IS CHRISTUS VICTOR THEORY TRUE?

[Si_monfaith]

If death on the cross was only to show God's love, God could have sent Michael to die. Why Jesus?

If Jesus didn't take God's wrath meant to be upon us, why did He have to die on the cross?

If God was cruel to make Jesus die for our sins, wasn't God cruel to make Jesus die to defeat sin & satan?

 

[crossnote]

If death on the cross was only to show God's love, God could have sent Michael to die. Why Jesus?

If Jesus didn't take God's wrath meant to be upon us, why did He have to die on the cross?

If God was cruel to make Jesus die for our sins, wasn't God cruel to make Jesus die to defeat sin & satan?

I believe both the substitutionary 'theory' and Christus Victor 'theory' are true. Why pit one against the other?

 

[Si_monfaith]

I believe both the substitutionary 'theory' and Christus Victor 'theory' are true. Why pit one against the other?

How can contrary ideas be both true?

 

[crossnote]

How can contrary ideas be both true?

Contrary?? Christ died as our substitute all the while stripping the enemy, sin, the world and the flesh of its power. Supplementary? Yes. / Contrary? No.

 

[hedrick]

How can contrary ideas be both true?

Various ideas about how the atonement works can all be true. They don't contradict each other. The Bible talks about it in many different terms as well.

 

[Albion]

These two are mutually exclusive, however.

 

[hedrick]

If death on the cross was only to show God's love, God could have sent Michael to die. Why Jesus?

The point was to reconcile us to God. There are varying ideas of the atonement, but in almost all of them God takes responsibility for doing this and accepts the cost himself.

If Jesus didn't take God's wrath meant to be upon us, why did He have to die on the cross?

From the point of view of Christus Victor, Christ's death and resurrection abolished the power of sin, including the wrath that results from it. Paul says that wrath comes from the Law, and so abolition of the Law and that whole system of law, guilt and punishment, removes wrath.

If God was cruel to make Jesus die for our sins, wasn't God cruel to make Jesus die to defeat sin & satan?

It's not cruel for someone to suffer in order to help someone else. If it was God himself acting through Christ, than God is voluntarily accepting the suffering.

 

[hedrick]

These two are mutually exclusive, however.

Here's an attempt to combine them: Propitiation as the Ground for Christus Victor

 

[Si_monfaith]

Contrary?? Christ died as our substitute all the while stripping the enemy, sin, the world and the flesh of its power. Supplementary? Yes. / Contrary? No.

So you agree the problem was primarily moral and secondarily one involving the defeat of sin, satan & death?

 

[Si_monfaith]

Various ideas about how the atonement works can all be true. They don't contradict each other. The Bible talks about it in many different terms as well.

So what is the primary problem? Moral or kidnapping?

 

[Si_monfaith]

The point was to reconcile us to God. There are varying ideas of the atonement, but in almost all of them God takes responsibility for doing this and accepts the cost himself.

From the point of view of Christus Victor, Christ's death and resurrection abolished the power of sin, including the wrath that results from it. Paul says that wrath comes from the Law, and so abolition of the Law and that whole system of law, guilt and punishment, removes wrath.

It's not cruel for someone to suffer in order to help someone else. If it was God himself acting through Christ, than God is voluntarily accepting the suffering.

God takes responsibility for doing this and accepts the cost himself.

Why Jesus? Why not someone else?

Christ's death and resurrection abolished the power of sin, including the wrath that results from

If Jesus can forgive sin without Christ's death by simply speaking a word, why did He have to die to abolish sin?

It's not cruel for someone to suffer in order to help someone else

So you agree it's not cruel either to place our wrath upon Jesus?

 

[crossnote]

So you agree the problem was primarily moral and secondarily one involving the defeat of sin, satan & death?

I believe they are somewhat interrelated...

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. (1Co 15:55-56)

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. (Col 2:14-15)

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: (Rom 8:3)

Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
(Rom 7:4)

 

[crossnote]

So you agree it's not cruel either to place our wrath upon Jesus?

We didn't place our wrath on Jesus...rather the Father placed His wrath on Jesus...yet...

Isaiah 53:10 (KJV) Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Acts 4:27-28 (KJV) For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

 

[Si_monfaith]

I believe they are somewhat interrelated...

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. (1Co 15:55-56)

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. (Col 2:14-15)

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: (Rom 8:3)

Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
(Rom 7:4)

Are you avoiding to quote verses with reference to the primary problem which is moral?

Is satan equal to God?

Didn't God plan atonement before He created the world as per 1Peter1:18-20?

 

[crossnote]

Are you avoiding to quote verses with reference to the primary problem which is moral?

Is satan equal to God?

Didn't God plan atonement before He created the world as per 1Peter1:18-20?

You don't need to judge my motives, I told you what I believed and gave Scriptural backing. You may not agree, and that's fine.
satan is light years from being equal to God.
Yes God planned the atonement way back when but He also ordained it's means and consequences.

 

[Si_monfaith]

You don't need to judge my motives, I told you what I believed and gave Scriptural backing. You may not agree, and that's fine.
satan is light years from being equal to God.
Yes God planned the atonement way back when but He also ordained it's means and consequences.

If God had predetermined redemption before He created humans, defeating satan must be secondary to Jesus taking God's wrath that was upon us, on Him.

The bane of CVT is it's denial of the truth God was angry over Adam Eve when He cursed them.

