Polyamory: Pastors’ Next Sexual Frontier

High Fidelity

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Oh. It looked like you might have been trying to hide a higher level of obesity in your own country by pointing fingers elsewhere.

No, not at all. The UK has plenty of problems of its own, obesity being one of them.

In fact it's the most costly aspect of our health spending; obesity-related issues and diabetes.
 
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JacksBratt

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Actually the opposite is closer the truth. Compare this to a husband who goes out of town on a business trip, spends a night with a prostitute or a loose woman at the hotel bar, then it is over and never spoken of again. He goes home to his wife, carries on as if it had never happened, and carries the dark secret to the grave with him. Both have broken their vows, but who has shown greater disrespect to the marriage covenant?

Concealing your extramarital trysts, in fact, is evidence that even though you haven't honored your marriage vows, at least they don't mean nothing to you. Trying to keep the appearance of a monogamous marriage implies seeing some value in it. This, of course, is what polyamory aims to end - it aims to create a culture where monogamy isn't valued.
So, I guess, using this logic... You can just tell the person, "I'm going to steal your car" and it's OK?

Or, "insert sin here" but make sure you tell the person you are sinning against.. and it's all better?

Seriously.... This is whacked. No other words for it.
 
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chevyontheriver

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of the same skin color
That might be true of some Reformed influenced groups but has never been true for Catholics. Oh, but then there were some Lutheran groups who would not allow German Lutherans to marry Norwegian Lutherans.
 
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JacksBratt

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When are they going to address obesity/gluttony?

That's over 70 million (21% of adults in the U.S.) living in open sin.

By contrast, 4.5% of the population identify as LGBT.

That's a serious problem and a huge imbalance of attention and outrage.

Forget the bedroom, there are more souls lost at the dinner table and drive-thru before we even enter the bedroom.
Sorry.. but none of this means "Lost Souls".... All are redeemable... and forgivable.... No souls need to be lost..

Sin corrected.. yes... souls lost.. Not unless they are people who reject Christ.. then... it could be as easy as going over the speed limit, hitting your sister, taking two pieces of gum instead of one, cheating on a test, lying to your mom...

We are all "lost souls" at first... Christ... well... He freed us from that.. if we don't reject Him.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I did not say that. If they have a medical reason then obviously that matters. However, as someone with hypothyroidism myself, the whole point of medication is to bring back your hormones to normal levels which means metabolic issues are seldom a problem.

I was directing my criticism towards those that don't have medical problems (the majority). It has become so normalised in society today that many don't see wrong in it and certainly don't see that they share the same fate as any other open, unapologetic sinner.

This is a problem that exists in part, in my opinion, because of the hyper-fixation on specific sins. When a Pastor preaches less and less about the personal journey with Christ and how we ought to live our life according to Scripture and God's desire and more and more about 'what's wrong with society' or 'the family unit being under attack'... those have no edifying value to the individual. Why are we pointing out what a tiny minority are doing instead of highlighting what a very large number of people are doing?

It's reckless. That kind of preaching is nothing but standing by the wide gate, shepherding people through.
Fat people are looked down on by everyone, the medical field, all the neighbors, it's not socially acceptable to be fat. And you want the Church to pile on? Not to accompany these people in their struggles?

Why just fat people? I'm sure even a higher percentage of people lack the proper environmental attitudes. What about their continual state of sin? Shouldn't they be condemned first, and then fat people?
 
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redleghunter

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I think all that needs to be said is that the idea of a 'sexual frontier' says a lot about the church today.
You don’t believe Christian, especially Biblical and creedal churches should be making clear the sanctity of the God ordained monogamous one man one woman marriage?

I ask because that is what the article is about and also addresses pastoral approaches to polyamory relationships within the church.

My point wasn't to detract from its necessity, but to highlight the seemingly wilful inaction against other sins which statistically speaking 1/5 are likely guilty of themselves and see no wrong in it whilst pointing the finger at others.
What finger pointing? Seems you are accusing pastors of not dealing with all issues in the life of the church. What makes you think they don’t?

I guess with regards to my church which is mostly active duty military and military retired, obesity is not something our pastor has to deal with.

Or was it your point to try to shame some folks here? Because we know this has everything to do with the shortcomings of other Christians and not the Righteousness of God. ;)

With all that, would you like to address the OP and dispense with the red herrings.
 
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redleghunter

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redleghunter

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As I have had to say a few times now, obesity is often a metabolic thing and not a gluttony thing. Sometimes it is a gluttony thing. Sometimes not. Many overweight people eat like birds. Many thin people chow down like hippos.
It seems some don’t want to address the OP and somehow this thread is about gluttony. Lol.

