gentiles to keep from profaning the Sabbath -- even in the OT Sabbath made for mankind

[BobRyan]

Bob Ryan wrote:
God says specifically that the gentiles are blessed when they "keep from profaning the Sabbath" - which means there is such a thing as profaning the Sabbath for gentiles and the ones blessed in Isaiah 56 are the ones not doing that.

True. I did write that

God never says to them "I applaud you for profaning the Sabbath" or "well done in desecrating the Sabbath" ... not even once in all of scripture.

Isaiah wrote this --

6 “Also the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
To minister to Him, and to love the name of the Lord,
To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning the Sabbath
And holds fast My covenant;
7 Even those I will bring to My holy mountain
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar;
For My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples.” NASB


Is 56
And foreigners who bind themselves to the Lord
to minister to him,
to love the name of the Lord,
and to be his servants,
all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it
and who hold fast to my covenant—
7 these I will bring to my holy mountain
and give them joy in my house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and sacrifices
will be accepted on my altar;
for my house will be called
a house of prayer for all nations.”

After analyzing verses 6 and 7 I have come to the conclusion that Isaiah wrote there something like he did in chapter 65 where he wrote glimpses of the new Earth.

That is chapter 56... not chapter 65. And unlike Chapter 66:23 where we have the context of the New Heavens and New Earth (also quoted by John in Rev 21) chapter 66 has ALL mankind in obedience and keeping the Sabbath for all eternity.

But in Isaiah 56:6-7 it is local context only - it does not claim that all gentiles .. even the pagans are engaged in Sabbath keeping.

In the Isaiah 56 local context - animal sacrifices are in use for forgiveness of sins. That's how it was - before the cross.

 

[Copperhead]

But this "joining" was in regards to in the land of Israel. Of course, in the land, there would be adherence to the national law of the Shabbat. Just as is being implemented today in modern Israel. But there is nothing that suggests the Shabbat observance of the Mosaic Law in incumbent upon gentiles who come to faith outside of the land.

James was pretty clear in Acts 15. And the dispute arose again in Acts 21. Those that are born under the Mosaic Law were to continue to observe it, but gentiles that were not born under the Mosaic Law are not required to. Paul also emphasizes that in his various letters to the Colossians, Galatians, etc.

A gentile can observe Shabbat if they feel inclined to do so, but those who do not are not under any judgment or condemnation for not doing so. As James pointed out in Acts 15, the Noahide Law is the standard for gentiles coming into the faith. Most of which encompasses the 10 commandments except Shabbat, which was given specifically to Israel in the Mosaic Law.

And since it is part of the Mosaic Law, if one is going to make it a requirement, then they must also put themselves under the entire Mosaic Law, circumcision and all of it. No smorgasbord nonsense of picking and choosing.

 

[Bob S]

Hi Copperhead, I have one problem. I am of the understanding that the Sinai covenant expired because Israel didn't keep the requirements of the covenant. How can people live under two differing covenants at the same time?

If the words of the covenants are the same as some indicate how do they justify living without the sacrificial system? Where in scripture does God give anyone the right to remove even one jot of the Law?

 

[Copperhead]

There are several covenants. The New Covenant only supersedes the Mosaic Covenant, and both are made with Jacob/Israel. One written on stone, one written on hearts. Never does it say the New Covenant take away the identifying signs of the Mosaic Covenant. Paul is even told by James to make the Nazarite offering at the Temple to prove he did not teach Hebrews in the diaspora to forsake the Mosaic Covenant (Acts 21)

the Adamic covenant became null when Adam fell. The Abrahamic Covenant is unconditional and in full force. The Noahide Covenant is still in effect. The Davidic Covenant is still in effect.

 

[BobRyan]

But this "joining" was in regards to in the land of Israel.

Very creative thinking there...

now for details "in the text".

In Isaiah 56 we have this.

