What are the BIG things in the Bible we must accept as Christians? (Please no debating or criticism)

[ViaCrucis]

It does not matter if he says we are to hate our sin. The fact that he promotes that he sins and that he is no doubt saved by God's grace is turning God's grace into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). No offense, but this is why I strive not to talk with Lutherans (generally speaking). They just do not get basic morality or the goodness of God. God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12). Paul says shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid (Romans 6:1-2). Only God can show a person truths in Scripture to a person someday (if they are open to hearing such truth).

It sounds to me that you're problem with talking to Lutherans is that we preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ, we don't mix the Gospel and the Law together which results in pride, arrogance, and despair. We preach the Law as Law, condemning us in our sin, by which we are mortified in our flesh, and held culpable for every word, thought, and deed. And we preach the Gospel as Gospel, the pure word of God that sinners though we be, God in His infinite goodness, kindness, love, and grace saves us in spite of ourselves.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Only God can show a person truths in Scripture to a person someday (if they are open to hearing such truth).

We can testify of His Grace, tell of His Kingdom, even some can "make disciples" as Jesus commanded.

But yes, no one, not in any church or group or country or time, can receive (grasp/ understand) anything unless the Father in heaven grants it to them.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Comments:

Item 14 - The Rapture is someone's pet doctrine, with no historical support - it just popped up rather late in Christian history. It is attractive, but we are told to wait and hope for Christ's return and the general resurrection.

Item 22 - Dualistic thinking leads us to think if there is a Heaven, there must be a Hell. The creation accounts in the Bible, however, speak only of the creation of the heavens and the earth. We also have the witness of the phrase "heaven and earth," but never "hell and earth." Of the four words rendered as "hell" in the Bible (some Bibles), two come to us from Greek mythology, and one is a place in the real world that you can visit today. We are left with the Hebrew "sheol," the realm of the dead, translated as "the grave" or "the pit" about half the time in the KJV. After a lot of time spent on the subject, the best I can say is that Hell is a 404.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Item 22 - Dualistic thinking leads us to think if there is a Heaven, there must be a Hell. The creation accounts in the Bible, however, speak only of the creation of the heavens and the earth.

...
from memory: (years ago), in Scripture, the mouth or size of ( place where the condemned are sent after judgment day) has been increasing (made larger by Yahweh) every day , as the number of wicked people increases....

i.e. it was not created for people before people sinned, (maybe for hasatan, at first, AFTER hasatan sinned) as Yahweh did not pre-suppose or make it a place until AFTER people sinned...

 

[Lazarus Short]

...
from memory: (years ago), in Scripture, the mouth or size of ( place where the condemned are sent after judgment day) has been increasing (made larger by Yahweh) every day , as the number of wicked people increases....

The "Hellmouth" is a medieval invention, and memory can not always be relied on.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Isaiah 5:14 ESV / 12 helpful votes

Therefore Sheol has enlarged its appetite and opened its mouth beyond measure, and the nobility of Jerusalem and her multitude will go down, her revelers and he who exults in her.

The "Hellmouth" is a medieval invention, and memory can not always be relied on.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

various versions: Strong's Hebrew: 7337. רָחַב (rachab) -- 25 Occurrences

Isaiah 5:14
HEB: לָכֵ֗ן הִרְחִ֤יבָה שְּׁאוֹל֙ נַפְשָׁ֔הּ
NAS: Sheol has enlarged its throat
KJV: Therefore hell hath enlarged herself,
INT: Therefore has enlarged Sheol throat

 

[Der Alte]

Comments:
Item 14 - The Rapture is someone's pet doctrine, with no historical support - it just popped up rather late in Christian history. It is attractive, but we are told to wait and hope for Christ's return and the general resurrection.
Item 22 - Dualistic thinking leads us to think if there is a Heaven, there must be a Hell. The creation accounts in the Bible, however, speak only of the creation of the heavens and the earth. We also have the witness of the phrase "heaven and earth," but never "hell and earth." Of the four words rendered as "hell" in the Bible (some Bibles), two come to us from Greek mythology, and one is a place in the real world that you can visit today. We are left with the Hebrew "sheol," the realm of the dead, translated as "the grave" or "the pit" about half the time in the KJV. After a lot of time spent on the subject, the best I can say is that Hell is a 404.

Rubbish! As I have shown repeatedly from the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud.

The "Hellmouth" is a medieval invention, and memory can not always be relied on.

More rubbish.

