Mary magnifies the Lord

[1Reformedman]

In Luke 1:43, Elizabeth calls Mary the mother of her Lord. Among Jews, there is only one Lord, the great I AM, Yahweh, the One who delivered the Israelites from Egypt, the One who created the heavens and the earth. Elizabeth, being filled with the Holy Spirit, said that Mary was carrying in her womb their Lord God.

Elisabeth did not say that Mary only bore a human who would later become God, or that she bore a human that would later become God, or that she only bore the human nature of the God. No! A mother is not a mother of a nature. A mother is a mother of a person, in this case, a divine person.

This does not mean she is is the mother of the Trinity. She is the mother of the second Person Trinity. But that does not mean that she is less of the mother of God. Jesus is not one-third God. That would make him a demigod. But the Bible say He is fully God. Colossians 2:9 says that all the fullness of Deity dwells in Jesus.

It does not mean that she existed before God. She only existed before God became man. It does not mean that she has authority over God. A mother of a president does not mean she has power over the president in running the country. Mary considered herself her Lord's maidservant. Imagine that! In Luke 1:38, she considered herself the maidservant of the Child she was bearing (the exact of opposite of the women who abort the child they are bearing).

But she is the mother of the Lord. And what son would treat his mother as if she was just a servant. I know that if my mother was still alive and I somehow came into a lot of money, I would want my mother to live in my mansion with me. And she would be in the room right next to me. And I would expect any servants we have would treat her with the same respect they do to me. If anyone would accuse me of treating my mother any less than that I would consider it as an insult to my personally.

And yet some Christians treat our Lord as having less love for His own mother than we would have to pour own! They see that our great God and Savior is so insecure that He feels threatened if we show any love or respect to His mother! My God is too great for that! To lower the status of Mary is to lower the glory of Jesus! Denial of Mary's divine motherhood often leads to the denial of the divinity of Christ.

No matter how liberal Catholic theologians may be they do not deny the divinity of Christ. How could they deny the divinity of Christ if they believe in the Mary being the mother of God. But large segment of liberal Protestantism denies the deity of Christ. Look at the Unitarians. And the founders of the Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, non-Trinitarian Adventism and Christian Science were once Protestants. See The Rise of Protestant Liberalism | Tabletalk for liberal Protestant theologians who denied the deity of Christ.

There is a Catholic saying: Know Mary, know Jesus; no Mary, no Jesus. The less we see of Mary the less we see of Jesus. If Mary is not the mother of God then she did not bear God. If she did not bear God then Jesus may have not been God after all. Maybe He just became God later, such at His baptism, or maybe He just attained some God-consciousness. Maybe He was just a god, and maybe we all will become gods.

But having a high view of Mary gives us an even higher view of God. Mary said that her soul magnifies the Lord (Luke 1:46). When I say "praise Mary!", she then says "PRAISE JESUS"! When I think of her sinlessness, I think of the awesome majesty and purity of God. God cannot stand sin at all. It is repugnant to Him. He was not going to tolerate being in the womb of a sinful woman for nine months. No way! She must be pure as He is pure. When I think of the perpetual virginity, I again think of the utter holiness of God. No sinful man could approach the habitation of God. The ark of the covenant contained the Ten Commandments. No man could open it or even touch it! It was holy. How much more could no sinful man touch the woman who bore God! Joseph feared God too much to ever try this! All this made me see God in all His holiness. And it showed me His love.

He did not just impregnate her and then after cast herself aside and just treated her like one of her servants. No. First of all, the angel did not come to announce to her that she will be pregnant with the Son of God. Gabriel come to propose. To impregnate her without her permission would be rape! Instead, she must consent. She could freely say "yes" or "no". God gave Adman and Eve a free will. They chose to say "no". Think of all of the hardships in this fallen world because of their "no" to God. But whereas Eve said "yes" to the devil Mary said "yes" to the angel. As Even contributed to our fall, Mary contributed to our redemption. In a small way, yes, compared to what Jesus did. But she contributed. If she had said "no" to the angel then maybe God had an alternate plan. Or maybe not. Maybe her disobedience would be the last straw for God, and He will let us perish in our sins. After all, He did not come to redeem the devil and his demons. He did not have to save us. Or maybe, since God is outside of time, He knew beforehand that Mary would say yes. Whatever! I imagine that all the angels were waiting to hear her answer.


He will always treat her like His beloved mother. He crowned her as the Queen of Heaven - with twelve stars as a crown on her head and clothed with the sun (Son) . See Revelation 12. What love He had for her! It gives me comfort that He treats His mother the way we would expect a good son to treat his own mother. It comforts me in knowing that I, too, will be loved - not in the same way but I will still be loved. So Mary has not detracted away my love for Christ. Instead, she has magnified it.