New King James Version (NKJV)
6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”

There is nothing there about all nations moving to the land of Israel.
There is nothing there about "only keep Sabbath if you are on soil that is in Israel"
IN the NT we see both Jews and gentiles in Jerusalem on Passover and they are from "all nations" as can be seen in the case of the Ethiopian.

Is 66:23 makes it clear that the context is "all mankind"
"from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship" in the New Earth.

So it is that in Acts 13 we have gentiles in the Synagogue on the Sabbath hearing Gospel preaching -not on the soil/land/ground of Israel but in Antioch -

Acts 13
14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day and sat down. 15 And after the reading of the Law and the Prophets, the rulers of the synagogue sent to them, saying, “Men and brethren, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.” 16 Then Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand said, “Men of Israel, and you who fear God, listen:
..
42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath

 

[BobRyan]

Hi Copperhead, I have one problem. I am of the understanding that the Sinai covenant expired because Israel didn't keep the requirements of the covenant. How can people live under two differing covenants at the same time?

The moral law of God was included at Sinai as almost every Christian denomination on planet earth admits today. So that includes the TEN - where "the first commandment with a promise" is the 5th commandment Eph 6:2

I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm the Ten Commandments for Christians.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

Adventists would have no excuse at all for not knowing this obvious Bible detail.

 

[Copperhead]

I would expect them to say the 10 commandments apply to all Christians. Most all of those men and groups are replacement theology proponents or some variation thereof.

But one is going to have a tough time showing where the Apostles taught the entirety of the 10 commandments apply to all Christians. You will find ample evidence of the Noahide Laws applying to all gentile believers.

The seven Noahide laws as traditionally enumerated long before the time of Yeshua are the following:

1. Not to worship idols.
2. Not to curse God.
3. To establish courts of justice.
4. Not to commit murder.
5. Not to commit adultery, inappropriate behavior with animals, or sexual immorality.
6. Not to steal.
7. Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal.

And that seems to be what James was referring to in Acts 15. Also, everything Paul taught his gentile converts comports within these laws.

 

[Copperhead]

Acts 13
14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day and sat down. 15 And after the reading of the Law and the Prophets, the rulers of the synagogue sent to them, saying, “Men and brethren, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.” 16 Then Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand said, “Men of Israel, and you who fear God, listen:
..
42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath

In case you didn't notice, this was before the ruling of the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15. Just because the Gentiles begged the word to be preached the next Shabbat, does not mean that they are required to observe Shabbat. And "God Fearers" were traditionally gentile proselytes who had not yet completed conversion to Judaism and placing themselves under the entirety of the Mosaic Covenant. Check with our Messianic brethren about this.

And as for all coming to worship on Shabbat in the Messianic Kingdom or New Earth, I would not dispute that. But that time is not the present time. At differing times, differing requirements were set forth. Just like the feast of Tabernacles and other such things will be required during the Messianic Kingdom. Yet it is unlawful under Mosaic Law for a gentile who is not a convert to observe the feast of tabernacles. There was no prescription that the Shabbat be honored in the Adamic Covenant. Nor in the Noahide Covenant nor Abrahamic Covenant. Only with the advent of the Mosaic Covenant, and that covenant was specifically made with Jacob/Israel. The Shabbat was the sign of the Mosaic Covenant. Circumcision was the sign of the Abrahamic Covenant, just reinforced by the Mosaic Covenant. The Noahide Covenant is still the standard for Gentiles and James ruled it as such with the approval of Paul and Peter.

 

[BobRyan]

In case you didn't notice, this was before the ruling of the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15.

If you think that the folks in the synagogue in Acts 13 where under the direction of the Jerusalem council in any way shape or form you are not "noticing the details". The folks in the synagogue in Acts 13 are under the Isaiah 56 directive because they have not yet become Christians. The very directive that you were claiming would cause those gentiles to only worship on Sabbath IF they were on Jewish soil in Jerusalem. You are losing focus on the point you were just making. I was simply showing that not only did it not work with the gentiles of Isaiah 56 in other nations that worship the one true God -- but your suggestion was also not working with gentiles in the NT who worship God on Sabbath though not in Jerusalem.