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.” Joseph Goebbels NAZI Germany's minister of propaganda.​

 

[Der Alte]

Isaiah 5:14 ESV / 12 helpful votes
Therefore Sheol has enlarged its appetite and opened its mouth beyond measure, and the nobility of Jerusalem and her multitude will go down, her revelers and he who exults in her.

various versions: Strong's Hebrew: 7337. רָחַב (rachab) -- 25 Occurrences
Isaiah 5:14
HEB: לָכֵ֗ן הִרְחִ֤יבָה שְּׁאוֹל֙ נַפְשָׁ֔הּ
NAS: Sheol has enlarged its throat
KJV: Therefore hell hath enlarged herself,
INT: Therefore has enlarged Sheol throat

Now don't go confusing the UR-ites with the truth.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Isaiah 5:14 ESV / 12 helpful votes

Therefore Sheol has enlarged its appetite and opened its mouth beyond measure, and the nobility of Jerusalem and her multitude will go down, her revelers and he who exults in her.

The realm of the dead yes, but it's still not Hell. "Opened its mouth" is just poetic language.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Rubbish! As I have shown repeatedly from the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud.

More rubbish.

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.” Joseph Goebbels NAZI Germany's minister of propaganda.​

You have sidestepped the unavoidable FACT of the non-creation of Hell, and then you appeal to authority, after calling me down for it in another thread. I can never take you seriously again.

 

[Der Alte]

You have sidestepped the unavoidable FACT of the non-creation of Hell, and then you appeal to authority, after calling me down for it in another thread. I can never take you seriously again.

Wrong! As usual. Where does the Bible say angels were created? I don't care how you "take" me. I am not here to cater to your foibles.
As I have repeatedly shown you don't know what "appeal to authority" is. Although I quoted part of a lengthy definition from a university text book.

 

[Der Alte]

The realm of the dead yes, but it's still not Hell. "Opened its mouth" is just poetic language.

Uninformed opinion. Zero evidence.
…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
…..There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were differing beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);​

[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT supposed bias of Christian translators. DA]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

 

[renniks]

I believe Jesus when He says to whom much is given, much is required. If truth is revealed to us from God's Word that is essential to the faith in regards to salvation or in regards to protecting our walk with God in not going down the wrong path, then we cannot reject such a truth without facing the consequences.

No offense, but I believe Belief Alone-ism is candy land Christianity that attempts to make light of sin in some way. It is barely a surface reading of the Scriptures without really looking at the whole counsel of God's Word. Truly reading and accepting all of what the New Testament says is key. Most reject certain verses in the New Testament and they do not even realize it. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).

Ok, so what about that verse contradicts what I said?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Ok, so what about that verse contradicts what I said?

You said,

"all we have to know is that if we believe in his sacrifice for our sins,
he will save us. The rest, while all are important, don't make us Christians."
Quote by: ~ Renniks.​

I believe this is contradictory to the whole counsel of God's Word.
There are things that do relate to our salvation in my list. Not all the things I listed are salvation issues; Some things on my list (non salvation issues) are important to our walk with God and in protecting us in going down a wrong path. But I believe there are many things that do relate to our salvation besides just believing in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection for salvation (i.e. the gospel message by which we stand upon) (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

I will attempt to show the verses in support for the things on my list and show by Scripture those select things on my list which are for salvation, and why this is so with God's Word.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We must believe:

1. In the Trinity (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit)
(i.e. God exists as three distinct persons and yet He is one God or being).

Scriptural support for the Trinity:

1 John 5:7 (KJV) says,

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."​

The Bible teaches that there is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4) (1 Timothy 2:5) (Isaiah 45:5).

Yet, the Bible also teaches that there are distinctions within the Godhead or that there is a plural nature to God.

Here are a couple of quick points:

#1. The word Elohim (אֱלֹהִ֔ים) is both a singular and a plural noun.
#2. God refers to Himself in plural form (Genesis 1:26) (Genesis 3:22) (Genesis 11:7) (Isaiah 6:8).
#3. Plurality of God in New Testament (Matthew 28:19) (2 Corinthians 13:14) (John 14:16-20).
#4. Introductions to both the Son & Holy Spirit (Daniel 7:9,10,13,14) (John 14:16)
#5. Different persons of Godhead appear at one time (Luke 3:21-22)
#6. Distinctions of Wills (Luke 22:42).
#7. Conversations Between the Godhead (Psalm 2:1-12) (Psalm 45:6-7) (Psalm 110:1) (Matthew 11:27) (John 17:24).

Is not believing in the Trinity a salvation issue?

Jesus says to whom much is given, much is required (Luke 12:48).
I believe that a person will not be held guilty for something they do not know about. For we know God is fair and just. So a new believer (who does not know about the Trinity) is most likely not going to be condemned for not knowing the entire truth about God yet. But in time, when they learn of the Trinity by Scripture, and they reject that truth, I believe then it would be a salvation issue (i.e. a loss of salvation for them).