When Paul addressed gluttony I’m sure within the historical context it was clearly about food and those who had their fill and more while others had want for food. I’m sure this is within the context of the various churches where he observed fellow Christians who were mostly poor and living day to day for food over well off Christians who had their fill with much left over.

The same issue faces our church today but it is not food solely but money aka income. So a glutton today may just be brothers and sisters who withhold their wealth from the church and by extension those in need within the church. That may manifest in BMI visibly but cannot be the sole metric for a pastor.

Yet here we are again...Discussing a pastoral and church moral issue on the sanctity of marriage and fellow Christians do not want to address the actual issue at hand.
 
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DamianWarS

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Article from Christianity Today:

A pastor recently told me (Preston) about Tyler and Amanda (names changed), high-school sweethearts raised in Christian homes, living in the Bible belt. After getting married, they seemed to be living the American dream with a house, good jobs, and two kids. Then Jon, a friend of Tyler’s, began living with their family. Amanda developed a close relationship with him, but their flirtation soon developed into something more, and Jon and Amanda proposed to Tyler that they begin exploring polyamory, with Amanda adding Jon as a significant other. They also encouraged Tyler to develop a relationship with another woman he’d met at the gym. He agreed.

When Tyler and Amanda came out as polyamorous, their parents were shocked. What seemed like a fringe practice of the sexual revolution had settled into the heartland of Middle America.

Making the situation even more complex, Tyler and Amanda sought counseling from a Christian counselor who advocated polyamory. Tyler’s parents were disturbed by what their son and daughter-in-law heard there: “It’s only adultery or cheating if someone is kept in the dark. If you are open and honest, this is a God-honoring relationship. And this is good for the kids! It takes a village to raise a child, so a polyamorous relationship actually brings more support and ‘family’ into your kids’ lives, much like the extended families in the past.”

Tyler’s parents wanted to know how to respond to their children but also wanted to know how the church should respond. Should Jon be welcomed into the church as an addition to Tyler and Amanda’s family? In a world where many sexual choices and identities are accepted, polyamory is often still stigmatized, so Tyler’s parents didn’t know who to talk to or where to turn.

An Introduction to Polyamory
For many Christians, polyamory seems so extreme and rare that there’s no need to talk about it. But it is much more common than some people think, and it’s growing in popularity. According to one estimate, “as many as 5 percent of Americans are currently in relationships involving consensual nonmonogamy,” which is about the same percentage as those who identify as LGBTQ. A recent study, published in a peer-reviewed journal, found that 20 percent of Americans have been in a consensual non-monogamous relationship at least once in their life. Another survey showed that nearly 70 percent of non-religious Americans between the ages of 24 and 35 believe that polyamory is okay, even if it’s not their cup of tea. And perhaps most shocking of all, according to sociologist Mark Regnerus in Cheap Sex, roughly 24 percent of church-going people believe that consensual polyamorous relationships are morally permissible.

More at the link: Polyamory: Pastors’ Next Sexual Frontier

I think some Christians who supported same-sex marriage scoffed at other Christians when they said "this just opens the door for polygamy and other non-traditional unions." Well it is showing up in a church near you.

The "it takes a village" expression is taken out of context when used to justify multiple partners. It is beneficial to have a lot of parental figures or role models for children and no one is challenging this but that doesn't give us the license to have sex with them all. Why don't I invite my kids school teacher in my bed too since they have an impact on my kid wellbeing.

In reality the choice to have multiple partners is a sexual ambition that has nothing to do with kids and the "it takes a village" tag line is superimposed over it to give it more weight. We don't need to have sex with people for them to have a positive impact on our children's life. People just need to admit that they want multiple partners for selfish reasons and not to raise their kids better.

Communal villages don't run this way. It would be better to have multiple people living in the same space that stick to traditional forms of marriage and then you can say "it takes a village" but it doesn't take a village to have sex with a bunch of people, that has nothing to do with it.
 
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redleghunter

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It's because this is yet another example of a smaller issue taking eyes away from much bigger issues.
Marriage is a small issue for a pastor and the church?

Look at the article cited polls again. It’s not that this type of relationship is a huge problem for the church now, but a sizable percentage of church members see no problem with it. It’s why the article is more advice to pastors than sounding an alarm.
 
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redleghunter

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That is a massive problem that needs addressing. Because those that sit there wagging their finger at homosexuals or non-traditional marriage arrangements whilst obese themselves, well, they are destined for the same fate as those they're condemning, yet no one wants to raise the subject.
Or maybe the finger wagging folks are well fit. Would that make those finger wagging folks more just in the finger wagging?

Or just maybe no one is finger wagging and that is your invention to shame others to not uphold the Righteousness of God?

Again perhaps start with the OP. It is written by a pastor to pastors and churches providing advice.

