Charlie24

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Revelation 5:5

King James Version
And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion (Jesus) of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

The physical promised land ...

Psalm 25:13
His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed (all in Him) shall inherit the earth.

Psalm 37:9,11,22,29,34
For evildoers shall be cut of (the lost) but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth…

The promised land is the earth (when made new) and His people, His Israel, His church (all believers) shall dwell with Him in the New Jerusalem.

Yes ... there is now spiritual Israel (all believers in Christ) ... the physical promised land happens at the full completion of His plan.

Revelation - Chapter 21



Yes ... and that is what the poster is bringing forth ... we are all Israel spiritually and the physical (New Jerusalem) happens when we are on the new earth and dwelling physically with Him.

The problem with discussing this subject is the space it takes to describe it.
I'm going to start a thread on this in the near future with an attempt to condense it but yet be understood.

To the point of "spiritual Israel" this phrase is not found in scripture. Problem #1.

Paul describes 3 groups to what we call "spiritual Israel."

1) The church-- the spiritual seed of Abraham.

2) Israel-- the believing remnant of Israel.

3) The church and Israel in a package under the new covenant.

The understanding of the above is the problem and has to be pointed out in context to Paul's writings.

That is not an easy task to tackle. But it can be done!

Problem #2 comes in with all the beliefs that the 1000 year reign of Christ is not literal but spiritual.

Problem #3 and so on will take their natural courses and little will be accomplished.

But the work is worth it for a few and I will be working on it.
 
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Hazelelponi

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YesheYahu (Isaiah) 43:
11 I, even I, am YHWH; and beside Me there is no savior.

YesheYahu (Isaiah) 45:21-25
21 Tell and bring them near; yes let them take counsel together: who has declared this from ancient time? who has told it from that time? have not I YHWH? and there is no Elohiym else beside Me; a just Elohiym and a Savior; there is none beside Me.

22 Look to Me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am Elohiym, and there is none else.

23 I have sworn by Myself, the word is gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

24 Surely, shall one say, in YHWH I have righteousness and strength: even to Him shall men come; and all that are incensed against Him shall be ashamed.

25 In YHWH shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

Hoshea (Hosea) 13:4
4 Yet I am YHWH, your Elohiym from the land of Egypt, and you shall know no ‘god’ but Me: for there is no savior besides Me.

YesheYahu (Isaiah) 12:2
2 Behold, Elohiym is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for Yahh YHWH is my strength and my song; He is also my salvation


(English alterations)

YHWH is the name of the Father and Elohim of our Messiah. Sorry but I won't budge when it comes to taking his name in vain.


No I understand some people are strict about what they refer to God as. I'm personally under no conviction other than I have a weird issue about not using the Arabic word for God, but that's very personal because I see the words to address different God's (and I know most Arabic speaking Christians don't have any issue with that, it's just a personal hang up for me..)

Thank you for your accommodation for me.. :) God bless you..
 
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BrotherD

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I asked where did Jesus say..

BTW, the context of that passage is talking about Israel and not heathen nations. in fact, the whole chapter of hosea 2 is about Israel's punishment and redemption. also, the romans 9 passage is referencing hosea 1:10 as well.

1 corinthians 12:2 also comments on how those who are israelites can be called gentiles/pegans if they go astray unto idols.


but again, where does Jesus say that he was going to save other nations other than Israel?

1 Corinthians 3:10-11. the apostles aren't going to establish another foundation other than the one Jesus laid.

I am confused. Was Jesus purpose not to save the world basically other nations to bring them into the fold of Israel?
 
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BrotherD

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To understand the truth of "We are Israel," we must first understand the truth of "Israel is the Messiah," and the fact we are not the Messiah; we are the body of Christ, not Christ. In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile

I am confused. Some prophecies can also have dual meanings. I thought the OP was pretty straightforward. God's people is Israel and no matter Jew or Greek you have to accept the blood of Christ and enter into the covenant he made with us.
 
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dqhall

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(CLV) Jer 31:31
Behold, the days are coming, averring is Yahweh, when I will contract a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

From which house are you in contract with YHWH?
God is spirit, neither descended from Judah or the lost tribes of Israel. Citizenship in Israel is not a guarantee of God's acceptance. Jesus denounced some of the Jewish towns where he preached as no better than the predominately Gentile cities of Tyre and Sidon along the Lebanese coast.

Matthew 11:20 (WEB) Then he began to denounce the cities in which most of his mighty works had been done, because they didn’t repent. 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon which were done in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23 You, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, you will go down to Hades. For if the mighty works had been done in Sodom which were done in you, it would have remained until today. 24 But I tell you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom on the day of judgment, than for you.”
 
