Who gave the Law? Moses or Yahweh?

[HatGuy]

Hello everyone,

I find it fascinating that not once (that I can find) did Jesus ever refer to the Law as God's Law, but only ever as the Law of Moses.

I also find it fascinating that the NT at several places says the Law was given by angels (Acts 7:38, 7:53; Galatians 3:19; Hebrews 2:2) - this would imply it was not Yahweh directly who gave it. (The Hebrew word for "God", "Elohim", is a catch-all word for spirits, if I recall, but I can't reference that right now... if I'm right, it could explain some things, but the OT does use the name Yahweh in several instances relating to the Law outside of the ten commandments.)

1. Some say this is because only the ten commandments were God's Law and the rest (ceremonial and state laws) was the Law of Moses.

2. Some say it is because Moses misinterpreted or misrepresented God's real Law, unable to shake some of his cultural limitations (and so Jesus sets the record straight).

3. Some say it is because "Law", as in "Torah", does not refer to a moral code but to a spiritual word of sorts; a way of life empowered by the study of God's Law. In this sense there are double or hidden meanings to be found in the OT and the Law was never meant to be taken literally.

Of course, how Jesus changes or contradicts the "Law" is interesting. Some say he does not contradict it. At the very least, one can say he changes it or re-interprets it in His own way (and sometimes, even agreeing with the teachings of his Rabbi contemporaries).

And Paul's very negative view of the Law (although Messianic Christians may disagree that it was completely negative) is interesting too.

I'm very interested in hearing opinions on this.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Paul refers positively to the righteousness of God without the law in Romans 3, being witnessed by the law and the prophets.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Well, for those of us who believe the bible is God's written word that is simple.....
Exodus 20 New International Version (NIV)
The Ten Commandments
20 And God spoke all these words:

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

3 “You shall have no other gods beforea]">[a] me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

12 “Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.

13 “You shall not murder.

14 “You shall not commit adultery.

15 “You shall not steal.

16 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

God did...........

 

[HatGuy]

Paul refers positively to the righteousness of God without the law in Romans 3, being witnessed by the law and the prophets.

Could you unpack in a little more detail what you are getting at?

 

[faroukfarouk]

Could you unpack in a little more detail what you are getting at?

If you read Romans 3 you will see that Paul far from repudiates the law's usefulness, but it the righteousness which is of God by faith that is involved in the believer's salvation, not law-keeping.

 

[HatGuy]

Well, for those of us who believe the bible is God's written word that is simple.....
Exodus 20 New International Version (NIV)
The Ten Commandments
20 And God spoke all these words:

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

3 “You shall have no other gods beforea]">[a] me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

12 “Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.

13 “You shall not murder.

14 “You shall not commit adultery.

15 “You shall not steal.

16 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

God did...........

Are you rooting for option (1) in the OP, or are you saying ALL of the OT Laws were given directly by God?

If so, does or does Jesus not contradict it?

And what do you do about the difficult laws surrounding putting people to death, etc.?

 

[HatGuy]

If you read Romans 3 you will see that Paul far from repudiates the law's usefulness, but it the righteousness which is of God by faith that is involved in the believer's salvation, not law-keeping.

I agree, but I'm not sure if this answers the OP (only concerns a side-comment about Paul I made).

 

[faroukfarouk]

I agree, but I'm not sure if this answers the OP (only concerns a side-comment about Paul I made).

In Matthew 4.7, the Lord Jesus clearly invokes God's authority in the Old Testament.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I'm very interested in hearing opinions on this.

Why?

==========================================

I find it fascinating that not once (that I can find) did Jesus ever refer to the Law as God's Law, but only ever as the Law of Moses.

Can the Father in heaven reveal the Truth about TORAH ?
(not what anyone can "find", themselves)

 

[solid_core]

Both. Some parts were given to Israel by God (inspired), some parts were given by Moses (not inspired).

For example rules about divorce were given by Moses, as Jesus himself said.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Both. Some parts were given to Israel by God (inspired), some parts were given by Moses (not inspired).

Be careful saying "not inspired" about anything said by anyone chosen and called by Yahweh .... even when we are called or dragged before court/ judges/ we are to not even think ahead of time what we will say (yep, no 'preparing' our case),
for THE FATHER HIMSELF will be speaking through us, His Words, not our own.

Remember a high priest spoke exactly as Yahweh Said a prophecy, in fulfillment of prophecy , even though the high priest refused to repent, refused to follow the Messiah Jesus, Yahushua Hamashiach, Who they were waiting for.

