Misogyny is disgusting

[pleinmont]

The traditional roles aren't to blame. That said I agree that men generally don't understand their responsibility as husbands and fathers.

Of course they are to blame. Traditional roles went out with the ark, imo.

 

[Paidiske]

Not at all. Much work can be done by either. The question is whether it should be. Why do you think so many working women are fighting for parental leave? What's wrong with daycare centers raising our kids?

a) Parental leave is just that; leave. It is a period of absence from work. Women are fighting for parental leave not so that they don't have to work, but so that they can have a job to come back to.

b) "Daycare centers raising our kids" is both emotive and inaccurate. Most people who use daycare use it for perhaps one or two days a week, while working part time or combining daycare with other forms of kinship care. Those smaller blocks of time have been shown to be very beneficial in early education.

Is there a problem when someone has their child in daycare from 7am to 6pm, five days a week? Maybe. But let's be honest enough to admit that isn't actually how daycare is generally used.

As for men not understanding their role as husbands and fathers, well... I think it's very true that some men come into marriage not knowing how to be part of a team, and support their wives as much as they expect to be supported.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

b) "Daycare centers raising our kids" is both emotive and inaccurate. Most people who use daycare use it for perhaps one or two days a week, while working part time or combining daycare with other forms of kinship care. Those smaller blocks of time have been shown to be very beneficial in early education.

I think that's just putting a smiley face on it. Kids would benefit more by being cared for by family when they are very young.

Is there a problem when someone has their child in daycare from 7am to 6pm, five days a week? Maybe. But let's be honest enough to admit that isn't actually how daycare is generally used.

Daycare is where many dump their kids so they can pursue a career.

As for men not understanding their role as husbands and fathers, well... I think it's very true that some men come into marriage not knowing how to be part of a team, and support their wives as much as they expect to be supported.

Perhaps men want to be the team leader in the family.

 

[PloverWing]

I think that's just putting a smiley face on it. Kids would benefit more by being cared for by family when they are very young.

Note that we're no longer talking about gender. If the goal is to have kids cared for by family, then that could be accomplished by a stay-at-home dad, or both parents taking parental leave, or both parents having flexible work hours, or a variety of similar arrangements.

 

[Paidiske]

I think that's just putting a smiley face on it. Kids would benefit more by being cared for by family when they are very young.

My point was that characterising most people's use of daycare as "daycare centres raising our kids" was inaccurate.

Daycare is where many dump their kids so they can pursue a career.

Most households need people to work. Are you also criticising the men who "dump" their kids in daycare to pursue a career, or only the women?

Perhaps men want to be the team leader in the family.

Not every want is appropriate or right or healthy, or should be pandered to.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

My point was that characterising most people's use of daycare as "daycare centres raising our kids" was inaccurate.

Of course the effects don't show up immediately, but they do show up. Our kids are dying from a thousand cuts. Daycare is one of them.

Most households need people to work. Are you also criticising the men who "dump" their kids in daycare to pursue a career, or only the women?

Both have turned their kids over to strangers to raise.

Not every want is appropriate or right or healthy, or should be pandered to.

Of course. In my case I don't 'want' the leadership role in my family, I just naturally assume it is my responsibility. But I have no problem with other arrangements in other families, as long as it produces good results.

You seem to be saying that it is imperative that men do not lead their families. How biblical is that?

 

[Paidiske]

Our kids are dying from a thousand cuts. Daycare is one of them.

Well, to establish that first you'd have to demonstrate that our kids are "dying." While there are always kids in bad circumstances, on the whole, from what I can see - through church, through my daughter's school, through the community in general - most kids are thriving.

You seem to be saying that it is imperative that men do not lead their families. How biblical is that?

Not exactly. I'm saying it's imperative that men don't have power over their families in an unhealthy way, which is what so much of the rhetoric of "leadership" seems to boil down to.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Well, to establish that first you'd have to demonstrate that our kids are "dying." While there are always kids in bad circumstances, on the whole, from what I can see - through church, through my daughter's school, through the community in general - most kids are thriving.

Good to hear. American kids have lots of problems.

Not exactly. I'm saying it's imperative that men don't have power over their families in an unhealthy way, which is what so much of the rhetoric of "leadership" seems to boil down to.

Perhaps daycare has something to do with that. Daycare basically reinforces matriarchal leadership.

 

[Paidiske]

Daycare basically reinforces matriarchal leadership.

Interesting claim. Why do you say that?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Interesting claim. Why do you say that?

Most daycare workers who care for the kids are women, as are most elementary school teachers. Young kids are under female 'custody and control' (the legal term) almost exclusively in their younger years. "The hand that rocks the cradle" has an iron grip on our kids minds.

 

[Paidiske]

Most daycare workers who care for the kids are women, as are most elementary school teachers. Young kids are under female 'custody and control' (the legal term) almost exclusively in their younger years. "The hand that rocks the cradle" has an iron grip on our kids minds.

I wonder how free those workers really feel to exercise "leadership" in that setting.

That said, if you're concerned, we can always encourage more men into those roles.

 

[muichimotsu]

I agree. But the biggest problem is the lack of love.

Love is a whole dissertation worth of material practically in terms of how it manifests and how someone can think they're exercising love when they're doing something entirely different, we have to be willing to be corrected in terms of traditions we think are rooted in love or ideas of love that we think are beneficial but may not be

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I wonder how free those workers really feel to exercise "leadership" in that setting.

Care and custody is the leadership role, whether they are aware of it or not.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Love is a whole dissertation worth of material practically in terms of how it manifests and how someone can think they're exercising love when they're doing something entirely different, we have to be willing to be corrected in terms of traditions we think are rooted in love or ideas of love that we think are beneficial but may not be

Love is largely good judgment, starting with oneself.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Of course they are to blame. Traditional roles went out with the ark, imo.

Noah's ark, or the Ark of the Covenant?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

a) Parental leave is just that; leave. It is a period of absence from work. Women are fighting for parental leave not so that they don't have to work, but so that they can have a job to come back to.

That might work in some businesses, but in others it can be quite problematic.

 

[Robban]

Noah's ark, or the Ark of the Covenant?

"Ark" can also mean "Word".

In times of storm, go into the ark7word until the storm has passed.

Alternative,
the storm never passes, it is ups and downs of life,

therefore go into the ark/word and stay there,

safe and secure.

 

[muichimotsu]

Love is largely good judgment, starting with oneself.

Yet it doesn't ignore perspective related to others either, right?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Yet it doesn't ignore perspective related to others either, right?

Most problems have obvious solutions and thus don't require a broad range of perspectives.

 

[Ophiolite]

That might work in some businesses, but in others it can be quite problematic.

Problems that can be solved if we are prepared to adopt the notion that the the ultimate function of a business should be to benefit all stakeholders and that certainly includes the workers. It may raise the costs and prices of that business, but adds to the well being of the society.