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Josheb

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I am confused. Some prophecies can also have dual meanings. I thought the OP was pretty straightforward. God's people is Israel and no matter Jew or Greek you have to accept the blood of Christ and enter into the covenant he made with us.
Well... at the risk of provoking some and sending the op off-topic.....

Generally speaking, people understand the "near/far" aspect of prophesy. There was a near application of the prophets' declarations relevant to the original audience to whom the prophesies were first spoken, and there was a far-distant fulfillment to be realized when the Messiah came. I you, me, or anyone reads enough of a prophet's passage we will see there is invariably some kind of "marker" informing us the passage has messianic significance.

The Messiah came in the first century.

So most of the prophesies came true with the incarnation and the events directly related to the incarnation, Calvary, Pentecost and the first century judgment. To say those OT prophesies that were fulfilled in the NT-era will have another fulfillment is to assert a "near/far/far" paradigm.

And that is simply not what mainstream orthodox Christianity has had much of. It is a very popular unstated practice nowadays within a certain unnamed theological perspective but it is not what the church has taught historically.

For example, in Acts 2 Peter's sermon tells us Joel's prophesy and the prophesies about the Davidic throne were fulfilled with Christ's ascension and enthronement in heaven. That is literally what Peter reports. By implication, this means the Joel prophesy was fulfilled and there is no reason to expect it to be fulfilled twice. It had it's OT aspects and it's NT aspect. The matter is resolved. We see the same thing in Acts 15 when Peter takes Paul before the leaders in Jerusalem. James declares Paul's ministry to the Gentiles a fulfillment of Amos' prophesies. Joel and Amos are fulfilled. There was an OT aspect intended for the people of each prophet's day and there was a fulfillment yet to be realized with the coming of the Messiah.... who came in the first century!

If Jesus, the angel(s), and the NT writers hadn't said he was coming back the matter would be decided and we'd scramble to figure how everything in all its diversity and mystery was fulfilled in the first century. Blessedly, God was gracious enough to give us additional markers so what has happened and what is yet to come can be discriminated. The problem with/for some is the NT markers (like the two I just mentioned) are often neglected or ignored. You watch and see; folks are gonna take issue with what I've just written even though you, me, anyone can open their Bible and blatantly see for themselves and objectively verify the veracity of what I've posted.

So... if and when you find scripture assert a near/far/far schema then you can accept and believe it and apply it to that specific prophesy. Otherwise, it's a near/far condition and it either had its second fulfillment in Christ's incarnation or may yet to happen.

The problem then is the fact the canon is closed. There will be no more inspired scripture. There won't be any new books added to the Bible. This leaves certain far-futurists relying on the position, "Everyone will just know that what happens is the intended fulfillment." That has not worked out so well over the last 19 centuries, especially not the last century and a half. Any number of folks have made false prognostications claiming to have heard from God. Most of them end up cult leaders, but not all.
 
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HARK!

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God is spirit, neither descended from Judah or the lost tribes of Israel. Citizenship in Israel is not a guarantee of God's acceptance.

Hebrew names are "sentence names." Hebrew names have meaning. Israel means struggles/wrestles with El. I'm thankful that you understand that Israel comes from YHWH, and not the other way around. Abraham was not of the tribe of Israel. Yahshua rebuked some of those who claimed that they were blood relatives of Abraham. He said that HaSatan was their father. This makes it clear that the promise to Abraham is not genetic, It's spiritual.

Therefore your blood heritage is no guarantee to the Kingdom. If YHWH accepts you; you are of spiritual Israel. Yahshua was commissioned for you. If YHWH accepts you; he will not withdraw from you, your inheritance as a child of Abraham.
 
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S.O.J.I.A.

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I am confused. Was Jesus purpose not to save the world basically other nations to bring them into the fold of Israel?
well...was it? did Messiah say it was? if He did, where did he say it?

if He didn't say it, then you need to begin questioning your understanding of things(namely the epistles).
 
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BrotherD

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Well... at the risk of provoking some and sending the op off-topic.....

Generally speaking, people understand the "near/far" aspect of prophesy. There was a near application of the prophets' declarations relevant to the original audience to whom the prophesies were first spoken, and there was a far-distant fulfillment to be realized when the Messiah came. I you, me, or anyone reads enough of a prophet's passage we will see there is invariably some kind of "marker" informing us the passage has messianic significance.

The Messiah came in the first century.

So most of the prophesies came true with the incarnation and the events directly related to the incarnation, Calvary, Pentecost and the first century judgment. To say those OT prophesies that were fulfilled in the NT-era will have another fulfillment is to assert a "near/far/far" paradigm.

And that is simply not what mainstream orthodox Christianity has had much of. It is a very popular unstated practice nowadays within a certain unnamed theological perspective but it is not what the church has taught historically.

