Did Jesus inherit original sin from Mary?

The Righterzpen

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@chevyontheriver

Your explanation was thorough and easy to understand. Thank you for the time you put into this.

So basically the RCC concept of "original sin" is very close to what I'd said about inheriting a fallen nature.

It is a fallen nature that we all get now. Something we all need redemption from, something that without the workings of grace would damn us. It's part of our bent human nature.

Totally agree here and well explained! :oldthumbsup:

Potential to sin is a bit different. Adam had the potential to sin from his creation. It is a corollary of having a free will, the free will not to do the good, to do something in privation of the good. The angels had that same option, and the freedom to choose to dissent from good.

I would agree here too and your putting it this way was not something I'd thought about per say. But this is absolutely true; Adam had the "potential to sin" and that I believe was on account of the temporal nature of his existence. (I.E. he did not have the attributes God did); which made the fall inevitable because the only possible outcome of the knowledge of good and evil for an entity that is not God, is to be corrupted by it. And this is what made the "God/man" (incarnation) necessary for redemption.

Some dissented in actuality, and then fell. Adam and Eve did the same, exercising their potential to sin and thus sinning. From then on they had not just the potential to sin, but the inclination.

This is an interesting concept and I think it's supported by Scripture (the outcome being) what Jesus speaks of sinning in the heart (before the mind has conceived of and the action is taken).

I think this may bear some relevance to what God says to Cain about "sin crouching at your door" prior to his killing Abel. And that aspect of it was interesting too as (we assume) Cain was already subject to the fallen nature of Adam?

Yet interesting hypothesis, Cain being first born would not have inherited that fallen nature from Adam if he'd been conceived prior to the fall! If that was the case; he would have been his own example of being corrupted by the knowledge of good and evil even post fall, simply as a temporal individual living in a world where the knowledge of good and evil was already present. Which possibly brings another dimension to the phrase "In Adam all die"; because his transgression brought the knowledge of good and evil to humanity.

Yet all children conceived post fall obviously inherit the fallen nature.

Yet now you got me thinking about this concept of "dissent"?

I'd written an essay I'd posted of a hypothesis of the origin of evil. (I don't know if you read it? But a link to it was posted in this thread.) Which, I'd stated that evil was present even before the fall and I reckoned this idea from "darkness upon the face of the deep" language in Genesis. Which makes me wonder now; was the "dissent" (for humanity) a consequence of existing in "the presence of evil" even without knowledge of it? Is that what caused the "dissent" of man?

Which if this is the case? This brings an interesting nuance to the fall of angels. Were they actually created to possess the knowledge of good and evil and are those who've fallen; done so purely out of individual choice? And if that was the case; this would explain why there is no possibility of redemption for fallen angels.

Which of course now this begs the question of evil existing in the world causing the inevitable corruption of the universe. We know it caused the inevitable corruption of carbon based life. Yet, does the Bible give us enough information to explain why some angels fell when others didn't?

I don't know. Interesting question though?

Our human nature, in it's pure form as created by God, is one of freedom. It is the human nature that Jesus had.

This I agree with "in principle" because Adam was created in Christ's image. Yet he lacked the Divine nature Christ had. And I think you are correct when you assert the Divine nature made disobedience "impossible". I think technically speaking to disobey in the flesh was possible for Jesus; yet not possible because of the Divine nature having been inseparably joined to the human nature. Which "translates" as if Jesus had sinned in the human nature; that would have meant instantaneous death because the two natures could not cohabit the same individual if "half" that individual was "divided against" the other half. "Kingdom divided against itself doesn't stand." Which is ultimately what causes the kingdom of Satan to fall.

You follow me here?

So I agree that on account of having a Divine nature; in a very real way, Jesus "could not" sin. Yet the reality of what the human nature was (the temporal nature of Adam) made the human side of that possible. And that is important because in order to have a High Priest that is intimately acquainted with our weakness (as well as being an appropriate sacrifice); that makes the potential of the human nature to sin a necessity. The reason He didn't sin though, was because of His Divinity.

And here is why I have issues with this statement:

Catholics will argue that Mary also had it but by the singular work of Jesus. We know God can create humans who have not fallen, as he did successfully create Adam and Eve as unfallen people. Mary's sinlessness is considered 'fitting' but not required for Jesus to avoid original sin. She was saved but as one saved from falling rather than picked up after already having fallen.

In order for this to be true; Mary would have had to bear the same aspect of Divinity as Christ did. And seeing how Scripture declares there's only one Mediator; that can't be possible.

So what ever pope or who ever came to this conclusion:

Mary's sinlessness is considered 'fitting' but not required for Jesus to avoid original sin.

He was "more right" than those who have the counter opinion.

Now the "Protestant" (There is apparently some variation in what Orthodox believe about Mary.) opinion on this states: because Jesus does not have a human father, this is what makes His sinlessness possible even being born of a sinful mother. (Sin passed from father to child, not mother to child.) Which this would also fit the hypothesis that if the child was conceived (Cain) before the father (Adam) fell; the child would stand in the same "probational righteousness" the father did prior to the fall.