How so?

Jesus says,

"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him
must worship him in spirit and in truth." (John 4:24).​

God will turn against anyone who worships a false god.

"If any of you worship Molech, I will turn against you and your entire family, and I will no longer let you belong to my people." (Leviticus 20:5).

"He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed." (Exodus 22:20).​

If one knows of the Trinity, and they reject it: Then worshiping anything other god besides the Trinity is worship of a false god.

We can see in Leviticus 20:5, Exodus 22:20 that God will not stand for false worship of another god.

Note: I am not saying a person can worship Molech in ignorance and be saved. I am only saying that this is the case with a new believer who does not have knowledge of the Trinity so far, and yet they believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

We also know God will not accept us changing the truth of God into a lie, either.

Romans 1:25 says,

"Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator,..."​

Romans 1:26 says,

"For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections..."
​

Romans 1:21-22 says,

21 "Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,"
(Romans 1:21-22).
​

Surely this is not good if a person changes the truth of God into a lie. The truth of God on the Trinity is revealed in Scripture. If a person changes this truth of God into a lie, it surely is not good or acceptable to the Lord our God (Who is one God and yet three persons, - 1 John 5:7 KJV).

 

[renniks]

Scriptural support for the Trinity:

1 John 5:7 (KJV) says,
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

The Bible teaches that there is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4) (1 Timothy 2:5) (Isaiah 45:5).

Yet, the Bible also teaches that there are distinctions within the Godhead or that there is a plural nature to God.

Here are a couple of quick points:

#1. The word Elohim (אֱלֹהִ֔ים) is both a singular and a plural noun.
#2. God refers to Himself in plural form (Genesis 1:26) (Genesis 3:22) (Genesis 11:7) (Isaiah 6:8).
#3. Plurality of God in New Testament (Matthew 28:19) (2 Corinthians 13:14) (John 14:16-20).
#4. Introductions to both the Son & Holy Spirit (Daniel 7:9,10,13,14) (John 14:16)
#5. Different persons of Godhead appear at one time (Luke 3:21-22)
#6. Distinctions of Wills (Luke 22:42).
#7. Conversations Between the Godhead (Psalm 2:1-12) (Psalm 45:6-7) (Psalm 110:1) (Matthew 11:27) (John 17:24).

Is not believing in the Trinity a salvation issue?

Jesus says to whom much is given, much is required (Luke 12:48).
I believe that a person will not be held guilty for something they do not know about the the entire truth about God yet. But in time, when they learn of the Trinity by Scripture, and they reject that truth, I believe then it would be a salvation issue (i.e. a loss of salvation for them).

How so?

Jesus says,

"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him
must worship him in spirit and in truth." (John 4:24).

God will turn against anyone who worships a false god.

"If any of you worship Molech, I will turn against you and your entire family, and I will no longer let you belong to my people." (Leviticus 20:5).

Worshiping anything other than the Trinity is worship of a false god.
We can see in Leviticus 20:5 that God will not stand for false worship of another god.

But then you can get into the finer points of the Trinity which almost no one understands. If a person believes in partialism, because he reads these verses in the Bible and accepts that God is three in one, but in his mind pictures this like a three leaf clover, is it going to disqualify him? Put a person on a desert island with the Bible, and they get saved, do you really think their theology is going to match up to exactly what you've stated? If that was the case we would not have different denominations. Everybody reads the same thing from a different angle, and I don't think God is worried about correcting it all, he just wants sincere followers.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But then you can get into the finer points of the Trinity which almost no one understands. If a person believes in partialism, because he reads these verses in the Bible and accepts that God is three in one, but in his mind pictures this like a three leaf clover, is it going to disqualify him? Put a person on a desert island with the Bible, and they get saved, do you really think their theology is going to match up to exactly what you've stated? If that was the case we would not have different denominations. Everybody reads the same thing from a different angle, and I don't think God is worried about correcting it all, he just wants sincere followers.

Sorry, that's not a valid excuse (According to the Bible).

You act like there is no "Anointing" to know the truth.

"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." (1 John 2:27).

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."
(John 16:13).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Remember, NARROW is the way, and it is not the wide gate path.
Jesus said narrow is the way, and FEW be there that find it.
This means many are not on the narrow path. Popular Christianity casts their net wide that many will make it (When this is not true).

 

[renniks]

Sorry, that's not a valid excuse (According to the Bible).

You act like there is no "Anointing" to know the truth.

"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." (1 John 2:27).

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."
(John 16:13).

Nothing in there about losing your salvation if you don't understand the trinity perfectly.