Mary is not divine.

 

[concretecamper]

Certainly the scriptures are clear that all the fullness of Deity dwells in Jesus.
The doctrine of the Trinity is debatable.

Wow, what a view.

As Mass tonight, it came to me that heretical beliefs are a major contributor to the misunderstanding of Mary. Whether it is Modalism, Nestorianism, or Arianism, the underwhelming view of Christ as Divine is the reason they view The Holy Family as a normal Jewish family go along with the culture of the times.

 

[concretecamper]

Firstly.. show me where Joseph was a "holy man"... He was a carpenter. Not a rabbi.
Secondly... Why would they not follow the culture of that time? Was Joseph going to get hand outs from the town? He was a working man and working men had families.. to help with the family career and support them in their old age.
Third.. Where is the chapter and verse that indicate "perpetual virginity" When Jesus had brothers?

see my post above

 

[1Reformedman]

In Luke 1:43, Elizabeth calls Mary the mother of her Lord. Among Jews, there is only one Lord, the great I AM, Yahweh, the One who delivered the Israelites from Egypt, the One who created the heavens and the earth. Elizabeth, being filled with the Holy Spirit, said that Mary was carrying in her womb their Lord God.

Elisabeth did not say that Mary only bore a human who would later become God, or that she bore a human that would later become God, or that she only bore the human nature of the God. No! A mother is not a mother of a nature. A mother is a mother of a person, in this case, a divine person.

This does not mean she is is the mother of the Trinity. She is the mother of the second Person Trinity. But that does not mean that she is less of the mother of God. Jesus is not one-third God. That would make him a demigod. But the Bible say He is fully God. Colossians 2:9 says that all the fullness of Deity dwells in Jesus.



It does not mean that she existed before God. She only existed before God became man. It does not mean that she has authority over God. A mother of a president does not mean she has power over the president in running the country. Mary considered herself her Lord's maidservant. Imagine that! In Luke 1:38, she considered herself the maidservant of the Child she was bearing (the exact of opposite of the women who abort the child they are bearing).

But she is the mother of the Lord. And what son would treat his mother as if she was just a servant. I know that if my mother was still alive and I somehow came into a lot of money, I would want my mother to live in my mansion with me. And she would be in the room right next to me. And I would expect any servants we have would treat her with the same respect they do to me. If anyone would accuse me of treating my mother any less than that I would consider it as an insult to my personally.

And yet some Christians treat our Lord as having less love for His own mother than we would have to pour own! They see that our great God and Savior is so insecure that He feels threatened if we show any love or respect to His mother! My God is too great for that! To lower the status of Mary is to lower the glory of Jesus! Denial of Mary's divine motherhood often leads to the denial of the divinity of Christ.

No matter how liberal Catholic theologians may be they do not deny the divinity of Christ. How could they deny the divinity of Christ if they believe in the Mary being the mother of God. But large segment of liberal Protestantism denies the deity of Christ. Look at the Unitarians. And the founders of the Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, non-Trinitarian Adventism and Christian Science were once Protestants. See The Rise of Protestant Liberalism | Tabletalk for liberal Protestant theologians who denied the deity of Christ.

There is a Catholic saying: Know Mary, know Jesus; no Mary, no Jesus. The less we see of Mary the less we see of Jesus. If Mary is not the mother of God then she did not bear God. If she did not bear God then Jesus may have not been God after all. Maybe He just became God later, such at His baptism, or maybe He just attained some God-consciousness. Maybe He was just a god, and maybe we all will become gods.

But having a high view of Mary gives us an even higher view of God. Mary said that her soul magnifies the Lord (Luke 1:46). When I say "praise Mary!", she then says "PRAISE JESUS"! When I think of her sinlessness, I think of the awesome majesty and purity of God. God cannot stand sin at all. It is repugnant to Him. He was not going to tolerate being in the womb of a sinful woman for nine months. No way! She must be pure as He is pure. When I think of the perpetual virginity, I again think of the utter holiness of God. No sinful man could approach the habitation of God. The ark of the covenant contained the Ten Commandments. No man could open it or even touch it! It was holy. How much more could no sinful man touch the woman who bore God! Joseph feared God too much to ever try this! All this made me see God in all His holiness. And it showed me His love.