 

[fhansen]

If death on the cross was only to show God's love, God could have sent Michael to die. Why Jesus?

If Jesus didn't take God's wrath meant to be upon us, why did He have to die on the cross?

If God was cruel to make Jesus die for our sins, wasn't God cruel to make Jesus die to defeat sin & satan?

Jesus IS God. So God was willing to suffer an excruciatingly humiliating and painful death in human flesh if that’s what it takes to convince us of His goodness, trustworthiness, and love, if that’s what it takes for us to turn from darkness and begin to place love at the forefront ourselves. So that we may know the true God IOW, and follow Him, because He’s really worth it and worthy of our love, not just our fear. And His sacrificial act of love is crowned and completed by the resurrection that triumphed over His death, and so over our death, so we may know the full depth of His intention for us, and so of His goodness.

The God of Christianity is, amazingly, humble, and yet could squash us like a bug. But He won’t; He doesn’t condemn us; He lets us do that for ourselves to the extent that we choose pride and selfishness, covetousness and darkness over Him, over love. So the cross always stands as a point that we can navigate to, towards the true God, worthy of our love and worship-or not.

So the sin that opposes and viciously and violently and gladly killed God; the anger, enmity, hatred, selfishness, and darkness, is centered in man, not Him. And He seeks to overcome it the way Jesus told us to overcome it, with love, in His case fully and dramatically taking on and directly experiencing while forgiving that hatred and violence, that sin, rather than by forcing it out of existence. He's sought to draw man to righteousness, to Him, beginning already in Eden. The Cross is His ultimate act; it's what His love "looks like".

God hates evil, as love naturally opposes evil. But he's not threatened by it; He's always in control. He allows disobedience wrought by human pride and the evil it results in for now, so that we may ultimately choose between the two, good and evil, with His ongoing help. And He still loves man even in his sin, as the cross demonstrates.

 

[crossnote]

If God had predetermined redemption before He created humans, defeating satan must be secondary to Jesus taking God's wrath that was upon us, on Him.
The bane of CVT is it's denial of the truth God was angry over Adam Eve when He cursed them.

If God prerdetermined redemption then He also predetermined satan's defeat. Or is time only linear in God's plan?
What is CVT? If it refers to Cornelius VanTil, I am not a presuppositionalist. God was angry yet at the same time He provided the promise of redemption in Gen 3:15

 

[hedrick]

So what is the primary problem? Moral or kidnapping?

Different ideas of the atonement imply different diagnoses. Penal substitution implies a moral problem. We are sinners and God can't accept us as such. Some versions of Christus Victor imply that we are captives of sin and need to be rescued.

It is surely possible to maintain both.

Paul seems to see death as the primary result of the fall. That includes physical death, but seems to go further than that. In Rom 6 he see us as participated in Christ's death and resurrection, and therefore being rescued from sin and death. I guess that's at least related to Christus Victor.

Jesus saw his death as a covenant sacrifice to establish the new covenant of Jer 31:31, per Ex 24:8. Heb 9 and 10 use this explanation, with some additions. This seems closest to moral example, in that the purpose is to transform people. But I think it's more than example. Jewish understanding of the suffering of an innocent person (Is 53, though it developed further during the intertestamental period) seems to assume that the person is acting on behalf of the people. I think this is implicit in Ex 24:8. If you want to define a problem that this is solving, I guess I'd say that knowing what God wants isn't enough without a heart that is capable of doing it.

 

[Si_monfaith]

Jesus IS God. So God was willing to suffer an excruciatingly humiliating and painful death in human flesh if that’s what it takes to convince us of His goodness, trustworthiness, and love, if that’s what it takes for us to turn from darkness and begin to place love at the forefront ourselves. So that we may know the true God IOW, and follow Him, because He’s really worth it and worthy of our love, not just our fear. And His sacrificial act of love is crowned and completed by the resurrection that triumphed over His death, and so over our death, so we may know the full depth of His intention for us, and so of His goodness.

The God of Christianity is, amazingly, humble, and yet could squash us like a bug. But He won’t; He doesn’t condemn us; He lets us do that for ourselves to the extent that we choose pride and selfishness, covetousness and darkness over Him, over love. So the cross always stands as a point that we can navigate to, towards the true God, worthy of our love and worship-or not.

So the sin that opposes and viciously and violently and gladly killed God; the anger, enmity, hatred, selfishness, and darkness, is centered in man, not Him. And He seeks to overcome it the way Jesus told us to overcome it, with love, in His case fully and dramatically taking on and directly experiencing while forgiving that hatred and violence, that sin, rather than by forcing it out of existence. He's sought to draw man to righteousness, to Him, beginning already in Eden. The Cross is His ultimate act; it's what His love "looks like".

God hates evil, as love naturally opposes evil. But he's not threatened by it; He's always in control. He allows disobedience wrought by human pride and the evil it results in for now, so that we may ultimately choose between the two, good and evil, with His ongoing help. And He still loves man even in his sin, as the cross demonstrates.

So the sin that opposes and viciously and violently and gladly killed God;

If Adam hadn't started to have the forbidden knowledge of good & evil, will there be death in this world? If there be no death, could Jesus have died on the cross?

the anger, enmity, hatred, selfishness, and darkness, is centered in man, not Him.

Did Jesus die because of these behaviors? Why didn't Jesus forgive these behaviors instead of dying on the cross?

God hates evil, as love naturally opposes

Is God happy when humans do good? If yes, isn't He angry when humans do evil?