This would also jive with the fact that they were not kicked out of the garden until Adam ate the fruit. This was because both of them together are "the image of God". So what ever caused the "dissent" of Eve, was also present in Adam, because she was created from his body.

His avoidance of original sin is because he is God made man, who can have no sin of any sort in him, no sin nature, no concupiscence, no desire to sin.

As previously stated: agree with this statement in the practicality of how Jesus was created and who and what He was.

He could be tempted to good things, as were all of the things Satan tempted him with.

This is an interesting concept and I never thought about it in this context but you may be correct.

I say this because looking at the "wilderness temptations" Jesus was confronted with; none of these things were inherently bad in and of themselves. God knows we need food. I find the "kingdoms of this world" temptation almost comical because Jesus ultimately possessed them anyways by default of having a Divine nature; even though Adam did "default" on his authority as ruler of the earth. And I've always perceived the "jump off the pillar of the temple" as being an attempt to take advantage of a flesh weakened by state of lack of food; although I would agree that there was more to it than that. I just don't know what that "more" would have been. That's not a passage I've studied in any depth.

But he could freely reject such things and concentrate on the greatest good, doing the will of the Father.

Agreed, and this is why He said: "Not my will, but Your's be done." (Even though acknowledging in the "eternal plan" of things; this was also Christ's "will"; (despite the fact His humanity was obviously interested in self preservation).

Jesus never fell, never shared in the sin of Adam, never had an inclination to sin. He was immune to that by being a divine person so taking on a human nature he took on the original human nature.

Interesting point here too; and one I've never thought of in the way you've stated it. (Jesus taking on the original human nature of Adam.) This of course gets back to the original state of Adam being inherently corruptible by the fact that he did not bear the attributes of God (omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, immortality and eternally existent). Yet it would have been a moot point from a redemptive stand point to have Adam "created" with these attributes because that would have just meant the incarnation of Christ; which would have meant no created humanity to redeem.

It also would have expanded the "Trinity" to "infinity"; which.. what would have been the point of God proving that He could obey His own law? LOL That would not have been a "condescending" demonstration of Divine love.

The rest of us have inherited a bent human nature, which means we need a savior from at least our first breath, which leads us inevitably to committing our own sins.

Agreed!

You brought up some good points in this post!

Thank you for your thoughtful response!
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Are we guilty of his eating the fruit? No. He alone is guilty of that.

1 Corinthians 15:45-48
45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven.

God declared Adam, Eve and the rest of the creation as being 'very good'. To me, that means he could not have been filled with selfish desires at this point but pure ones. That selfish desires and guilt only came upon them when Adam ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and that this has been passed down to us all.

Genesis 6
She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

I believe that Adam needed something outside of himself to cause him to fall into sin. Satan led Eve into sin and Eve lead Adam into sin. Before that occurrence, there had been no sin. The fact that the first sin was caused this way and the fact that it is included in the scripture is I think significant.

Genesis
12 The man said, “The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”


13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”

The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

I don't think it is there to just make a more interesting story but for a purpose. Because in the New Testament we see Jesus facing the same thing.
Matthew 4:1-11
Satan tries and fails to tempt him. I see Genesis there as another example of foreshadowing of what Jesus would do, but do perfectly. Where mankind failed that test, Jesus completed it.

When Adam sinned he experienced spiritual death, physical death and also the inner selfishness and enjoyment of sin that all people are born with. We don't need Satan suggesting that sin is enjoyable we know this innately. People enjoy their drunkenness and immorality. We gained an inner understanding and longing for sin until we come to Christ. After coming to Christ we still sin but we should hate that we sin and repent of it and the longer we are growing as a Christian the less we should sin.

Years ago I tried calling Easter the Passover but that doesn't really work in Western Christian cultures as it is seen primarily as a Jewish celebration.

OK then we basically agree. We all live in a fallen world. BTW, it was originally called Pascha...remember Yeshua was a Jew. :)
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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And again you take potshots instead of debating scripture or doctrine, so I shall leave you to it. Perhaps you don't view this as an insult but I do as the very idea of a pope goes against everything that I believe in. The only rock is Christ.

No potshots, sorry if it seemed like that. What I meant was that because there are so many protestant denominations now, they themselves have such differing doctrines that each are their own pope.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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And yet you yourself deny it and blame the Catholics for it. Trying to be less Catholic than the other guy.

I deny it, not because it is a doctrine of the RCC, but because it is not Orthodox belief. My point was that it IS a RCC doctrine and that is where it comes from.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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coffee4u

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OK then we basically agree. We all live in a fallen world. BTW, it was originally called Pascha...remember Yeshua was a Jew. :)

I thought you believed the fall brought in spiritual death and physical death but changed nothing else about mankind.

I believe it brought in both of those as well as the selfish nature. This is how I view original sin. Pure motives changed to selfish ones and this selfish nature that enjoys sinning has been passed down from Adam to all mankind.

