ARE WE IGNORANT?

[JacksBratt]

Sorry, it was not my intent to mislead.

KO, (It Is In My Humble Opinion) that the remarks I made in the post you are objecting to were my very own.

As far as my being wrong, you could also be wrong, so it's a wash isn't it?
What were actually talking about are opinions upon an event, my opinion is as valid as your so thanks for the input, 10-4, over and out.

I totally agree. We cannot say one way or another that either of us is right or wrong.

 

[GingerBeer]

Why do we have the scripture? Hmm? Are we not to learn from them?

• We have scripture in the 21st century because people made an effort to preserve the scriptures.
• Scripture is useful for teaching and for training Christians about living in righteousness.

Scripture is badly misused when it is used to manipulate people through fear of disobedience to human authority, imparting feelings that one must follow obligatory requirements laid down by human authority, and guilt about not being obedient and not having sufficient fear with respect to rules and beliefs promulgated by human authority.

The idea that watchmen (some Christians appointed to such a role?) are to guide others (Christians in some group or other?) and if either group fails they will be killed by God is an attempt to manipulate by fear, obligation, and guilt centred on teaching and practises promulgated by human authority.

 

[James Honigman]

I don't mean to say that the Lord doesn't have his use for those who focus on such things, but it seems to me much more important to develop the habit of living in Him, so that you are able to stand against what comes. If a person has the habit of disobedience, what is going to keep him from, for example, accepting the mark of the beast, even if he recognizes it for what it is? (Don't worry --yes, I am preaching against myself)

Hi Mark. If you are asking me whether we should lead our lives in righteousness my answer would be an emphatic YES. If you are asking me whether the wicked should repent and put away their wickedness my answer would be an emphatic YES. But if you are asking me who will escape Satan when we see him standing in Jerusalem claiming to be Jesus Christ I can only refer you to Revelation chapter 13 where the answer to your question is answered by the Holy Spirit. Thanks for your input.

 

[James Honigman]

Peter isn't predicting the end of the world when he says that a thousand years are as one day in the eyes of the Lord. Peter is simply telling Christians to be patient. Everything will happen in God's timing, not in ours.

Hi Dale. Yes, I agree with you, but we need to understand that our Heavenly Father teaches on many levels using the same scriptures for different believers depending mainly upon their knowledge of the scriptures at the time they are reading them. For instance, we could also say that Peter's scripture is simply pointing out that TIME in the eternity is totally different than our time in the flesh. I should also mention the 3rd chapter of 11 Peter mentions the age before this flesh age, the flesh age, and the eternity after this flesh age. Thanks for the input Dale.

 

[James Honigman]

There are several riddles and even puns in Scripture, I think. When we get there we may well smack our foreheads in amazement that we didn't see it.

I agree with that too Mark. Right now we can only see through the glass darkly, but then . . .

 

[James Honigman]

That is possible... unless their counting has a flaw. Interesting is that if you count from Adam, we run 2000 year blocks (roughly) between Adam and the time God first spoke to Abraham, and then from there about 2000 years to Yeshua's birth... and then the same to us, roughly. We are closer to 6000 years at this point. Though how close can't be determined exactly so isn't worth being dogmatic over it.

Hi Ken. Your post got me thinking about how TIME is used throughout the Bible to denote certain events in the past and how they might relate to future events. For instance, assuming Adam was created around 4,000 B.C. the 1st King of Israel, Saul, was anointed king exactly 3,000 years later, 1,000 B.C. Now consider our generation is exactly 3,000 years out from the anointing of King Saul and we could almost ask if the new and true King of Israel is coming. Thanks for your input.

 

[James Honigman]

Hi james,

Read your OP and just thought I'd offer a secondary explanation for Isaiah's words that he wrote at the direction of the Holy Spirit.


I think it worth keeping in mind, whenever we are reading the Scriptures, 'who' God is talking to and 'who' He is referencing. The old covenant writings are basically historical in nature. They tell us how God has, throughout the existence of His creation, related to His creation. While we can certainly gain understanding of God's nature in understanding much of what we find in the old covenant, I'm not particularly convinced by some of this 'new age' thinking that every word of God is meant to be taken as applying to me, or today's believers in general.

My take on this particular passage that you have referenced in Isaiah, is that these words were spoken through God's prophet, to the people of Israel. God was saying that Israel's watchmen were ignorant and dogs. We, having now the luxury of knowing how the continuing history of Israel worked out, can see that God was absolutely right about this. Israel, as a nation, was not prepared, nor did they understand when Messiah visited them. Israel was God's 'watchmen' in the days of Isaiah. Even David wrote in his prophecy of the day of Jesus' death that 'dogs have surrounded' him.

So, while I also agree that surely most of the people of the world are ignorant, in their understanding of God and His purposes, I'm not convicted that God is referencing you through Isaiah's words.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

Thanks for the input Ted. I would agree with you that much of the Old Testament is meant as an introduction to Jesus Christ and the New Testament, but we need to remember that everything that happened to Israel and the Jewish people were intended to be examples for us to accept or reject and the consequences for doing either. Thanks again, James.

