The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

[HatGuy]

To all:

For when I read the Scriptures, I do not get the impression that we can disobey Jesus or that we should not strive to obey His commands with the intention that we can keep them at some point in our lives (no matter how difficult some of them appear to be).

Matthew 7:26-27 says anyone who does not do what Jesus says they are like a fool who built His house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house.

Acts of the Apostles 3:23 says the same thing. It says anyone who does not hear (does not obey) the words of that prophet (JESUS), they will be destroyed.

Jesus said narrow is the way (See: Matthew 7:13-14).
Most do not appear to be on that narrow way.
Most appear to justify sin on some level thinking they are saved by having a belief alone on Jesus.

Any unbiased observer of what their Bible says in these passages and others like it and what they see in the popular churches teach these days will lead them to side with Jesus and not the popular masses of religion today. Granted, it will not be many. Many want the easy way or the wide gate path.

The big question then: how?

The older I get, the more I feel I suck at obedience.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Simple message of guidance. Not in anyway micromanagement.
That seems to be according to nature. Old nature, without the means to advance.
They had not received the message that gave to them eternal life.
No we don’t see that. We see teachers who are not teachers.

No. Jesus alone possesses immortality (1 Timothy 6:16).
So eternal life or immortality is not a magic wish like from a genie or a super power granted to us.
Eternal Life is Jesus Christ. We have to abide in Christ in order to have life.
1 John 5:12 says that he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life. This means we need to have the Son or abide in Him to have life. How can we have an assurance that we know the Lord (or that we are abiding in Him)? By keeping His commandments (See: 1 John 2:3). For the person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar, and the "truth" (Jesus is the Truth - Jhn 14:6) is not in them. Jesus is not in them if they are not obeying His commands. Jesus is the truth that should be in them if they were to obey Jesus.
John 5:24 does not only include believing in Jesus, but it also says we have to hear His words (i.e. obey His words) in order to not perish and in order to cross over from death unto life.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Simple message of guidance. Not in anyway micromanagement.
That seems to be according to nature. Old nature, without the means to advance.
They had not received the message that gave to them eternal life.
No we don’t see that. We see teachers who are not teachers.

There’s a reason that reformed theology didn’t exist until the 16th century. It simply wasn’t taught in the church before then.

 

[jahel]

There’s a reason that reformed theology didn’t exist until the 16th century. It simply wasn’t taught in the church before then.

New Creation isn’t exactly new.

 

[Neogaia777]

To all:

For when I read the Scriptures, I do not get the impression that we can disobey Jesus or that we should not strive to obey His commands and in time keep them (no matter how difficult some of them appear to be).

Many of you only like to quote part of this, but I'd like to remind you of "all of it", etc...

1 John 5:3- "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

And I have already tried to show you and explain to you why you are seeing them as so "difficult" and why you may be having such a hard time with them, etc...?

Jesus said narrow is the way (See: Matthew 7:13-14).
Most do not appear to be on that narrow way.

Why are you concerned with the affairs of "most", etc...?

Maybe that is part of your problem maybe, your focus in not in the right place, etc, not on Him like it should be maybe, etc...?

The way is narrow, but it is not all that difficult... Not when you truly know Him and your focus is right and is in the right place, etc, and you truly know the real true way, etc...

It is then that His commandments are not all that burdensome, etc...

Most appear to justify sin on some level thinking they are saved by having a belief alone on Jesus.

I'm not trying to justify any kind of sin, and many others are not either, and that's just the truth, why you think that or why you would say though, might be part of your problem as well maybe, maybe...?

Or part of why you are having such a hard and/or difficult time keeping the commandments maybe, etc...?

And if you truly saw others for what they really are, you would see that many are not, etc, and might have some compassion on them, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To all:

Jesus was not encouraging that nobody could obey God by pointing to the Pharisees and their hypocrisy. The Pharisees ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, faith, justice, and mercy (See Matthew 23:23, and Luke 11:42). So if Jesus was condemning the Pharisees, this means that He was condemning them because they did not obey. Jesus said that our righteousness must exceed that of the scribes and pharisees. We must not be hypocritical like them. This is what Jesus was teaching. Righteous instruction. If Jesus taught that we cannot keep God's laws he would have been guilty of sin in leading people into sin. Besides, at that time, the Pharisees were under the Law of Moses and they de-emphasized God's grace (like in the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee - See Luke 18:9-14). The Pharisee religion made salvation primarily about obedience to the Law and yet there was no grace.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The big question then: how?