He did not just impregnate her and then after cast herself aside and just treated her like one of her servants. No. First of all, the angel did not come to announce to her that she will be pregnant with the Son of God. Gabriel come to propose. To impregnate her without her permission would be rape! Instead, she must consent. She could freely say "yes" or "no". God gave Adman and Eve a free will. They chose to say "no". Think of all of the hardships in this fallen world because of their "no" to God. But whereas Eve said "yes" to the devil Mary said "yes" to the angel. As Even contributed to our fall, Mary contributed to our redemption. In a small way, yes, compared to what Jesus did. But she contributed. If she had said "no" to the angel then maybe God had an alternate plan. Or maybe not. Maybe her disobedience would be the last straw for God, and He will let us perish in our sins. After all, He did not come to redeem the devil and his demons. He did not have to save us. Or maybe, since God is outside of time, He knew beforehand that Mary would say yes. Whatever! I imagine that all the angels were waiting to hear her answer.


He will always treat her like His beloved mother. He crowned her as the Queen of Heaven - with twelve stars as a crown on her head and clothed with the sun (Son) . See Revelation 12. What love He had for her! It gives me comfort that He treats His mother the way we would expect a good son to treat his own mother. It comforts me in knowing that I, too, will be loved - not in the same way but I will still be loved. So Mary has not detracted away my love for Christ. Instead, she has magnified it.

Mary was neither sinless nor a perpetual virgin nor was she divine.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Mary is not divine.

Agreed. Catholics would not claim Mary is divine. The Orthodox wouldn't claim that either.

 

[1Reformedman]

Considering the trials that Christians in other lands had to endure (see thread on Persecuted Christians), one can look at this and say the our Lord was not very affectionate to them, either.



I am not saying that anyone is coming out that Jesus is insecure. But if I was to get upset because they love and respected my mother, then I would have deep, emotional problems. The implication of saying this about Jesus is that He would have insecurity issues, even if that is not the intention.



Not really. I mentioned the article about liberalism in Protestantism. These scholars are mainline. Also, see Mainline Protestant - Wikipedia.



I did not say that the cults are Protestant. I said that the FOUNDERS of these cults were Protestants - meaning before they started the cults. They would not have fallen into these heresies if they had Catholic presuppositions.

Oh please the 95 thesis was all about RCC heresy,.

 

[1Reformedman]

Wow, what a view.

As Mass tonight, it came to me that heretical beliefs are a major contributor to the misunderstanding of Mary. Whether it is Modalism, Nestorianism, or Arianism, the underwhelming view of Christ as Divine is the reason they view The Holy Family as a normal Jewish family go along with the culture of the times.

what's interesting is your pope Quote is unbiblical. Salvation is not predicated on being a catholic. Its predicated upon the whole counsel of God's will.

 

[Peter J Barban]

If the Bible directly says that Mary is the mother of God, then I am OK with the phrase. Otherwise, we should be content to say the Mary is the mother of the Lord as the OP mentions.

Let's not go beyond the word of God.

Why not be content with Mary as the mother of the Lord?

 

[Kenny'sID]

In Luke 1:43, Elizabeth calls Mary the mother of her Lord. Among Jews, there is only one Lord, the great I AM, Yahweh, the One who delivered the Israelites from Egypt, the One who created the heavens and the earth. Elizabeth, being filled with the Holy Spirit, said that Mary was carrying in her womb their Lord God.

Elisabeth did not say that Mary only bore a human who would later become God, or that she bore a human that would later become God, or that she only bore the human nature of the God. No! A mother is not a mother of a nature. A mother is a mother of a person, in this case, a divine person.

This does not mean she is is the mother of the Trinity. She is the mother of the second Person Trinity. But that does not mean that she is less of the mother of God. Jesus is not one-third God. That would make him a demigod. But the Bible say He is fully God. Colossians 2:9 says that all the fullness of Deity dwells in Jesus.

It does not mean that she existed before God. She only existed before God became man. It does not mean that she has authority over God. A mother of a president does not mean she has power over the president in running the country. Mary considered herself her Lord's maidservant. Imagine that! In Luke 1:38, she considered herself the maidservant of the Child she was bearing (the exact of opposite of the women who abort the child they are bearing).

But she is the mother of the Lord. And what son would treat his mother as if she was just a servant. I know that if my mother was still alive and I somehow came into a lot of money, I would want my mother to live in my mansion with me. And she would be in the room right next to me. And I would expect any servants we have would treat her with the same respect they do to me. If anyone would accuse me of treating my mother any less than that I would consider it as an insult to my personally.

