Beware of Pre-Tribbers Doomsday Hype

[civilwarbuff]

These verses refer to the second coming of Jesus after the tribulation (seven last plagues).

What makes you think that? Why would Jesus abandon His Church and leave them to the 'mercies' of the evil one?

 

[Jipsah]

Tell me... What are you going to do for the 7 years where, since I believe you won't take the mark, what are you going to do for seven years when you cannot buy, sell, travel, work, feed yourself or your love ones, protect yourself or your family?

You mean when we won't be able to buy and sell unless we can prove that we burned incense in worship of the emperor, or swear by his name, or sacrifice to the gods, like that? Like what John the Revelator told his contemporaries to whom he sent the Revelation was about to happen? "oh, he didn't mean them, he meant us." Right? Nope, he meant them, the people he was writing to. "the time is at hand", right? Not in a couple of thousand years, but at hand. "Oh, that's God's time." Baloney. he wasn't writing it to God, he was writing it to his brethren. The people who he assumed knew enough to count the number of the beast, and know what man it represented. The "rapture" folks are still waiting for events that happened millennia ago. They're still waiting for temple sacrifice to cease, although it did just that in the 1st century.

The Lord will return, when it is His good pleasure to "judge the quick and the dead". THere's an end of the matter.

 

[Jipsah]

What makes you think that? Why would Jesus abandon His Church and leave them to the 'mercies' of the evil one?

Ask your North Korean brethren about the mercies of Jong-Un Kim. I reckon he's evil enough to suit me. Let's face it, Western Christians think "persecution" means people saying mean things about us. But out there in the Cold Cruel, Christians are dying, often horribly, for the Faith. In North Korea, in China, in India, in the Islamic world, and others, the cross around your neck can get you tortured and killed. But no, God wouldn't allow that to happen to us, oh no no no no!

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

These verses refer to the second coming of Jesus after the tribulation (seven last plagues).

When this happens the righteous that are alive and the resurrected righteous will go up to Jesus in the cloud and evil multitude will be put to death by the glory of the Lord. No one left on this planet except satan and his evil angels.

We shall see.

 

[Jipsah]

I understand. Peter even told that in the end there will be scoffers saying 'Where is the promise of His coming?' and ' All things are like they were from the beginning.' Your response isn't unexpected.

That's the standard put-down for those who would dare to disagree with any nonsensical doctrine at all. "Oh, you're just a scoffer!" Comes right before one starts talking about casting pearls before swine. Pretty nasty, in point of fact. Nemmind that the "Rapture" doctrine, with its "almost return before the real return"of our Lord has no explicit basis in Scripture, and is strictly a product of an arbitrary cobbling together of essentially unrelated verses with the goal of supporting a doctrine that is assumed a priori. and that roughly all those who are typically accused of being "scoffers" very explicitly confess "the promise of His coming" as an article of faith. So the accusation is both inaccurate and libelous, the only excuse for the accuser being ignorance of that fact.

 

[JacksBratt]

In John ch. 14 Jesus promises His disciples that they have a place with Him in the Father's house. Is that promise not for Peter, James, John et al? Did not the Lord promise them that they would be where He is? Jesus' promise is that where He is we shall be also. That promise was made to the Apostles, and through them also to all of us. Which is why we can trust that we will be with the Lord.

But no mention is made whatsoever of Jesus taking Christians into heaven to escape tribulation. Again, that is what I was asking for. Not Scripture that says we will be with the Lord, of course we will be with the Lord. Not Scripture that says the dead will rise, because of course the dead will rise.

Further, in the Revelation, the promise is made to Christians living in the ancient city of Philadelphia. Or are we going to pretend it's not? When the text very explicitly says, "to the angel of the church in Philadelphia" are we going to pretend it doesn't say that?



Why would you believe the Holy Spirit will be removed? Even if one assumes the whole Left Behind narrative as true, does God just simply abandon all during the tribulation? Are there not people who belong to God? Does it not refer to those who have been sealed?