The older I get, the more I feel I suck at obedience.

First, we have to reject Eternal Security and or Belief Alone-ism or a Belief that says all future sin is paid for that leads a person to treat God's grace as a safety net to sin on some level or to not treat certain grievous sins as if they cannot destroy us spiritually. Second, once we have a proper view of God's grace in relation to sin, and God's commands (not the Old Testament commands), a believer will seek help with the Lord to overcome sin, and He will know that their desire to truly follow Him on His terms and not their own. God can then help them to overcome certain sins in their life.

 

[bobsmename]

Whoever speaks on their own does so to gain personal glory, but he who seeks the glory of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him. 19 Has not Moses given you the law? Yet not one of you keeps the law. Why are you trying to kill me? John7:18&19

 

[jahel]

No. Jesus alone possesses immortality (1 Timothy 6:16).
So eternal life or immortality is not a magic wish like from a genie or a super power granted to us.

THEN if the self-same spirit dwell in you, He shall quicken your mortal bodies if it indeed dwell in you.

Eternal Life is Jesus Christ. We have to abide in Christ in order to have life.
1 John 5:12 says that he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life. This means we need to have the Son or abide in Him to have life.

In the first place the word heard and received gives life to the hearer.

How can we have an assurance that we know the Lord (or that we are abiding in Him)?

By daily fellowshipping with Him via the throne of grace. Only Christ is appointed as mediator.

By keeping His commandments (See: 1 John 2:3). For the person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar, and the "truth" (Jesus is the Truth - Jhn 14:6) is not in them. Jesus is not in them if they are not obeying His commands. Jesus is the truth that should be in them if they were to obey Jesus.

And what are His commandments but to love God and fellowman more than self.

John 5:24 does not only include believing in Jesus, but it also says we have to hear His words (i.e. obey His words) in order to not perish and in order to cross over from death unto life.

Yes to comes with hearing. Blessed on the mountain are the feet of them who bring good news.

 

[bobsmename]

He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant – not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.


7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!

 

[Neogaia777]

To all:

Jesus was not encouraging that nobody could obey God by pointing to the Pharisees and their hypocrisy. The Pharisees ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, faith, justice, and mercy (See Matthew 23:23, and Luke 11:42). So if Jesus was condemning the Pharisees, this means that He was condemning them because they did not obey. Jesus said that our righteousness must exceed that of the scribes and pharisees. We must not be hypocritical like them. This is what Jesus was teaching. Righteous instruction. If Jesus taught that we cannot keep God's laws he would have been guilty of sin in leading people into sin.

Is righteousness being overly condemning and overly critical and judgmental and condemning of others, etc...?

Is Christ's ministry or the true Gospel one of condemnation only, etc...?

Or is righteousness having and or harboring some kind of bitterness, or bitter resentment and anger and covetousness and jealousy and envy of them (sinners) in your heart...?

If you can purge yourself of all that "stuff", then you will find His commands or commandments much less burdensome.

Especially the ones that call you to love, or have compassion on and for "sinners", etc... Like Jesus did, etc...

God Bless!

 

[HatGuy]

Second, once we have a proper view of God's grace in relation to sin, and God's commands (not the Old Testament commands), a believer will seek help with the Lord to overcome sin, and He will know that their desire to truly follow Him on His terms and not their own. God can then help them to overcome certain sins in their life.

Certain sins, or all?

Just asking for clarity.

Then, in asking "how", am I right in saying that the first step in a positive direction is prayer?

How much prayer?

What kind of prayer?

Are there any other steps?

Am I guaranteed the Lord will answer? Will he answer quickly to stop me from sinning? Or will he delay?