Just because the Gentiles begged the word to be preached the next Shabbat, does not mean that they are required to observe Shabbat.

The text you are now avoiding in Isaiah 56 say it was choosing 'not to defile' ... a choice "not to profane" the things of God. Your suggestion that worshipers of the one true God were known as those who choose to "defile" and "profane" the holy things of God is an assumption that you have not yet proven to be true.

“Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—

“Also the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
To minister to Him, and to love the name of the Lord,
To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning the sabbath
And holds fast My covenant;

And "God Fearers" were traditionally gentile proselytes

Which is the same point in Isaiah 56. They are specifically singled out for the blessing of Sabbath keeping given to those who choose not to "profane" or "defile" the holy things of God.

And as for all coming to worship on Shabbat in the Messianic Kingdom or New Earth, I would not dispute that.

the new earth of Isaiah 66:23 and Rev 21:1-2 is after the 1000 years ... after the lake of fire... after the cross... it shows that the Sabbath commandment not only applies to gentiles in Isaiah 56:6-8 before the cross ... but for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth where all mankind is in full obedience.. the Sabbath "remains for the people of God"

 

[Cribstyl]

[

If you think that the folks in the synagogue in Acts 13 where under the direction of the Jerusalem council in any way shape or form you are not "noticing the details". The folks in the synagogue in Acts 13 are under the Isaiah 56 directive because they have not yet become Christians. The very directive that you were claiming would cause those gentiles to only worship on Sabbath IF they were on Jewish soil in Jerusalem. You are losing focus on the point you were just making. I was simply showing that not only did it not work with the gentiles of Isaiah 56 in other nations that worship the one true God -- but your suggestion was also not working with gentiles in the NT who worship God on Sabbath though not in Jerusalem.



The text you are now avoiding in Isaiah 56 say it was choosing 'not to defile' ... a choice "not to profane" the things of God. Your suggestion that worshipers of the one true God were known as those who choose to "defile" and "profane" the holy things of God is an assumption that you have not yet proven to be true.

“Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—

“Also the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
To minister to Him, and to love the name of the Lord,
To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning the sabbath
And holds fast My covenant;



Which is the same point in Isaiah 56. They are specifically singled out for the blessing of Sabbath keeping given to those who choose not to "profane" or "defile" the holy things of God.




the new earth of Isaiah 66:23 and Rev 21:1-2 is after the 1000 years ... after the lake of fire... after the cross... it shows that the Sabbath commandment not only applies to gentiles in Isaiah 56:6-8 before the cross ... but for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth where all mankind is in full obedience.. the Sabbath "remains for the people of God"

The facts in Act 13 shows that it was the Holy Spirit who separated Paul and Barnabus to the work of teaching Gentiles. Act 13:2 (not Isa 56)
They were teaching (New Covenant) about the Gospel of Jesus Christ and not (Old Covenant) about, circumcision, Sabbaths, and keeping the law.
Act 13:38
- Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
Act 13:39 - And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.



Jesus explained that that the law and the prophet served until John.
Mat 11:13 ,
Luk 16:16,


Act 13 teaches us what the Holy Spirit led Jerusalem council established as doctrine for Gentile Christians. Copperhead's comments are quite reasonable in pointing out that; meeting to hear the word of God on the Sabbath does not necessarily suggest Sabbathkeeping.

 

[BobRyan]

But this "joining" was in regards to in the land of Israel.

Very creative thinking there...

now for details "in the text".

In Isaiah 56 we have this.

New King James Version (NKJV)
6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”

There is nothing there about all nations moving to the land of Israel.
There is nothing there about "only keep Sabbath if you are on soil that is in Israel"
IN the NT we see both Jews and gentiles in Jerusalem on Passover and they are from "all nations" as can be seen in the case of the Ethiopian.