So Christ WILL leave some and forsake some. He will forsake and abandon all left behind--even those who would come to believe in Him during that time?

How on earth does any of that square with the Gospel?

-CryptoLutheran

Yes, we will all go to be with our Savior. I, however, believe that eternity will not be in heaven. It will be on a new earth and heaven will descend to it.

I don't know why God would take the Holy Spirit away... we'll ask Him in eternity.. I haven't the time to search for a biblical reason at this time.

 

[JacksBratt]

They will be.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 King James Version (KJV)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

I agree with this scripture.. How can you comfort each other by saying "it's going to be hell on earth but we will get through it"?

I can comfort people by stating "We will be taken and spend time with Him in paradise, away from the carnage on earth"

 

[JacksBratt]

These verses refer to the second coming of Jesus after the tribulation (seven last plagues).

When this happens the righteous that are alive and the resurrected righteous will go up to Jesus in the cloud and evil multitude will be put to death by the glory of the Lord. No one left on this planet except satan and his evil angels.

On that note... how many do you think will be alive? I mean, how many out of 2.2 million Christians, do you think can go for 3.5 to 7 years with no job, no money, no food, no shelter.. running and sneaking around to avoid being turned in by the rest of the world who have taken the mark and worship the beast?

I'll ask you.. what are you going to do for those years.. without any support of any kind.. no food, no ability to buy food, shelter, work, protect yourself... How are you going to do it? Even if it was for only 3.4 years?

 

[JacksBratt]

You mean when we won't be able to buy and sell unless we can prove that we burned incense in worship of the emperor, or swear by his name, or sacrifice to the gods, like that? Like what John the Revelator told his contemporaries to whom he sent the Revelation was about to happen? "oh, he didn't mean them, he meant us." Right? Nope, he meant them, the people he was writing to. "the time is at hand", right? Not in a couple of thousand years, but at hand. "Oh, that's God's time." Baloney. he wasn't writing it to God, he was writing it to his brethren. The people who he assumed knew enough to count the number of the beast, and know what man it represented. The "rapture" folks are still waiting for events that happened millennia ago. They're still waiting for temple sacrifice to cease, although it did just that in the 1st century.

The Lord will return, when it is His good pleasure to "judge the quick and the dead". THere's an end of the matter.

Still can't say what you are going to do then? Thought not.

This will not be a small area of this world.. This will be world wide.. and those that take the mark.. will turn in their own mother, father, wife, brother or sister...

 

[civilwarbuff]

Ask your North Korean brethren about the mercies of Jong-Un Kim.

Well, Kim is not the 'evil one' unless you know something?

Let's face it, Western Christians think "persecution" means people saying mean things about us.

Couldn't agree more......

But out there in the Cold Cruel, Christians are dying, often horribly, for the Faith. In North Korea, in China, in India, in the Islamic world, and others, the cross around your neck can get you tortured and killed. But no, God wouldn't allow that to happen to us, oh no no no no!

Well, according to Jesus it will be a time like has never existed before. So while I don't disagree with your assessment how does that compare to what Jesus told us?

 

[Jamdoc]

But there are scriptures people can interpret to mean pre-trib. But there are scriptures which can be used to mean post-trib.

But Jesus says His yoke is easy and His burden is light. And our Apostle Paul said his affliction was "light" > 2 Corinthians 4:17. So, I see how in God's almighty grace we can experience things better than we might now feel about things. How we are can effect how we are ready to understand God's word.

According to what I see in Revelation 7, there will be "servants" of God in the tribulation, plus that multitude which no one could number will come out of it. Now, if God's wrath judgments are tormenting and killing the evil people, how much will they be able to make trouble for God's people . . . unless perhaps at times God allows them to do certain things?? If, for one example, those stinging locusts are hunting and tormenting evil people, how much can they be making trouble for whoever is in the trib and serving God?

If a person is serving God, by the way, the person is not likely to be running scared and hiding. And it says ones will be "servants".