 

[James Honigman]

It is man's ignorance that crucified Christ ( Forgive them Father because they not know what they do ), it is man's ignorance that causes so so much evil, ignorance is the root cause of all the suffering created by man.

Of course, one can escape ignorance but this requires a huge effort, you have to deny yourself and stop listening to your mind, which is a major shift in one's conscience, your very own identity may collapse, simply because you will understand that most of the things you do are influenced by your very mind.

Hi YesMe. It's good that we have the Holy Spirit to keep us in check, isn't it.

 

[James Honigman]

Two dogs barked. The farm owner let them out. He presumed they were investigating noises. They investigated and found no great threat, then went in again.

You ought not investigate the exact day or hour Jesus was born or died, only know he lives.

You are right dqhall, in fact scripture tells us not to. I believe the Lord did want us to know the generation though or He would not have brought it up in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. Thanks for your input.

 

[James Honigman]

Here in lies the conundrum. Why are we to take anything your propose as truth....when you preface your statements with the exclamation that you speak in ignorance?

Yeah Raymond, it's almost like "Doublespeak" from 1984. How about this excuse from the old adage: God works in mysterious ways! Just having fun, thanks for the input.

 

[James Honigman]

Is it a good thing to encourage anxiety in the Christian community with claims about God killing "watchmen" who are allegedly lazy and then adding the claim that all Christians are in danger either as watchmen who are lazy or as people who do not receive the message of the allegedly lazy watchmen?

Religion ought not be used to control people by means of manipulating fear, obligation, and guilt.

Don't be naive Ginger, religion has been used that way since time began. The post is my opinion, have another beer.

 

[miamited]

Thanks for the input Ted. I would agree with you that much of the Old Testament is meant as an introduction to Jesus Christ and the New Testament, but we need to remember that everything that happened to Israel and the Jewish people were intended to be examples for us to accept or reject and the consequences for doing either. Thanks again, James.

Hi james,

Well, you're certainly entitled to your understanding. I think how God interacted with Israel was actually, in many cases, specifically different than He truly wants us to be. With Israel, God commanded that His people actually take matters into their own hands to cleanse themselves. They were to stone adulterers and murderers and such. Jesus doesn't seem to teach that understanding. In fact, when he was faced with an adulterer, he had mercy on her and let her live. God gave some rather specific instructions to Israel as to what they could eat and what they could wear. Do you follow those instructions? I don't.

God told Noah, a gentile, that he could eat anything that moved about the earth with His blessings. Jesus said that it is not what goes into a man that makes him unclean. How do we reconcile those things with some understanding that we need to try and be like Israel because that's how God related to Israel?

I'm fairly confident that we should not try to use Israel, or much of how God related to Israel, to understand what God asks of us. God raised up the nation of Israel for His good and perfect purpose. They were a tool for His use in bringing about His perfect plan of salvation for all the world. As Jesus said, "It is finished!" The nation of Israel has done all that they were commissioned by God to do. They wrote and maintained the Scriptures and the integrity thereof. They brought in the Messiah and God even used His people to put him to death for our sin.

Now, there are still some promises that God made unto Israel that still need to come to fulfillment, but as far as their use to bring about God's good and perfect plan of salvation...It is finished! I believe that for what God called Abram, God's purposes have been well and fully completed.

So no, I don't agree that 'we need to remember that everything that happened to Israel and the Jewish people were intended to be examples for us to accept or reject and the consequences for doing either.'

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[James Honigman]

OOO! YEAH! That hits the nail on the head Elder Brother. I don't know whether you are familiar with him, but the music artist Ron Isley of the group The Isley Brother years ago wrote a song with a lyric that said essentially the same thing. It says,
You might not be in the mood
To learn what you think you know

Handmaid, You make me want to shout! But how about the Chambers brothers, they did TIME, which is more relevant to my post. Thanks for the kindness. James.

 

[James Honigman]

Hi james,

Well, you're certainly entitled to your understanding. I think how God interacted with Israel was actually, in many cases, specifically different than He truly wants us to be. With Israel, God commanded that His people actually take matters into their own hands to cleanse themselves. They were to stone adulterers and murderers and such. Jesus doesn't seem to teach that understanding. In fact, when he was faced with an adulterer, he had mercy on her and let her live. God gave some rather specific instructions to Israel as to what they could eat and what they could wear. Do you follow those instructions? I don't.

God told Noah, a gentile, that he could eat anything that moved about the earth with His blessings. Jesus said that it is not what goes into a man that makes him unclean. How do we reconcile those things with some understanding that we need to try and be like Israel because that's how God related to Israel?

I'm fairly confident that we should not try to use Israel, or much of how God related to Israel, to understand what God asks of us. God raised up the nation of Israel for His good and perfect purpose. They were a tool for His use in bringing about His perfect plan of salvation for all the world. As Jesus said, "It is finished!" The nation of Israel has done all that they were commissioned by God to do. They wrote and maintained the Scriptures and the integrity thereof. They brought in the Messiah and God even used His people to put him to death for our sin.