1. Was the author wrong in identifying polyamorous relationships as adulterous and a violation of God’s law?

2. Did the advice he gave pastors and churches on how to deal with Christians presenting themselves as polyamorous seem the right approach?
 
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DamianWarS

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It's because this is yet another example of a smaller issue taking eyes away from much bigger issues.

I've never understood the preoccupation with what goes on behind the bedroom door. It is spoken about far more often with far more urgency than other issues, like obesity/gluttony.

So my point and question is why do people labour so fervently to highlight an issue that encompasses 4.5% of the U.S. population when there's another sin that encompasses 21% of the U.S. population?

My guess is that it's easier to point the finger at other sins as a means of deflecting from our own. And in terms of obesity/gluttony, it's become so commonplace that most people don't consider it a sin at all.

That is a massive problem that needs addressing. Because those that sit there wagging their finger at homosexuals or non-traditional marriage arrangements whilst obese themselves, well, they are destined for the same fate as those they're condemning, yet no one wants to raise the subject.
You're right, but the place to raise that issue is in a thread about gluttony.
 
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DamianWarS

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Stuff I'm spewing?

So you are saying 'marriage equality' is not about the ability of a bisexual person to find fulfillment in marrying at least one man AND at least one woman? I'm spewing?
We are not born sexually motivated. There is no such thing as a gay baby or for that matter a straight baby. It's just a baby with no sexual appetite.

The right to marry is a civil right that is defined by the laws of the land. This right and these laws don't necessarily inform us of God's desires. They may overlap and might have once been borrowed from biblical themes but their motive typically has nothing to do with the bible or God.

Marriage equality will probably progress to be about a bisexual personal looking both ways for a partner but currently the law doesn't favour this. But our civil rights really have nothing to do with God's desires for us and we should treat them separately ultimately sacrificing our civil rights to serve God.
 
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SoldierOfTheKing

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The OP isn’t really about sexual sin so much as it is about false teaching about marriage. Adultery has always been with us, but as I mentioned previously, the old fashioned type of cheating wasn’t about undermining our concept of marriage. That’s the real reason polyamorists condemn it - because it pays lip service to what they aim to tear down.
 
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Angeldove97

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As a Catholic, no way - I can't imagine this kind of lifestyle fitting into God's view on what the SACRAMENT of HOLY matrimony is supposed to be (LOUD SCREAMING WORDS on purpose).

We have close friends (I grew up with the husband) who are married (in the legal sense - they weren't married in the Church (or any church), aren't Christians, etc) and have an open marriage. She does stuff with another close friend (who I went to school with too), but I'm not sure about the husband. All I see is that he seems very angry about her "getting action" (although he doesn't care about her and the other friend begin together - they're besties). But I wouldn't say that their open marriage is what hurts them the most (there's more baggage there too).

I will say that my gay friend and his significant other (I won't call him a husband, spouse, etc - as I don't see them as such even if they are legally "married") have a better relationship together than those with an open "marriage".

Honestly, I wish the government would get rid of marriage - call of them civil unions with spouses having rights. Save marriage for religious context only.
 
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DamianWarS

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So, I guess, using this logic... You can just tell the person, "I'm going to steal your car" and it's OK?

Or, "insert sin here" but make sure you tell the person you are sinning against.. and it's all better?

Seriously.... This is whacked. No other words for it.
I think what he's saying is that hiding sin still shows that we agree it's still sin but when we all agree that it's ok and do it in the open this a greater moral problem.

So the man secretly cheating on his wife ironically may be in a better moral standing than the one that does it with her permission because the former shows the man is somewhat guilty of the sin and so hides it where the latter shows both wife and husband have lost their ability to judge what is sinful.

Both are sinful, both violate the marriage vows but polyamory seems to be ignorant of this and this doesn't help them.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Yet here we are again...Discussing a pastoral and church moral issue on the sanctity of marriage and fellow Christians do not want to address the actual issue at hand.
It is illuminating just how far gone the establishment of Christianity is and how quickly it has happened. Like greased lightning.

The obesity/gluttony argument in favor of perversions of marriage is quite popular now. But it's use is to imply that absolutely no Christian pastor can advise or require that marriage among their congregants is to be between one man and one woman until and unless obesity is solved first. It's a clever little redirect. Oh the poor obese people who are all going to hell while the pastor is totally silent about their fate! Clever tools. Never mind my parish had addressed this years ago and has a parish nurse even to work with people on health issues.

You are right to call it a red herring.
 
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Angeldove97

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I think what he's saying is that hiding sin still shows that we agree it's still sin but when we all agree that it's ok and do it in the open this a greater moral problem.

