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cant recognize sarcasm?
Meeeeahhh.....apparently not. My bad
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cant recognize sarcasm?
It is a fallen nature that we all get now. Something we all need redemption from, something that without the workings of grace would damn us. It's part of our bent human nature.
Potential to sin is a bit different. Adam had the potential to sin from his creation. It is a corollary of having a free will, the free will not to do the good, to do something in privation of the good. The angels had that same option, and the freedom to choose to dissent from good.
Some dissented in actuality, and then fell. Adam and Eve did the same, exercising their potential to sin and thus sinning. From then on they had not just the potential to sin, but the inclination.
Our human nature, in it's pure form as created by God, is one of freedom. It is the human nature that Jesus had.
Catholics will argue that Mary also had it but by the singular work of Jesus. We know God can create humans who have not fallen, as he did successfully create Adam and Eve as unfallen people. Mary's sinlessness is considered 'fitting' but not required for Jesus to avoid original sin. She was saved but as one saved from falling rather than picked up after already having fallen.
Mary's sinlessness is considered 'fitting' but not required for Jesus to avoid original sin.
His avoidance of original sin is because he is God made man, who can have no sin of any sort in him, no sin nature, no concupiscence, no desire to sin.
He could be tempted to good things, as were all of the things Satan tempted him with.
But he could freely reject such things and concentrate on the greatest good, doing the will of the Father.
Jesus never fell, never shared in the sin of Adam, never had an inclination to sin. He was immune to that by being a divine person so taking on a human nature he took on the original human nature.
The rest of us have inherited a bent human nature, which means we need a savior from at least our first breath, which leads us inevitably to committing our own sins.
Are we guilty of his eating the fruit? No. He alone is guilty of that.
1 Corinthians 15:45-48
45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven.
God declared Adam, Eve and the rest of the creation as being 'very good'. To me, that means he could not have been filled with selfish desires at this point but pure ones. That selfish desires and guilt only came upon them when Adam ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and that this has been passed down to us all.
Genesis 6
She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.
I believe that Adam needed something outside of himself to cause him to fall into sin. Satan led Eve into sin and Eve lead Adam into sin. Before that occurrence, there had been no sin. The fact that the first sin was caused this way and the fact that it is included in the scripture is I think significant.
Genesis
12 The man said, “The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”
13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”
The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”
I don't think it is there to just make a more interesting story but for a purpose. Because in the New Testament we see Jesus facing the same thing.
Matthew 4:1-11
Satan tries and fails to tempt him. I see Genesis there as another example of foreshadowing of what Jesus would do, but do perfectly. Where mankind failed that test, Jesus completed it.
When Adam sinned he experienced spiritual death, physical death and also the inner selfishness and enjoyment of sin that all people are born with. We don't need Satan suggesting that sin is enjoyable we know this innately. People enjoy their drunkenness and immorality. We gained an inner understanding and longing for sin until we come to Christ. After coming to Christ we still sin but we should hate that we sin and repent of it and the longer we are growing as a Christian the less we should sin.
Years ago I tried calling Easter the Passover but that doesn't really work in Western Christian cultures as it is seen primarily as a Jewish celebration.
Are you not aware? Christianity began with the invention of the printing press.[/sarcasm]
And again you take potshots instead of debating scripture or doctrine, so I shall leave you to it. Perhaps you don't view this as an insult but I do as the very idea of a pope goes against everything that I believe in. The only rock is Christ.
And yet you yourself deny it and blame the Catholics for it. Trying to be less Catholic than the other guy.
Well no, you miss the obvious...it comes from the clear words of the Scriptures!
OK then we basically agree. We all live in a fallen world. BTW, it was originally called Pascha...remember Yeshua was a Jew.
I thought you believed the fall brought in spiritual death and physical death but changed nothing else about mankind.
I believe it brought in both of those as well as the selfish nature. This is how I view original sin. Pure motives changed to selfish ones and this selfish nature that enjoys sinning has been passed down from Adam to all mankind.
Frankly, it's hard to know what anyone believes on this thread as there are half a dozen different inspirations of what 'original sin' means.
Not sure who you are talking to?
There is apparently a lot of nuance to this. It's a deep subject.
I am replying to the person I quoted, Yeshua HaDerekh.
Indeed, I think a large part of this is that many of us are using the same words but with a quite a variety of shades to it.
It shows at the top of my post for me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Interesting. I don't see that. From the vanish point of other readers; I only see the start of the 1st sentence: "I thought you believed the fall......" and no address to anyone. I wonder if @Yeshua HaDerekh knows you are addressing them?
And...I thought you believed the fall brought in spiritual death and physical death but changed nothing else about mankind.
I believe it brought in both of those as well as the selfish nature. This is how I view original sin. Pure motives changed to selfish ones and this selfish nature that enjoys sinning has been passed down from Adam to all mankind.
Frankly, it's hard to know what anyone believes on this thread as there are half a dozen different inspirations of what 'original sin' means.
Original sin brought spiritual death and the need for the Savior...promised in Genesis 3:15.And...
already mentioned other passages, but...
I Corinthians 15:55-57:
Death, where is your sting?
Grave, where is your victory?
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!
Death came because of sin...it's how I interpret these passages.
@coffee4u - OK - I found the reason. The person you responded too is on my "ignore" list; so I don't see what they post, even though I see what you post. That answers it.
And...
already mentioned other passages, but...
I Corinthians 15:55-57:
Death, where is your sting?
Grave, where is your victory?
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!
Death came because of sin...it's how I interpret these passages.
I said "didn't bring forth spiritual beings, make that "holy spiritual beings".Original sin brought spiritual death and the need for the Savior...promised in Genesis 3:15.
There would have been no need for a Savior without the inheritance of original sin...it corrupted the first man and woman and they did not bring forth spiritual beings anymore...they brought forth sinful flesh, corrupted flesh but to those who believed in the promise there was salvation.
Romans5 has it all spelled out...when one man sinned he brought sin into the world and thus all men sinned. Now we have the promise made certain...Jesus Christ was made man, corrupted nature, but did not sin says Hebrews. Galatians tells us that Christ became a curse for us. It says this because of the Genesis promised Savior and because we see the curses more clearly from Romans and again that gives us God's promise made more certain and more fully. The NT puts the final stamp on it all. We see how the NT does this with the story of Jacob and Esau, Lot, Job and others as well. So please let's rely on the clear passages of the NT Romans.