So, I can see at least one scenario > God takes care of those who serve Him; we seek Him first and He adds all we need. His wrath judgments can kill evil people, and those serving can use the food and other resources of dead people . . . no need to pay for them. Food will spoil if no one gleans it. Gleaning is scriptural. Whole fields can be abandoned, or even whole supermarkets and home refrigerators, because of people being killed or being chased away by stinging locusts or other means.

And if God does have His "servants" serving Him during the trib . . . do we want to help them or leave them on their own???? Paul would have loved to leave this life and all his tribulation he was suffering here, and be with Jesus >

"Nevertheless, to remain in the flesh is more needful for you." (Philippians 1:24)

And our Apostle Paul says that with God we can help anyone "in any trouble" > 2 Corinthians 1:14-15. Even if we don't know what a trouble will be, "any" covers it, I would say.

So, while we may be calling one another liars, and interpreting scripture to say what no actual Bible quote says . . . God's word is discerning us > Hebrews 4:12 > discerning "the thoughts and intents of" our hearts > God's word is discerning how we are, now, plus showing how we can become with Him who can handle anything with us.

I'm not calling anyone a liar, I just think that people are having wishful thinking that they will not suffer any tribulation if they live to see those days they want to be raptured up without suffering.
But Revelation 6-11 are not out of context, they are context, it's a clear order of events. The applicable hermeneutics is to compare the scripture about what happens at the breaking of the 6th seal (sun darkened, moon as blood) compared with scripture about the Day of the Lord, in Matthew 24 and other places. When does it happen in Revelation 6? After the first 4 seals that cause 1/4 of the world's population to die, after the 5th seal where you have the souls of Christians who were martyred begging God for justice, while He tells them to wait a season (which might literally be around 3 months in this case of GREAT tribulation, remember, the Lord WILL shorten the GREAT tribulation to spare some of the elect)
The servants that are alive during the actual pouring out of God's wrath on the earth are the sealed 144,000 and the 2 witnesses, the 144,000 are protected from the wrath of God and the antichrist will martyr the 2 witnesses and leave them in the streets and after 3 days they will rise and ascend to heaven.
You may die for your witness. Be ready for it if you are a disciple of Christ.

 

[Jamdoc]

Another thing people miss is when He came in what we call His First Coming, is that He actually came twice. One time to a great announcement to the people, such as His star and angels singing. The other time was after the resurrection after He forbade Martha from touching Him because He had not yet gone onto the Father, but then a short time later He told others to touch Him. That's an indicator that He left and came back again, but this time it was silent, with no announcement or fanfare. The Second Coming has the same type of appearance. The first will be silent, with no fanfare, the second will see the stars roll away, trumpets will blast, and all eyes will see Him.

Another thing people miss is the example He gives us in the three-stage harvest. We have the firstfruits, the main harvest, and then the gleanings. In the first two stages, God declares the grain gathered belongs to the owner of the field, but the last, the gleanings or the edges of the field, belong to the poor and outcast.

We've already seen the offering of the firstfruits. Paul describes this as the resurrection of Christ in 1 Corinthians 15:23. That verse also describes the main harvest at His next coming, where those who belong to God are taken (raptured). That's the first two stages where God, the owner of the field, gathers what belongs to Him.

Then in verses 24 and 25, Paul does this funny little thing and states concerning stage 3, the gleanings, that's the part which he states occurs at the end, at the time Jesus comes to end the rulers of this earth and begin to reign. So, when you are reading passages concerning the time when He comes in great power and setting up His Kingdom, you are reading about the 3rd stage of the harvest. The first two stages had already past.

How do you justify the clear order of events in Revelation then? Jesus told his disciples the SIGNS of His coming. If they would already be raptured up by then, there's no point to the signs He tells them.

 

[Jamdoc]

It's time to get ready.