Frankly, it's hard to know what anyone believes on this thread as there are half a dozen different inspirations of what 'original sin' means. :swoon:
 
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The Righterzpen

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I thought you believed the fall brought in spiritual death and physical death but changed nothing else about mankind.

I believe it brought in both of those as well as the selfish nature. This is how I view original sin. Pure motives changed to selfish ones and this selfish nature that enjoys sinning has been passed down from Adam to all mankind.

Frankly, it's hard to know what anyone believes on this thread as there are half a dozen different inspirations of what 'original sin' means. :swoon:

Not sure who you are talking to?

There is apparently a lot of nuance to this. It's a deep subject.
 
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coffee4u

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Not sure who you are talking to?

There is apparently a lot of nuance to this. It's a deep subject.

I am replying to the person I quoted, Yeshua HaDerekh.

Indeed, I think a large part of this is that many of us are using the same words but with a quite a variety of shades to it.

 
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I am replying to the person I quoted, Yeshua HaDerekh.

Indeed, I think a large part of this is that many of us are using the same words but with a quite a variety of shades to it.

Well, if you quoted him; it didn't come out in the post.
 
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The Righterzpen

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It shows at the top of my post for me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Interesting. I don't see that. From the vanish point of other readers; I only see the start of the 1st sentence: "I thought you believed the fall......" and no address to anyone. I wonder if @Yeshua HaDerekh knows you are addressing them?
 
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coffee4u

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Interesting. I don't see that. From the vanish point of other readers; I only see the start of the 1st sentence: "I thought you believed the fall......" and no address to anyone. I wonder if @Yeshua HaDerekh knows you are addressing them?

I took a screenshot.

post.png
 
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@coffee4u - OK - I found the reason. The person you responded too is on my "ignore" list; so I don't see what they post, even though I see what you post. That answers it.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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I thought you believed the fall brought in spiritual death and physical death but changed nothing else about mankind.

I believe it brought in both of those as well as the selfish nature. This is how I view original sin. Pure motives changed to selfish ones and this selfish nature that enjoys sinning has been passed down from Adam to all mankind.

Frankly, it's hard to know what anyone believes on this thread as there are half a dozen different inspirations of what 'original sin' means. :swoon:
And...
already mentioned other passages, but...
I Corinthians 15:55-57:
Death, where is your sting?
Grave, where is your victory?
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!
Death came because of sin...it's how I interpret these passages.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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And...
already mentioned other passages, but...
I Corinthians 15:55-57:
Death, where is your sting?
Grave, where is your victory?
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!
Death came because of sin...it's how I interpret these passages.
Original sin brought spiritual death and the need for the Savior...promised in Genesis 3:15.
There would have been no need for a Savior without the inheritance of original sin...it corrupted the first man and woman and they did not bring forth spiritual beings anymore...they brought forth sinful flesh, corrupted flesh but to those who believed in the promise there was salvation.
Romans5 has it all spelled out...when one man sinned he brought sin into the world and thus all men sinned. Now we have the promise made certain...Jesus Christ was made man, corrupted nature, but did not sin says Hebrews. Galatians tells us that Christ became a curse for us. It says this because of the Genesis promised Savior and because we see the curses more clearly from Romans and again that gives us God's promise made more certain and more fully. The NT puts the final stamp on it all. We see how the NT does this with the story of Jacob and Esau, Lot, Job and others as well. So please let's rely on the clear passages of the NT Romans.
 
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coffee4u

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@coffee4u - OK - I found the reason. The person you responded too is on my "ignore" list; so I don't see what they post, even though I see what you post. That answers it.

Mystery solved. ^_^

And...
already mentioned other passages, but...
I Corinthians 15:55-57:
Death, where is your sting?
Grave, where is your victory?
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!
Death came because of sin...it's how I interpret these passages.

I hadn't thought about the sting being the law. I was thinking more of how death can seem like the end but isn't, but certainly, the law fits there too. I've also read that sting here is referring back to Hosea and Hades.
Hosea 13:14.
"I will deliver this people from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death. Where, O death, are your plagues? Where, O grave, is your destruction? "I will have no compassion.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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Original sin brought spiritual death and the need for the Savior...promised in Genesis 3:15.
There would have been no need for a Savior without the inheritance of original sin...it corrupted the first man and woman and they did not bring forth spiritual beings anymore...they brought forth sinful flesh, corrupted flesh but to those who believed in the promise there was salvation.
Romans5 has it all spelled out...when one man sinned he brought sin into the world and thus all men sinned. Now we have the promise made certain...Jesus Christ was made man, corrupted nature, but did not sin says Hebrews. Galatians tells us that Christ became a curse for us. It says this because of the Genesis promised Savior and because we see the curses more clearly from Romans and again that gives us God's promise made more certain and more fully. The NT puts the final stamp on it all. We see how the NT does this with the story of Jacob and Esau, Lot, Job and others as well. So please let's rely on the clear passages of the NT Romans.
I said "didn't bring forth spiritual beings, make that "holy spiritual beings".
 
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