions, forms, means, and methods which have TAKEN THE PLACE OF TRUTH AND REALITY in our lives! These certainly contained bits and shades of truth and life, but they were NOT THE LIVING REALITY OF CHRIST WITHIN AT ALL! They were shadow, but not substance; form, but not essence; works, but not power. Any little form of substitution that detracts from His indwelling life is indeed ANTICHRIST!

 

[Josh66]

Welcome to Amillennial Safe House. Please let us know if you are Amillennial regardless of end-time interpretation. And what first topics do you like to discuss?

 

[Josh66]

My take on Revelation 13 has something more of a historisist flavor. please read the enclosed PDF for a synopsis of my view.

 

[Josh66]

let me try that again

 

[Christian Gedge]

My take on Revelation 13 has something more of a historisist flavor. please read the enclosed PDF for a synopsis of my view.

I think the basic premise of Historicism is fine, but your dividing of Rome into 2 separate beasts is unnecessary. Rome was already depicted as having 2 legs.

 

[Josh66]

I think the basic premise of Historicism is fine, but your dividing of Rome into 2 separate beasts is unnecessary. Rome was already depicted as having 2 legs.

Well, I think the two legs of Daniel is a reference to the fact that the Roman empire degenerated from being all Latin to Latin and Greek halves in the later Empire. Dividing the Imperial period into two kingdoms is foreshadowed in Daniel by the legs of iron (a strong empire) transitioning to feet of iron mixed with clay (a brittle empire that eventually broke up).

 

[Christian Gedge]

I won’t take my thoughts any further, because it will derail the thread. Just to say I like the combination amill/historicist.

 

[now faith]

Hello and Bless God for my being here.

I do not often ponder what God has in store for us upon His return.
This topic is one that I have never reconciled.
My Heart goes Here:

Daniel 12: 1. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. 10. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. 13. But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

1 Thessalonians 4: 13. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

I will study here as much as time allows for.
God Bless

 

[Christian Gedge]

What is the Amillennial view of the ‘Times of the Gentiles’?

Im Amil and have my opinions about it, but its a subject that has a lot of variations. Whats your take?

“There will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” (Luke 21:23-24)​

I am looking for precise start and finish dates. What events mark those dates? Also, a brief summary of the Amillennial thinking concerning this prophecy would be useful.

Thanks

 

[now faith]

This is opinion only,because no Man knows when Christ will return.
The seven Spirits of God mentioned when John is taken up,some equate this to the seven Churches mentioned in Revelation 1 through 4.
It is thought the Churches represent time dispensation.
If I took a shot at it,I would say we are in the Laodicean age now.
This would be the last dispensation for the Church age.
The next event John is taken to the throne of God.
Revelation 5: 6. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 7. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. 8. And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10. And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. 11. And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; 12. Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. 13. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. 14. And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

 

[now faith]

As I study Revelation I believe it is written in a Spiritual context, based on the events that have and will transpire in the Heavenly kingdom.

Daniel I believe is the prophetic word written from those who observe the end of days from a earthly stand point.

Daniel 12: 1. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

These are the same as mentioned in Revelation chapter 5
right after they arrive to the throne of God.

 

[RJ Spencer]

What is the Amillennial view of the ‘Times of the Gentiles’?

Im Amil and have my opinions about it, but its a subject that has a lot of variations. Whats your take?

“There will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” (Luke 21:23-24)​

I am looking for precise start and finish dates. What events mark those dates? Also, a brief summary of the Amillennial thinking concerning this prophecy would be useful.

Thanks

Amillennial preterists would view this as the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Others, those that believe all of ethnic Israel will be saved, would say that this is symbolic of the entire Church age.

I am a very partial preterist and I would agree with their take on this text. When answering this we must ask; Who is "this people" that Jesus mentions? Is it Christians living in that age, Christians in general, ethnic Israel living in that time , or Israel in general? I think it is pretty clear that Jesus is referring to Israel living in His time. The question that the Apostles asked was a two part question (see Matthew 24).
Part 1. When will these things (the stones of the temple being thrown down) be? Answer; 70AD
Part 2. What will be the sign of your coming? Answer; Signs in the sun, moon, and stars, Roaring of the sea and waves, and finally they will see the Son of Man returning with power and glory.

 

[RJ Spencer]

I am an Optimistic Amillennial, this basically means that I'm a post Millennial that rejects the golden age. I believe that the Gospel will be spread throughout the world and that things will gradually get better and better until Christ's return. I do believe that just before His return we will see a great apostasy take place though.
In other words, the Gospel will advance and people will outwardly/externally become part of the covenant. But eventually the great apostasy will take place and it will become obvious that they were never internally a part of Christ. Then Christ will return and separate HIS Sheep from the goats. Upon His return the Christians will meet Him in the air and finish His decent with Him, while He slaughters everyone left upon the earth "for who can stand at His coming?" - Malachi 3:2 and Amos 5:18.

 

[Christian Gedge]

Amillennial preterists would view this as the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Others, those that believe all of ethnic Israel will be saved, would say that this is symbolic of the entire Church age.

I am a very partial preterist and I would agree with their take on this text.

Kim Riddlebarger is the latter. I am a Riddlebargerite, assuming, of course, that "all" mean those who are grafted back into the olive tree.

The question that the Apostles asked was a two part question (see Matthew 24).
Part 1. When will these things (the stones of the temple being thrown down) be? Answer; 70AD
Part 2. What will be the sign of your coming? Answer; Signs in the sun, moon, and stars, Roaring of the sea and waves, and finally they will see the Son of Man returning with power and glory.

So, the 'times of the Gentiles' conclude at the end of the church age? If thats what you are saying, then I would refine it to just before a last-day revival of the Jews to Christ.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Kim Riddlebarger is the latter. I am a Riddlebargerite, assuming, of course, that "all" mean those who are grafted back into the olive tree.


So, the 'times of the Gentiles' conclude at the end of the church age? If thats what you are saying, then I would refine it to just before a last-day revival of the Jews to Christ.

Riddlebarger is excellent. I am an Idealist Amil.