So be in constant prayer, read your bible and trust in Christ.
There is no other preparation regardless of your stance on when the rapture will occur.
But by trusting in Christ, I mean TRUST in Christ.
One thing that I worry about with pre trib rapture folks is that they're scared to die for the name of Jesus, they're scared to suffer the tribulations. Will your faith be strong if mid trib, post trib, pre wrath are right? If you're being led up to a gallows, or lined up in a firing squad, or have your head placed to the ground and a swordsman is about to take your head for not receiving the mark, not worshiping the leader of the world who declared Himself God, for professing the name of Jesus Christ as King... are you going to stand firm in that faith when what you believed God would do for you didn't happen?
For me, I've been conditioned to suffer and expect to suffer, if I'm being led to my execution for professing Christ, it will only strengthen my faith, because it is exactly what I expected to happen as said in His word. My soul will go to God, and I will know the Lord will avenge me.
No time would I feel more faith in the Lord than in that moment, knowing this was prophecy from thousands of years ago.

 

[Jamdoc]

What makes you think that? Why would Jesus abandon His Church and leave them to the 'mercies' of the evil one?

Why does God let bad things happen to His flock right now? God doesn't protect you from the free will of others, even if it's used to do evil to you.
God's going to protect us from the 7 trumpets and 7 vials of His wrath, God is going to protect us from eternal torture in Hell. That is enough. Any misery brought on me by the evil one, that will be paid back for the rest of eternity.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

On that note... how many do you think will be alive? I mean, how many out of 2.2 million Christians, do you think can go for 3.5 to 7 years with no job, no money, no food, no shelter.. running and sneaking around to avoid being turned in by the rest of the world who have taken the mark and worship the beast?

I'll ask you.. what are you going to do for those years.. without any support of any kind.. no food, no ability to buy food, shelter, work, protect yourself... How are you going to do it? Even if it was for only 3.4 years?

When Jesus comes the seven last plagues and the mark of the beast are over. He takes the righteous both those who have died (First resurrection) and those alive to heaven with him. Those that choose not to follow Jesus are DEAD and will be resurrected (second resurrection) after the 1,000 years satan is only one on the earth for those 1000 years.

Probation is closed before Jesus comes in the clouds.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

What makes you think that? Why would Jesus abandon His Church and leave them to the 'mercies' of the evil one?

He does not abandoned his people he protects them.

 

[JacksBratt]

When Jesus comes the seven last plagues and the mark of the beast are over. He takes the righteous both those who have died (First resurrection) and those alive to heaven with him. Those that choose not to follow Jesus are DEAD and will be resurrected (second resurrection) after the 1,000 years satan is only one on the earth for those 1000 years.

Probation is closed before Jesus comes in the clouds.

I thought that Satan was bound for the thousand years?

 

[JacksBratt]

Why does God let bad things happen to His flock right now? God doesn't protect you from the free will of others, even if it's used to do evil to you.
God's going to protect us from the 7 trumpets and 7 vials of His wrath, God is going to protect us from eternal torture in Hell. That is enough. Any misery brought on me by the evil one, that will be paid back for the rest of eternity.

Right now we have laws against religious discrimination. We have multiple leaders of the world, we have free will to worship who we want. No leader has people worship them. We have laws and peace officers.

In the tribulation, there will be one world leader, the false prophet and the beast. The unholy trinity. They will force you to worship the beast. There will be no religion... anywhere. There will be no human rights for those that don't bow to the anti-christ...

This will be world wide... Not like now where much of the world is free. Even in areas where it is not.. God is working and there are underground churches..

The tribulation will be a whole new ball game.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

I thought that Satan was bound for the thousand years?

Yes he is symbolically, there is no one for him to deceive thus he is bound here on an empty planet (void of living humans)

 

[Jipsah]

Still can't say what you are going to do then? Thought not.

I'm at a loss as to what that's supposed to mean.

This will not be a small area of this world.. This will be world wide.. and those that take the mark.. will turn in their own mother, father, wife, brother or sister...

The mark was sacrificing to caesar.