And yet some Christians treat our Lord as having less love for His own mother than we would have to pour own! They see that our great God and Savior is so insecure that He feels threatened if we show any love or respect to His mother! My God is too great for that! To lower the status of Mary is to lower the glory of Jesus! Denial of Mary's divine motherhood often leads to the denial of the divinity of Christ.

No matter how liberal Catholic theologians may be they do not deny the divinity of Christ. How could they deny the divinity of Christ if they believe in the Mary being the mother of God. But large segment of liberal Protestantism denies the deity of Christ. Look at the Unitarians. And the founders of the Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, non-Trinitarian Adventism and Christian Science were once Protestants. See The Rise of Protestant Liberalism | Tabletalk for liberal Protestant theologians who denied the deity of Christ.

There is a Catholic saying: Know Mary, know Jesus; no Mary, no Jesus. The less we see of Mary the less we see of Jesus. If Mary is not the mother of God then she did not bear God. If she did not bear God then Jesus may have not been God after all. Maybe He just became God later, such at His baptism, or maybe He just attained some God-consciousness. Maybe He was just a god, and maybe we all will become gods.

But having a high view of Mary gives us an even higher view of God. Mary said that her soul magnifies the Lord (Luke 1:46). When I say "praise Mary!", she then says "PRAISE JESUS"! When I think of her sinlessness, I think of the awesome majesty and purity of God. God cannot stand sin at all. It is repugnant to Him. He was not going to tolerate being in the womb of a sinful woman for nine months. No way! She must be pure as He is pure. When I think of the perpetual virginity, I again think of the utter holiness of God. No sinful man could approach the habitation of God. The ark of the covenant contained the Ten Commandments. No man could open it or even touch it! It was holy. How much more could no sinful man touch the woman who bore God! Joseph feared God too much to ever try this! All this made me see God in all His holiness. And it showed me His love.

He did not just impregnate her and then after cast herself aside and just treated her like one of her servants. No. First of all, the angel did not come to announce to her that she will be pregnant with the Son of God. Gabriel come to propose. To impregnate her without her permission would be rape! Instead, she must consent. She could freely say "yes" or "no". God gave Adman and Eve a free will. They chose to say "no". Think of all of the hardships in this fallen world because of their "no" to God. But whereas Eve said "yes" to the devil Mary said "yes" to the angel. As Even contributed to our fall, Mary contributed to our redemption. In a small way, yes, compared to what Jesus did. But she contributed. If she had said "no" to the angel then maybe God had an alternate plan. Or maybe not. Maybe her disobedience would be the last straw for God, and He will let us perish in our sins. After all, He did not come to redeem the devil and his demons. He did not have to save us. Or maybe, since God is outside of time, He knew beforehand that Mary would say yes. Whatever! I imagine that all the angels were waiting to hear her answer.


He will always treat her like His beloved mother. He crowned her as the Queen of Heaven - with twelve stars as a crown on her head and clothed with the sun (Son) . See Revelation 12. What love He had for her! It gives me comfort that He treats His mother the way we would expect a good son to treat his own mother. It comforts me in knowing that I, too, will be loved - not in the same way but I will still be loved. So Mary has not detracted away my love for Christ. Instead, she has magnified it.

Packerman, you have made many kind comments about Mary, and in reply, three questions:

May I ask if you agree it's ok to bow down to a statue of the Mary?

If yes, is that biblical?

And what do you think the Actual Mary would think of what has become of her name?

 

[zoidar]

Truly Mary is unique, and special. By her fiat, she has given us life, hope, and joy.

No one else bore the saviour, through her fragile body came salvation into the world. God met man, man met God. In that sense she is truly unique.

 

[JacksBratt]

I'm sorry. I presumed that being a Protestant and all that you knew your Bible. That you knew that the Magnificat was Mary's prayer found at the beginning of the Gospel of Luke. I didn't know that you didn't know that. Luke 1: 46-56.

They? The Magnificat is Scripture and nothing but Scripture. At least in my Bible.

I did and you didn't even know. The reflexive anti-Catholic thing kicked in and blinded you.

Nothing here states anything about her being "Saved by being protected from sin instead of saved after sinning".


Let's go through this ( never heard it called a "magnificat", but OK)

Luke 1:46-56 King James Version (KJV)
46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
Should all our souls not "magnify the Lord"?

47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Right here she knows that she needs and has a savior.

48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

True, we all know that she was blessed.

49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.
50 And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.

Great scripture. Truth and hope here.


51 He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.

52 He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree.

53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.

54 He hath helped his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy;

55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.

More truth about our savior.

 

[JacksBratt]

I did and you didn't even know. The reflexive anti-Catholic thing kicked in and blinded you.