 

[solid_core]

Be careful saying "not inspired" about anything said by anyone chosen and called by Yahweh .... even when we are called or dragged before court/ judges/ we are to not even think ahead of time what we will say (yep, no 'preparing' our case),
for THE FATHER HIMSELF will be speaking through us, His Words, not our own.

Remember a high priest spoke exactly as Yahweh Said a prophecy, in fulfillment of prophecy , even though the high priest refused to repent, refused to follow the Messiah Jesus, Yahushua Hamashiach, Who they were waiting for.

Divorce is not inspired. Period.

 

[HatGuy]

Both. Some parts were given to Israel by God (inspired), some parts were given by Moses (not inspired).

For example rules about divorce were given by Moses, as Jesus himself said.

Is there a way of knowing from the original text?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Hello everyone,

I find it fascinating that not once (that I can find) did Jesus ever refer to the Law as God's Law, but only ever as the Law of Moses.

I also find it fascinating that the NT at several places says the Law was given by angels (Acts 7:38, 7:53; Galatians 3:19; Hebrews 2:2) - this would imply it was not Yahweh directly who gave it. (The Hebrew word for "God", "Elohim", is a catch-all word for spirits, if I recall, but I can't reference that right now... if I'm right, it could explain some things, but the OT does use the name Yahweh in several instances relating to the Law outside of the ten commandments.)

1. Some say this is because only the ten commandments were God's Law and the rest (ceremonial and state laws) was the Law of Moses.

2. Some say it is because Moses misinterpreted or misrepresented God's real Law, unable to shake some of his cultural limitations (and so Jesus sets the record straight).

3. Some say it is because "Law", as in "Torah", does not refer to a moral code but to a spiritual word of sorts; a way of life empowered by the study of God's Law. In this sense there are double or hidden meanings to be found in the OT and the Law was never meant to be taken literally.

Of course, how Jesus changes or contradicts the "Law" is interesting. Some say he does not contradict it. At the very least, one can say he changes it or re-interprets it in His own way (and sometimes, even agreeing with the teachings of his Rabbi contemporaries).

And Paul's very negative view of the Law (although Messianic Christians may disagree that it was completely negative) is interesting too.

I'm very interested in hearing opinions on this.

The Ot was a preclude to humans receiving authority to see and hear God personally thru Christ, the human aspect of the covenant new. The OC given thru the angels was according to the lesser spirit domaine I would think.

 

[HatGuy]

Why?

An answer could resolve the more violent laws of the OT.

Can the Father in heaven reveal the Truth about TORAH ?
(not what anyone can "find", themselves)

Of course, He can, but this implies there is some sort of hidden truth within Torah, does it not? And if so, how do we know this is the right way to treat it (and does this mean we should not take it literally?)

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Divorce is not inspired. Period.

See how you changed the subject ?

hmmm..... was that "inspired" ?

Well, Yahweh directs all things, everything, for good to those who love (obey) Him , who are called according to His Purpose....

 

[solid_core]

Is there a way of knowing from the original text?

The text itself is so old and the earliest copies are so far away from the time of writing that I would say no. We have no certainity regarding the Old testament text. Only tradition.

Which is OK, because the Old Testament was not given for us.

 

[HatGuy]

In Matthew 4.7, the Lord Jesus clearly invokes God's authority in the Old Testament.

It is implied but also not stated directly. He says "the scriptures also say..." but does not say "God says," indicating there is authority in the OT but the question still remains - is all of it God's instructions, given directly by God, or only certain parts of it?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

An answer could resolve the more violent laws of the OT.

There is nothing to resolve, non-violent or violent. Yahweh's Word is totally and perfectly in complete harmony, IN His Wisdom, Understanding and Purpose.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

...
Of course, He can, but this implies there is some sort of hidden truth within Torah, does it not? And if so, how do we know this is the right way to treat it (and does this mean we should not take it literally?)

No one need "imply" there is some hidden truth.

Jesus says it is hidden plainly,

and Jesus says that only when the Father reveals it is it received by a man. (or woman/ or little children) .

 

[HatGuy]

The Ot was a preclude to humans receiving authority to see and hear God personally thru Christ, the human aspect of the covenant new. The OC given thru the angels was according to the lesser spirit domaine I would think.

I agree in principle, but was all of the OC actually given by angels (not Yahweh directly) and does this mean that it is not a pure form of God's morality?