Is 66:23 makes it clear that the context is "all mankind"
"from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship" in the New Earth.

So it is that in Acts 13 we have gentiles in the Synagogue on the Sabbath hearing Gospel preaching -not on the soil/land/ground of Israel but in Antioch -

Acts 13
14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day and sat down. 15 And after the reading of the Law and the Prophets, the rulers of the synagogue sent to them, saying, “Men and brethren, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.” 16 Then Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand said, “Men of Israel, and you who fear God, listen:
..
42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath

[
The facts in Act 13 shows that it was the Holy Spirit who separated Paul and Barnabus to the work of teaching Gentiles.

True but that is not our topic. We are not discussing "why" Paul went to the Synagogue - we are discussing who is in the synagogue and nobody here is saying that Paul made gentiles go to the Synagogue so they could hear him preach.

Your post appears to be off topic.

 

[Copperhead]

If one is going to push the idea that the Shabbat is a requirement today, then they better be actually observing all Shabbats. For instance did those that promote this idea observe the Shabbat of October 9th, Wednesday, Yom Kippur? How about both Shabbats of Sukkot (Tabernacles) which the first was on Monday Oct 14th? The scripture clearly says that anyone who defiles that one will be cut off. And these in Leviticus 23 are joined with the weekly Shabbat at the start of the chapter. So if one sets a requirement of the weekly Shabbat, they have to put themselves under Leviticus 23, all the Shabbats.

 

[Cribstyl]

Very creative thinking there...

now for details "in the text".

In Isaiah 56 we have this.

New King James Version (NKJV)
6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”

There is nothing there about all nations moving to the land of Israel.
There is nothing there about "only keep Sabbath if you are on soil that is in Israel"
IN the NT we see both Jews and gentiles in Jerusalem on Passover and they are from "all nations" as can be seen in the case of the Ethiopian.

From Ex 15 we can read that God invited the Gentiles to join His people. Isa 56 is exclusive to recipients of the Old Covenant

Is 66:23 makes it clear that the context is "all mankind"
"from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship" in the New Earth.

So it is that in Acts 13 we have gentiles in the Synagogue on the Sabbath hearing Gospel preaching -not on the soil/land/ground of Israel but in Antioch -

Acts 13
14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day and sat down. 15 And after the reading of the Law and the Prophets, the rulers of the synagogue sent to them, saying, “Men and brethren, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.” 16 Then Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand said, “Men of Israel, and you who fear God, listen:
..
42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath

You're correct to show it was (a)in the synagogue, (b) on the Sabbath, that the rulers (Jews) read from the law and the prophets. The big question is why are you avoiding what Paul taught?
Act 13:38 - Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

Act 13:39 - And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Paul is teaching faith apart from the law.

True but that is not our topic. We are not discussing "why" Paul went to the Synagogue - we are discussing who is in the synagogue and nobody here is saying that Paul made gentiles go to the Synagogue so they could hear him preach.

Your post appears to be off topic.

It's clear that you want to show that Sabbath and the law was kept but you're ignoring what was being taught by Paul through the power of the Holy S

 

[Cribstyl]

True but that is not our topic. We are not discussing "why" Paul went to the Synagogue - we are discussing who is in the synagogue and nobody here is saying that Paul made gentiles go to the Synagogue so they could hear him preach.

Your post appears to be off topic.

Thank for allowing me to join the conversation. Your topic appears to say that Gentiles are to keep the Sabbath (because in Acts 13 they requested to meet next Sabbath). Isa 56 does not establish who was in the synagogue in Act 13. Your presentation is to reinforce the old covenant (keeping the Sabbath and the law)

 

[BobRyan]

From Ex 15 we can read that God invited the Gentiles to join His people.

God never required that all of planet Earth go move to Israel -- I think most people will agree on that point. Thus is it "nations" that are worshiping God in the OT "A house of prayer for ALL Nations" and not "a single nation".