For example, in Acts 2 Peter's sermon tells us Joel's prophesy and the prophesies about the Davidic throne were fulfilled with Christ's ascension and enthronement in heaven. That is literally what Peter reports. By implication, this means the Joel prophesy was fulfilled and there is no reason to expect it to be fulfilled twice. It had it's OT aspects and it's NT aspect. The matter is resolved. We see the same thing in Acts 15 when Peter takes Paul before the leaders in Jerusalem. James declares Paul's ministry to the Gentiles a fulfillment of Amos' prophesies. Joel and Amos are fulfilled. There was an OT aspect intended for the people of each prophet's day and there was a fulfillment yet to be realized with the coming of the Messiah.... who came in the first century!

If Jesus, the angel(s), and the NT writers hadn't said he was coming back the matter would be decided and we'd scramble to figure how everything in all its diversity and mystery was fulfilled in the first century. Blessedly, God was gracious enough to give us additional markers so what has happened and what is yet to come can be discriminated. The problem with/for some is the NT markers (like the two I just mentioned) are often neglected or ignored. You watch and see; folks are gonna take issue with what I've just written even though you, me, anyone can open their Bible and blatantly see for themselves and objectively verify the veracity of what I've posted.

So... if and when you find scripture assert a near/far/far schema then you can accept and believe it and apply it to that specific prophesy. Otherwise, it's a near/far condition and it either had its second fulfillment in Christ's incarnation or may yet to happen.

The problem then is the fact the canon is closed. There will be no more inspired scripture. There won't be any new books added to the Bible. This leaves certain far-futurists relying on the position, "Everyone will just know that what happens is the intended fulfillment." That has not worked out so well over the last 19 centuries, especially not the last century and a half. Any number of folks have made false prognostications claiming to have heard from God. Most of them end up cult leaders, but not all.

Yeah i kind of see what you mean. Sorry if sometimes i don't understand. I am not the most learned individual. I believe God has made things simple and sometimes we can read too much into things. Not saying you are. I get baffled sometimes with all the different terminology and classes that people say certain things belong in. I just go by the scripture. It has an answer for everything. Thank you for taking the time out to answer me.
 
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HARK!

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well...was it? did Messiah say it was? if He did, where did he say it?


(CLV) 1Ti 2:3
for this is ideal and welcome in the sight of our Saviour, YHWH,

(CLV) 1Ti 2:4
Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth.
 
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BrotherD

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well...was it? did Messiah say it was? if He did, where did he say it?

if He didn't say it, then you need to begin questioning your understanding of things(namely the epistles).

I believe what was stated in the OP was clear. We are part of Israel. The Spirit of God led these men to write those scriptures, i believe they are saying we are God's people which is Israel. Did you disagree with anything in the OP?
 
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S.O.J.I.A.

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(CLV) 1Ti 2:3
for this is ideal and welcome in the sight of our Saviour, YHWH,

(CLV) 1Ti 2:4
Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth.

yet again, nothing.

it should be easy for you guys to quote from Jesus himself saying he wanted to save all nations. the apostles are not going to contradict Christ who said out of His own mouth that he came for Israel only.

the passage you quoted is speaking of praying for people of all stripes and positions in life. rich or poor, in authority or under authority. we are not to discriminate based on class.
 
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S.O.J.I.A.

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I believe what was stated in the OP was clear. We are part of Israel. The Spirit of God led these men to write those scriptures, i believe they are saying we are God's people which is Israel. Did you disagree with anything in the OP?
let's not make this about me and what I agree with or what I think. this is about what scripture has proclaimed. the Word of God verses the traditions of men.

has what we have come to learn actually biblical?
 
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eleos1954

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The problem with discussing this subject is the space it takes to describe it.
I'm going to start a thread on this in the near future with an attempt to condense it but yet be understood.

To the point of "spiritual Israel" this phrase is not found in scripture. Problem #1.

Paul describes 3 groups to what we call "spiritual Israel."

1) The church-- the spiritual seed of Abraham.

2) Israel-- the believing remnant of Israel.

3) The church and Israel in a package under the new covenant.

The understanding of the above is the problem and has to be pointed out in context to Paul's writings.

That is not an easy task to tackle. But it can be done!

Problem #2 comes in with all the beliefs that the 1000 year reign of Christ is not literal but spiritual.

Problem #3 and so on will take their natural courses and little will be accomplished.

But the work is worth it for a few and I will be working on it.

There aren't any problems ... EVERYTHING (all covenants, all promises, all prophesy) ARE fulfilled through/by Jesus. Thank you Jesus! and AMEN!

It's all about Jesus ... always has been and always will be into eternity.