I'm finding this notion to be very hard to deal with as an adult. (Though then I remind myself I should just be worrying about my own sin if I'm trying to be a good Catholic.) Idk what to do with other people's sins ruining society.
 
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chevyontheriver

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As a Catholic, no way - I can't imagine this kind of lifestyle fitting into God's view on what the SACRAMENT of HOLY matrimony is supposed to be (LOUD SCREAMING WORDS on purpose).

We have close friends (I grew up with the husband) who are married (in the legal sense - they weren't married in the Church (or any church), aren't Christians, etc) and have an open marriage. She does stuff with another close friend (who I went to school with too), but I'm not sure about the husband. All I see is that he seems very angry about her "getting action" (although he doesn't care about her and the other friend begin together - they're besties). But I wouldn't say that their open marriage is what hurts them the most (there's more baggage there too).

I will say that my gay friend and his significant other (I won't call him a husband, spouse, etc - as I don't see them as such even if they are legally "married") have a better relationship together than those with an open "marriage".

Honestly, I wish the government would get rid of marriage - call of them civil unions with spouses having rights. Save marriage for religious context only.
I think then people who want a civil ceremony could have that and think what they want. And Christians could join in matrimony. Call them two separate things that only superficially look like each other.
 
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Article from Christianity Today:

A pastor recently told me (Preston) about Tyler and Amanda (names changed), high-school sweethearts raised in Christian homes, living in the Bible belt. After getting married, they seemed to be living the American dream with a house, good jobs, and two kids. Then Jon, a friend of Tyler’s, began living with their family. Amanda developed a close relationship with him, but their flirtation soon developed into something more, and Jon and Amanda proposed to Tyler that they begin exploring polyamory, with Amanda adding Jon as a significant other. They also encouraged Tyler to develop a relationship with another woman he’d met at the gym. He agreed.

When Tyler and Amanda came out as polyamorous, their parents were shocked. What seemed like a fringe practice of the sexual revolution had settled into the heartland of Middle America.

Making the situation even more complex, Tyler and Amanda sought counseling from a Christian counselor who advocated polyamory. Tyler’s parents were disturbed by what their son and daughter-in-law heard there: “It’s only adultery or cheating if someone is kept in the dark. If you are open and honest, this is a God-honoring relationship. And this is good for the kids! It takes a village to raise a child, so a polyamorous relationship actually brings more support and ‘family’ into your kids’ lives, much like the extended families in the past.”

Tyler’s parents wanted to know how to respond to their children but also wanted to know how the church should respond. Should Jon be welcomed into the church as an addition to Tyler and Amanda’s family? In a world where many sexual choices and identities are accepted, polyamory is often still stigmatized, so Tyler’s parents didn’t know who to talk to or where to turn.

An Introduction to Polyamory
For many Christians, polyamory seems so extreme and rare that there’s no need to talk about it. But it is much more common than some people think, and it’s growing in popularity. According to one estimate, “as many as 5 percent of Americans are currently in relationships involving consensual nonmonogamy,” which is about the same percentage as those who identify as LGBTQ. A recent study, published in a peer-reviewed journal, found that 20 percent of Americans have been in a consensual non-monogamous relationship at least once in their life. Another survey showed that nearly 70 percent of non-religious Americans between the ages of 24 and 35 believe that polyamory is okay, even if it’s not their cup of tea. And perhaps most shocking of all, according to sociologist Mark Regnerus in Cheap Sex, roughly 24 percent of church-going people believe that consensual polyamorous relationships are morally permissible.

More at the link: Polyamory: Pastors’ Next Sexual Frontier

I think some Christians who supported same-sex marriage scoffed at other Christians when they said "this just opens the door for polygamy and other non-traditional unions." Well it is showing up in a church near you.
Coming from a country where polygamy is a traditional practice and still practiced today, I can practically guarantee that polyamorous relationships are going to be much more abusive in all sorts of ways. It doesn't take a lot to see how much more abusive this could be. There's a reason why more sophisticated cultures jettisoned polyamory, polygamy, and so forth. Unfortunately, it takes at least a generation to prove it, and by then everyone is so hurt and broken that they just keep the hurting going.

Just this story already shows an abusive relationship. She clearly didn't want to commit to one guy or the other, so she drags the other guy into her own selfishness, but deflects her selfishness by using a guy's sexual drive against him, making it all look like everyone gets what they want. But all the jealousy, the manipulation, the ganging up against someone... it's so obvious how this could be used to at least emotionally abuse someone, nevermind sexually or physically abuse them.

The advantage of all this is it's proving wrong the "born this way" argument. That argument is fading away fast.

People have a strange view of 'sin'. Sin is sin because it hurts people. God isn't some killjoy. The reason why this is sin is because it will hurt people, including those who are most innocent: the kids.
 
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