The Ethiopian in the book of Acts is returning to his own nation after Pentecost - even though he was a believer in the one true God.

 

[BobRyan]

If one is going to push the idea that the Shabbat is a requirement today, then they better be actually observing all Shabbats.

Until they read Hebrews 10 where we find that all the Shabbats whose liturgy is only in animal sacrifices and offerings - ended at the cross.

And then we see in Isaiah 66:23 "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth. No animal sacrifices... none in Genesis 2 either -- where we have the first Sabbath.

 

[Copperhead]

none in Genesis 2 either -- where we have the first Sabbath.

Indeed the first mention of Shabbat, but there is no indication that it was observed as religious sacrament. Not until over 2000 years later during the Exodus. It was established as a sign of the Mosaic Covenant. And that was a covenant between the Lord and the Hebrew people. Circumcision was the sign of the Abrahamic Covenant, so it is not the sign of the Mosaic Covenant either. The Shabbat is the sign of the Mosaic Covenant.

If one feels inclined to observe the Shabbat regularly, then by all means go for it. But anyone who holds it over others (non Hebrews) as a requirement, then they are totally out of line with scripture. What happens in the New Earth or even the future Messianic Kingdom of 1000 years is another matter. Neither of those are the present age nor the age of Adam, Abraham, or Moses.

And James, who headed the Jerusalem Church, Paul, Peter, etc did not make Shabbat a requirement, nor any other aspect of the Mosaic Covenant binding on Gentiles who came to faith in Yeshua. At the most, James reaffirmed the Noahaic Covenant requirements that were established with all mankind after the Flood and still binding on Gentiles, even those living in Israel. No murder, abstain from sexual immorality, no eating blood, abstaining from idols, etc.

 

[BobRyan]

Indeed the first mention of Shabbat, but there is no indication that it was observed as religious sacrament. .

Mark 2:27 is it is specifically made "for mankind"
Ex 20:11 says it began in Genesis 2 when it was sanctified for holy use.
Genesis 2:1-3 says the same.

 

[Copperhead]

Mark 2:27 is it is specifically made "for mankind"
Ex 20:11 says it began in Genesis 2 when it was sanctified for holy use.
Genesis 2:1-3 says the same.

the points are valid, but again, there is no scriptural support that Shabbat was a required observation by mankind in general and not even the descendants of Abraham until the Mosaic Covenant was established. And that was at least 2000 years after the creation of the earth.

The fact that the Lord hallowed the Shabbat does not in any way suggest that He made it a requirement to be observed before the Mosaic Covenant, and then, that Covenant was specifically made with Israel, not mankind in general.

When Messiah rules on the earth, I have no doubt that Shabbat will be put into effect as a kingdom observance. But yet again, it is not a requirement now for those who are not under the Mosaic Covenant. If it was so essential as some would suggest, then it would have been a major theological argument made by the Apostles in their letters as an requirement. And the first and largest church of the time was in Jerusalem with Yeshua's brother, James, as the head of it. And he specifically said that the gentiles were not required to observe the Mosaic Covenant, of which the Shabbat is the key component. And James was recognized as being the final authority on the matter by Paul and Peter.

 

[Cribstyl]

God never required that all of planet Earth go move to Israel -- I think most people will agree on that point. Thus is it "nations" that are worshiping God in the OT "A house of prayer for ALL Nations" and not "a single nation".

The Ethiopian in the book of Acts is returning to his own nation after Pentecost - even though he was a believer in the one true God.

Who said that God required all of planet earth to move to Israel? Excuse my poor communication and wrong reference chapter. I meant that God required the Gentiles who accompanied the group leaving Egypt, to keep Passover and be circumcised. Circumcision is a sign of the Abrahamic covenant.
Exo 12:48
And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

I agree with Copperhead that living among Jews does not change your nationality. Becoming a Christian is different. It is a relationship with God and brethren.