Book of Common Prayer editions/versions

[Shane R]

I was teaching catechism and adult Sunday school when I realized scripture taught doctrine that was opposed to the Tridentine Catholicism we were being taught. We were doing a romp through the Epistles and reading the Fathers that came to this realization. So I did what what any good Anglican would do and sought the help of my priest. It was then I also realized he was a fraud.

It's this type of report that hurts me. I know it's true. But I get crapped on for acknowledging it in Continuing circles. We are bad at acknowledging some of the group are wannabe Catholics from some mythical age where Catholics were pure.

We are now in a world where many, many Anglicans do not speak English, and do not worship in English.

True. And I had a dust-up with an ACA priest a while back about this. In the US, probably 15% of the people speak Spanish at home. He told me those people can all just be Roman Catholics, that's fine. I could hardly fathom that level of ignorance and lack of interest. First of all, weird forms of Pentecostalism are sweeping through the Latin American community. Secondly, their Catholicism has always been two steps removed from idol worship.

As for ACNA, Albion described it best: they've never decided what they want to be. But they are leaning more and more to generic American Evangelicalism. There are parishes that totally ignore the prayer book. And there is a reason they haven't adopted a standard hymnal: probably less than half would ever use it.

 

[PloverWing]

So I did what what any good Anglican would do and sought the help of my priest. It was then I also realized he was a fraud.

After reading Shane R's response, I'm curious now. Can you elaborate on what you mean by "a fraud"? Do you mean he was improperly ordained, or that he believed false things, or that he was "living a notoriously evil life" (to use the BCP's words), or something else?

 

[Julian of Norwich]

After reading Shane R's response, I'm curious now. Can you elaborate on what you mean by "a fraud"? Do you mean he was improperly ordained, or that he believed false things, or that he was "living a notoriously evil life" (to use the BCP's words), or something else?

That's a very g

After reading Shane R's response, I'm curious now. Can you elaborate on what you mean by "a fraud"? Do you mean he was improperly ordained, or that he believed false things, or that he was "living a notoriously evil life" (to use the BCP's words), or something else?

That's a very good question, esp since one of the strengths of Anglicanism is it's ability to enfold such various English christian beliefs besides only the Cranmerian reformation beliefs as Paideski has often stated. Although, I personally admire the BCP very much I can certainly see where other languages need now to be included for the Anglican edification of the Worldwide Communion. I'd hate to think we're not biblically and orthodoxically (is that a word?) "inclusive". That word has now gotten IMO, bad connotations.

 

[Athanasius377]

After reading Shane R's response, I'm curious now. Can you elaborate on what you mean by "a fraud"? Do you mean he was improperly ordained, or that he believed false things, or that he was "living a notoriously evil life" (to use the BCP's words), or something else?

I’ll DM you if you don’t mind. It’s better that way and I think you’ll see why.

 

[Athanasius377]

That's a very g

That's a very good question, esp since one of the strengths of Anglicanism is it's ability to enfold such various English christian beliefs besides only the Cranmerian reformation beliefs as Paideski has often stated. Although, I personally admire the BCP very much I can certainly see where other languages need now to be included for the Anglican edification of the Worldwide Communion. I'd hate to think we're not biblically and orthodoxically (is that a word?) "inclusive". That word has now gotten IMO, bad connotations.

The issue I was speaking was peculiar to our parish. Without running afoul of the SOP of the sub forum I hope you can give me a little rope. It is true Anglicanism was in a sense balancing act between the continental reformers and the generically catholic reformers of the Anglican Church. So the BCP and the Articles lean towards a gentle Reformed position with Lutheran influences. At least that’s my reading of the early English reformation. It also predates the Catholic reformation or counter reformation if you will. So Tridentine elements of theology were smuggled into Anglican thought in the 19th century. I believe this is problematic yet I can’t says it’s out of bounds because Anglicanism never had a Formula of Concord moment like the Lutheran church did which spells out the balance. It’s simply written and implied which is why I say “I believe” earlier in my statement rather than “it is”.
Confused yet? Lol. Best I can do is say it’s Reformed Catholic.

our parish was this middle of the road The fraud had to do with someone very specific which I won’t say publicly for reasons I think if you knew would agree.

 

[Paidiske]

He told me those people can all just be Roman Catholics, that's fine.

My jaw just literally dropped. Is that kind of attitude common in America?