These are honest questions around the practicalities - I think it may be helpful to provide better understanding.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To all:

Most do not realize that Paul primarily spoke against trying to be saved by the Law of Moses or the Old Law. If one were to look at the references for the word "law," or "works," and they were to read the surrounding passages (sometimes one has to skip back a chapter or so), and they will see that Paul was referring to the Law of Moses and he was not referring to the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), or the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2), or the Perfect Law of Liberty (James 1:25). Anyone who is honest with themselves and seeking the truth (with a pure heart) will come to this conclusion.

 

[bobsmename]

A belief that you have to be good enough for God through lawkeeping results in watering down the law from the pristine level it is set at, to something you feel more comfortable with. Your own sin is excused, and you deflect from your own shortcomings concerning it by attacking others. A hardened heart follows and demanding of others what you do not demand of yourself

 

[bobsmename]

As for zeal, persecuting the church, as for legalistic righteousness, faultless Phil3:6

Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Rom7:4-13

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Certain sins, or all?

How can God can condemn us if there is no mention of any condemnation or death if we do keep such commands? Does God say in His Word that if we do not keep even the smallest aspect of His commands that we will be condemned? I don't see that in Scripture. But what I do see is God condemning of many certain sins, though. Sins like murder, hate, adultery, theft, idolatry, not loving your brother or neighbor are condemned. Also, not spreading the gospel, and not helping the poor are also salvation issues, as well.

Just asking for clarity.

Then, in asking "how", am I right in saying that the first step in a positive direction is prayer?

How much prayer?

What kind of prayer?

Are there any other steps?

Am I guaranteed the Lord will answer? Will he answer quickly to stop me from sinning? Or will he delay?

These are honest questions around the practicalities - I think it may be helpful to provide better understanding.

Here are Ways For a Believer To Overcome Grievous Sin by God's Word and With the Help of Jesus: (Important Note (PLEASE READ): Please understand that I am not talking about overcoming minor sins, like imperfections of character here (Note: An example of a sin of imperfection of character would be that a person may not always be a great listener, and or they may not take out the trash on time, or they go 5mph over the speed limit a little, etc.); But grievous sin (like murder, theft, adultery, coveting, etc.), these are sins that the Bible describes as sins leading to spiritual death. In other words, I am NOT talking about Sinless Perfectionism here) (I believe Sinless Perfection deals with putting away "sins that do not lead to spiritual death - 1 John 5:17 and it is not exclusively talking about just meeting the basic requirements for living holy - According to the New Testament). Anyways, here is my list from Scripture that shows how a believer can overcome "grievous sin" or sins that lead to spiritual death.

#1. A believer can remove themselves from sinful environments.

A believer should remove themselves from sinful environments (if possible) and or get rid of things that cause them to sin. In Genesis: Joseph had literally ran away from the temptation of sexual sin (Genesis 39:11-12). One of the commands in the New Testament is: "Flee fornication." (1 Corinthians 6:18) (Note: Paul says that what he had written should be regarded as the commandments of the Lord - 1 Corinthians 14:37) (KJV). Sometimes this running away is merely a means of escape. God provides a way of escape for us to run to so that we can bear the temptation and get through it. For 1 Corinthians 10:13 says, "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

#2. Believers can pray to God so as not to be tempted.

Believers can pray to God so as not to be tempted. It is part of the Lord’s prayer for a believer to pray so as not to be tempted into sin (Matthew 6:12). God will guide and protect a believer if they are serious in praying for this. "Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation" (Matthew 26:41). In fact, fasting will help a believer with this, as well. I believe that being enslaved to sin is a demonic influence. While being enslaved to sin does not mean a Christian is possessed by a demon, we learn that certain demon possessions could not be driven out only by prayer and fasting (Matthew 17:21). So if demon possession at the most intense level can only be healed (by the casting out of the demon) by both prayer and fasting, then it is a sure bet that fasting and praying to overcome sin will also help a believer overcome sin (Which is a demonic influence).

#3. Believers can obey God’s righteous ways.