Romans 9:6-8, 23-26: "It is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all Israelites truly belong to Israel, and not all of Abraham's children are his true descendants: but 'It is through Isaac that descendants shall be named for you.' This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as descendants." "And what if he [God] has done so in order to make known the riches of his glory for the objects of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory -- including us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea, 'Those who were not my people I will call "my people," and her who was not beloved I will call "beloved,"' 'And in the very place where it was said to them "You are not my people," there they shall be called children of the living God.'"
 
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Josheb

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Yeah i kind of see what you mean. Sorry if sometimes i don't understand. I am not the most learned individual. I believe God has made things simple and sometimes we can read too much into things. Not saying you are. I get baffled sometimes with all the different terminology and classes that people say certain things belong in. I just go by the scripture. It has an answer for everything. Thank you for taking the time out to answer me.
And thank you for the kind words. Happy to walk with you through the scriptures, one verse at a time, any time you like. Just let me know.
 
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Dkh587

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yet again, nothing.

it should be easy for you guys to quote from Jesus himself saying he wanted to save all nations. the apostles are not going to contradict Christ who said out of His own mouth that he came for Israel only.

the passage you quoted is speaking of praying for people of all stripes and positions in life. rich or poor, in authority or under authority. we are not to discriminate based on class.

here’s a messianic scripture from Isaiah, where it records a conversation between God telling the Messiah that he will restore the tribes of Jacob and the remnant of Israel, and also be a light to the Gentiles and be God’s salvation to the ends of the earth(an idiom referring to Gentiles)

it even starts out with the Messiah speaking to the Gentiles(the isles, people from afar).

Isaiah 49:1-6
Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; Yahweh hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.

And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;

And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with Yahweh, and my work with my God.

And now, saith Yahweh that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of Yahweh, and my God shall be my strength.

And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

the Messiah was sent to Israel, to make a new covenant, which Gentiles who repent and believe and obey Messiah & God can be a part of.

The Messiah even calls himself a light come into the world, just like the prophecy in Isaiah 49 said he would be:

John 12:46
I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

It is true that the Messiah was not sent to any other nation - that does not mean that people from other nations cannot follow the Messiah and join his people and become part of them.

Peter confirms this in Acts 10:34
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

God himself is recorded speaking to the Gentiles and telling them to look to him & be saved:

Isaiah 45:22
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
 
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here’s a messianic scripture from Isaiah, where it records a conversation between God telling the Messiah that he will restore the tribes of Jacob and the remnant of Israel, and also be a light to the Gentiles and be God’s salvation to the ends of the earth(an idiom referring to Gentiles)

it even starts out with the Messiah speaking to the Gentiles(the isles, people from afar).

Isaiah 49:1-6


the Messiah was sent to Israel, to make a new covenant, which Gentiles who repent and believe and obey Messiah & God can be a part of.

The Messiah even calls himself a light come into the world, just like the prophecy in Isaiah 49 said he would be:

John 12:46


It is true that the Messiah was not sent to any other nation - that does not mean that people from other nations cannot follow the Messiah and join his people and become part of them.

Peter confirms this in Acts 10:34
still no direct quote from Jesus during his earthly ministry that he would save other nations in light of direct quotes to the contrary.

being a light to the gentiles is being a guide to them, an example of righteousness. similar to all the nations of the earth being blessed in genesis 12. Israel is(or is meant to be) an example of righteousness and a benefit to the nations they are scattered in. messiah's salvation will indeed be to the ends of the earth because this is where Israel has been scattered(james 1:1, Deuteronomy 28:64).

it is true that God is no respecter of persons which is why being an ethnic Israelite does not guarantee salvation just as romans 2:28-29 and romans 9:6-8 state. still, as Messiah proclaimed, salvation is of the jews(john 4:22). they are the only ones who are eligible.



matthew 15:21-28

this is a very interesting exchange between Jesus and a woman of a heathen nation.

this woman cries out for Him to heal her daughter and Jesus at first totally ignores her. this is already a strange response from someone who supposedly came to bring salvation to all peoples. the disciples tried to send this woman away because she kept on after Jesus to where He finally responds, "I was not sent to anyone but the lost sheep of the house of Israel". again, why does He say this to a woman who is only asking Messiah to heal her demon possessed daughter and has committed no sin? Jesus had every intent to disregard this woman. despite this, the woman persists in getting Jesus to help her where Jesus finally responds "it is not good to take the children's bread and give it to the dogs". WOW! seriously? he just called this woman who bowed down at this man's feet and worshipped him a dog? Jesus basically told this woman "get lost you worthless piece of trash".

the woman agrees with him that she is nothing more than a dog and reasons that even dogs take the crumbs that fall off the master's table. by that admission Jesus then heals her daughter, but there's nothing about either of them being saved. point being, this is an outrageous and bizarre response from someone who supposedly has every intent to save all people to a woman who committed no sin and showed much faith in Messiah that He could heal her daughter.
 
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