Now, there are still some promises that God made unto Israel that still need to come to fulfillment, but as far as their use to bring about God's good and perfect plan of salvation...It is finished! I believe that for what God called Abram, God's purposes have been well and fully completed.

So no, I don't agree that 'we need to remember that everything that happened to Israel and the Jewish people were intended to be examples for us to accept or reject and the consequences for doing either.'

God bless,
In Christ, ted

Perhaps you misunderstood Ted. I'm not saying we need to be LIKE Israel. I'm saying we are to LEARN from them. One of the main things we are to learn is fidelity and obedience to God is essential to our walk in the flesh. Do you think the Spanish Inquisition, the Russian Pogroms or Hitler's Germany taught us anything? "Now all these things happened to them for ensamples: and they are written for our own admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come." 1 Corinthians 10:11

 

[Ken Rank]

Hi Ken. Your post got me thinking about how TIME is used throughout the Bible to denote certain events in the past and how they might relate to future events. For instance, assuming Adam was created around 4,000 B.C. the 1st King of Israel, Saul, was anointed king exactly 3,000 years later, 1,000 B.C. Now consider our generation is exactly 3,000 years out from the anointing of King Saul and we could almost ask if the new and true King of Israel is coming. Thanks for your input.

I will give you a number that is very interesting. Do you know what year Abraham was born? Not in BC terms, but how many years once we start counting Adam's years? The answer is, 1948. Abraham was born one thousand nine hundred and forty eight years from the time we begin counting Adam's years. With Israel becoming a nation in 1948AD, I ask, coincidence? I think not.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Handmaid, You make me want to shout! But how about the Chambers brothers, they did TIME, which is more relevant to my post. Thanks for the kindness. James.

I am not familiar with that tune James, nor that group. But, I will look it up.

 

[miamited]

Perhaps you misunderstood Ted. I'm not saying we need to be LIKE Israel. I'm saying we are to LEARN from them. One of the main things we are to learn is fidelity and obedience to God is essential to our walk in the flesh. Do you think the Spanish Inquisition, the Russian Pogroms or Hitler's Germany taught us anything? "Now all these things happened to them for ensamples: and they are written for our own admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come." 1 Corinthians 10:11

Hi james,

I probably did.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[Mark Quayle]

Hi Mark. If you are asking me whether we should lead our lives in righteousness my answer would be an emphatic YES. If you are asking me whether the wicked should repent and put away their wickedness my answer would be an emphatic YES. But if you are asking me who will escape Satan when we see him standing in Jerusalem claiming to be Jesus Christ I can only refer you to Revelation chapter 13 where the answer to your question is answered by the Holy Spirit. Thanks for your input.

Agreed. I like the reference that says even the Elect would be deceived, if it were possible. It is even a little funny to me, the logic of the human mind that wants to say if God chooses (or causes) then we have no responsibility! The Elect will persevere, but that does not mean they have no responsibility to obedience. My family likes to say, "We do so because it IS so." --a little like, "We love him because he first loved us." It is the duty of the Elect to be wise as serpents but innocent as doves. I thank God for you, brother.

 

[keras]

I will give you a number that is very interesting. Do you know what year Abraham was born? Not in BC terms, but how many years once we start counting Adam's years? The answer is, 1948. Abraham was born one thousand nine hundred and forty eight years from the time we begin counting Adam's years. With Israel becoming a nation in 1948AD, I ask, coincidence? I think not.

Absolutely correct!
When God called him and he left Ur, he was 52; exactly 2000 years since Adam. Our calendar year - 1970.5 BC.
Then, after another 2000 years, Jesus commenced His Ministry at His Baptism, in 29.5 AD

We await the soon to come Return of Jesus, when the next 2000 year period elapses.
Then will follow the final 1000 years of the Millennium reign of King Jesus.

BTW, James; I don't see any comment from you on #79?

 

[Dale]

I will give you a number that is very interesting. Do you know what year Abraham was born? Not in BC terms, but how many years once we start counting Adam's years? The answer is, 1948. Abraham was born one thousand nine hundred and forty eight years from the time we begin counting Adam's years. With Israel becoming a nation in 1948AD, I ask, coincidence? I think not.

Ken, the problem is that according to creationists, there were only four hundred years between Noah and Abraham. If a generation is 25 years, that isn't nearly enough time for the population to be what it was at the time of Abraham. If a generation is 25 years, four hundred years is only sixteen generations.

If Noah and his children are the first generation, if the population doubled in every generation, by the sixteen generation there would still be less than 300,000 people in the world. That doesn't work.

In practice, it would be impossible for the population to double in every generation. There would always be setbacks.

I've always found creationism to be a dead end.

Here's a source that creationists believe that there were only four hundred years between Noah and Abraham.


"Approximately four hundred years elapsed from the death of Noah to the call of Abraham."

Link
https://bibleview.org/en/bible/genesis/400years/