Believers can obey God’s righteous ways. The more a believer loves God and loves others and obeys His Word and they stay in His Word and pray, the more they will not even have a chance to sin or do the wrong thing. For the more a believer walk in God's Word by the Spirit you will not fulfill the lusts of flesh. "Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." (Galatians 5:16). "But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:14). "But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." (Romans 6:22).

#4. When a believer is tempted, they can quote Scripture.

When a believer is tempted, they can quote Scripture to defeat the devil's temptation. When Jesus was tempted by the devil, He quoted Scripture to defeat the devil (Matthew 4:4) (Matthew 4:7) (Matthew 4:10). So when some specific sin is bothering a believer, a believer can do research and find all the verses they can that are victory verses that they can speak when tempted to overcome that particular sin. A good general verse (Especially if a believer is tempted to look at women in lust if they find themselves in public around a lot of people) is, “The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want.” (Psalms 23:1). A believer can say these verses to themselves silently under their breath (with nobody hearing).

#5. Believers can ask for prayer from other God fearing Christians.

A believer can ask for prayer from other God fearing Christians or Godly Christians to help them to overcome certain sins. The Scriptures say, "bear ye one another's burdens and thus fulfill the Law of Christ." So a believer should seek true fellowship (even if it is just 2 or 3 faithful believers to meet up every week so as to worship God) and they should ask these faithful Christians for help to overcome their sin. In 1 John 5, we see Christians praying for a believer who is struggling to overcome a sin (that they are confessing). "If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death." (1 John 5:16). A faithful Christian shall ask God to give their fellow Christian life (victory) in overcoming their sin that they are confessing (i.e. sin that is confessed is not a sin that leads unto death).

#6. A believer can hide God’s Word in their heart.

A believer can hide God’s Word in their heart to overcome grievous sin. Meaning, a believer should memorize Scripture. David said he hid God’s Word within his heart so that he may not sin against the Lord. "Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee." (Psalms 119:11).

#7. A believer can confess of their sins.

A believer can confess of their sins. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.​

Anyways, I hope this helps.
May God's good ways be upon you always.

With loving kindness to you in Christ,

Sincerely,

~J.

 

[steppinrazor]

A belief that you have to be good enough for God through lawkeeping results in watering down the law from the pristine level it is set at, to something you feel more comfortable with. Your own sin is excused, and you deflect from your own shortcomings concerning it by attacking others. A hardened heart follows and demanding of others what you do not demand of yourself

I think this is closer to the truth. We can all argue day in and day out about the philosophy of the bible, but really the message is very clear. All your sins are forgiven by the blood of Jesus and his Crucifixion. Ive had these arguments before and the simple truth holds the key to understanding. Yes, you can continue to murder people..or whatever...and still gain the grace of the father, BUT as a believer and newly born christian you will NOT want to continue to live the life of your previous self.

 

[Neogaia777]

To all:

Most do not realize that Paul primarily spoke against trying to be saved by the Law of Moses or the Old Law. If one were to look at the references for the word "law," or "works," and they were to read the surrounding passages (sometimes one has to skip back a chapter or so), and they will see that Paul was referring to the Law of Moses and he was not referring to the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), or the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2), or the Perfect Law of Liberty (James 1:25). Anyone who is honest with themselves and seeking the truth (with a pure heart) will come to this conclusion.

The Law of Christ, the Law of Liberty, the Royal Law, etc, are they not the two commandments Jesus gave...?

And are you doing those perfectly all the time, or perfectly always constantly always fulfilling and or obeying them 100% perfectly all of the time...?

And if your not always doing those two always perfectly and all the time, then "what", etc...?

Do you condemn yourself...? or just only others, etc...?

God Bless!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To all:

Inevitably when a person pushes the idea upon Conditional Salvationists (like myself) that we are saved by works alone, they do not understand that we do believe that we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Christ and in seeking forgiveness with Him. What they also fail to understand is that they are promoting a... "secure in their sin" type view of salvation, while the follower of Christ is promoting that we can have life by keeping his commandments just as Jesus said (Matthew 19:17). For even believing in Jesus is a commandment (See: 1 John 3:23).

 

[bobsmename]

How many works must a person do to be sure of inheriting eternal life, does anyone know?