 

[Julian of Norwich]

The issue I was speaking was peculiar to our parish. Without running afoul of the SOP of the sub forum I hope you can give me a little rope. It is true Anglicanism was in a sense balancing act between the continental reformers and the generically catholic reformers of the Anglican Church. So the BCP and the Articles lean towards a gentle Reformed position with Lutheran influences. At least that’s my reading of the early English reformation. It also predates the Catholic reformation or counter reformation if you will. So Tridentine elements of theology were smuggled into Anglican thought in the 19th century. I believe this is problematic yet I can’t says it’s out of bounds because Anglicanism never had a Formula of Concord moment like the Lutheran church did which spells out the balance. It’s simply written and implied which is why I say “I believe” earlier in my statement rather than “it is”.
Confused yet? Lol. Best I can do is say it’s Reformed Catholic.

our parish was this middle of the road The fraud had to do with someone very specific which I won’t say publicly for reasons I think if you knew would agree.

I'm not confused yet and fully agree with your assessment of the history of Anglicanism (as best I know). And you are certainly allowed some rope!

 

[Julian of Norwich]

My jaw just literally dropped. Is that kind of attitude common in America?

I really hope not! But there is a contingent of nationalism that I (and many, I believe) don't agree with. I think that thought is probably due to nationalism rather than Anglicanism - at least I hope!

 

[Albion]

Although, I personally admire the BCP very much I can certainly see where other languages need now to be included for the Anglican edification of the Worldwide Communion. I'd hate to think we're not biblically and orthodoxically (is that a word?) "inclusive". That word has now gotten IMO, bad connotations.

Translating the BCP into other languages is not an issue. It has always been understood that this will be done and that different provinces will bring out their own books. But changing the contents in the process is another matter.

 

[Paidiske]

The idea that a straight translation will be culturally appropriate for everyone is a problem, though. (Again, a very colonial mindset).

 

[Julian of Norwich]

Translating the BCP into other languages is not an issue. It has always been understood that this will be done and that different provinces will bring out their own books. But changing the contents in the process is a different matter.

I certainly agree with this!

 

[Julian of Norwich]

The idea that a straight translation will be culturally appropriate for everyone is a problem, though. (Again, a very colonial mindset).

It is a colonial mindset and I don't think Americans have any idea what the problems that you see from the culture diversity that you, for instance, see. That said, don't you think the BCP needs to keep it's historically English cultural mindset in order to stay true to itself?

 

[Paidiske]

That said, don't you think the BCP needs to keep it's historically English cultural mindset in order to stay true to itself?

I don't see that as very important. Even our own Articles of Religion say that "It is not necessary that Traditions and Ceremonies be in all places one, or utterly like; for at all times they have been divers, and may be changed according to the diversity of countries, times, and men's manners, so that nothing be ordained against God's Word."

If hewing close to a form of worship which is "true" to the BCP is a hindrance to the mission of the Church, and taking the above principle into account, I see diversity and flexibility as much more important.

 

[Shane R]

My jaw just literally dropped. Is that kind of attitude common in America?

I don't think so. I hope not. I think I encountered a particularly difficult individual.

 

[Shane R]

America is quite divided. There are parts of the country where that thought is probably more common. You'll hear pejoratives like "filthy beaners" (a term primarily referring to Mexicans but sometimes extended to most anyone of Latin American provenance). By some accounts, my late wife was a 'beaner'. I can't join the Ku Klux Klan anymore.

 

[Paidiske]

I can't join the Ku Klux Klan anymore.

Which I'm sure was hardly on your bucket list to start with!

 

[Julian of Norwich]

I don't see that as very important. Even our own Articles of Religion say that "It is not necessary that Traditions and Ceremonies be in all places one, or utterly like; for at all times they have been divers, and may be changed according to the diversity of countries, times, and men's manners, so that nothing be ordained against God's Word."

If hewing close to a form of worship which is "true" to the BCP is a hindrance to the mission of the Church, and taking the above principle into account, I see diversity and flexibility as much more important.

I can see your viewpoint and I hope I didn't come across as pompous. Yes, the articles of religion say it very well. Maybe I'm too colonial in my mindset. The diversity in Anglicanism is very important, without a doubt. Well, I'm stymied. Do you see a future for the BCP, in a non-colonial mindset?

 

[Shane R]

The KKK recruited me to be a chaplain one time. I brushed it off. But I told the Archbishop the offer was out there. And he said, "You know, I think that is one of the few ministries I will not approve us to participate in."

 

[Paidiske]

I can see your viewpoint and I hope I didn't come across as pompous.

Not at all!

Do you see a future for the BCP, in a non-colonial mindset?

As a resource amongst a pool of resources for worship, sure. As the definitive document which everyone adheres to in every context, no.

The KKK recruited me to be a chaplain one time.

The mind boggles.

I brushed it off. But I told the Archbishop the offer was out there. And he said, "You know, I think that is one of the few ministries I will not approve us to participate in."

Glad to hear it!

 

[Julian of Norwich]

By some accounts, my late wife was a 'beaner'. I can't join the Ku Klux Klan anymore.

Such a shame!