It's not "anti-catholic". It's just that I will point out when people claim things that the bible says..... when it doesn't say it.

 

[JacksBratt]

No one else bore the saviour, through her fragile body came salvation into the world. God met man, man met God. In that sense she is truly unique.

You can look at it that way... however, Salvation did not come to the world through her body. Salvation came through that baby she bore living a sinless life and dying on the cross.
Every person born has a mother that did what Marry did..
Mary has no claim to the honor of what Christ did on the cross.
She only did what every other mother has done one, two, three or more times... Gave birth to a child.

 

[JacksBratt]

see my post above

I read it. What "heretical" beliefs?

 

[packermann]

There's not much "interpretation" required. Anyone familiar with the Gospels knows the events I had in mind. It's not that I prefer it that way, but it's undeniable; and we could, if you wish, go through all the relevant moments in Christ's life in order to show that it is so. We could then talk over how they might some us something other than the apparent coolness that Jesus showed towards his mother.

I was talking about Revelation 12. It is here that we Catholics see the Jesus the King of all loved Mary the Queen of the Universe. Protestants cannot agree on the interpretation of Revelation 12. Is the woman Israel? Is the woman the church? There is much interpretation required. And Revelation is not one of the Gospels.

Take another look at that post.

You wrote: "But large segment of liberal Protestantism denies the deity of Christ. Look at the Unitarians. And the founders of the Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, non-Trinitarian Adventism and Christian Science were once Protestants.

First of all, I wrote a large segment of liberal Protestantism. I did not write the largest segment of Protestantism.

Second, I only wrote that the Unitarians are part of Protestantism. Now I hate to bring this up but I am left with no choice. I would rather talk about Mary. You wrote before that most do not consider them to be part of Protestants. In post #2, you wrote that these religious bodies are "customarily considered" not to be Protestant. How was custom done? Who started this custom? Did he have the authority to institute this custom? Is this custom infallible?

Was there a ballot box were every Protestant vote on who was qualified to join, sort of a Protestantism club? Or was an an elite group of experts that determined who is Protestant and who is not? Now, I was Protestant for 15 years. I do not recall voting them in to have the authority to speak for me. Did they have apostolic succession? Some of the "typical" Protestant denominations you mentioned do not believe in that!

The Reformation had a common motto - sola scriptura, everything we believe must be found in the Holy Scriptures. So where in the Bible does it say that a majority of Protestants can determine who is part of the Protestant club? I myself cannot think of any verse that lists the criteria for being Protestant.

Now, I think I know what you would say: No, the Bible does not say who is Protestant, but it says who is Christian, and one must be Christian in order to be Protestant. But do all those "typical" Protestants agree on what makes a Christian? Some say infant baptism can. Some say faith. Some say that one must accept Jesus as Savior. Some say that one accept Jesus as Savior and Lord. If the Protestants cannot agree on what makes a Christ then how can being a Christian a criteria for being Protestant?

Third, I wrote of the rest:

And the founders of the Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, non-Trinitarian Adventism and Christian Science were once Protestants.

I did not write that these cults are Protestant (I could have, though. But I chose not to because I wanted this thread to be about Mary - and ultimately about Christ). I wrote that their founders were once Protestants - meaning just before they started up their cults.

 

[zoidar]

You can look at it that way... however, Salvation did not come to the world through her body. Salvation came through that baby she bore living a sinless life and dying on the cross.
Every person born has a mother that did what Marry did..
Mary has no claim to the honor of what Christ did on the cross.
She only did what every other mother has done one, two, three or more times... Gave birth to a child.

I agree that Mary is not to be glorified for what Jesus did through the cross. But, she said "yes" to bear the saviour of the world in her womb, and that courage is something for us all to be inspired by. How many wouldn't have said "no"?

 

[packermann]

I agree that Mary is not to be glorified for what Jesus did through the cross. But, she said "yes" to bear the saviour of the world in her womb, and that courage is something for us all to be inspired by. How many wouldn't have said "no"?

It has to be remembered that in that culture a woman having been caught having sex outside of marriage would be stoned to death. For Mary to say "yes" was not an easy thing to do.

Documents of this outside of the Bible bear this truth. The Jewish Talmud accused her of being a loose woman and Jesus being a bastard. A document called the Protoevangelium of James recorded the trial of Mary for adultery.

 

[Albion]

I was talking about Revelation 12.

I realize that. However, that verse isn't the be-all and end-all of the Scriptural evidence relating to the issue.

Second, I only wrote that the Unitarians are part of Protestantism. Now I hate to bring this up but I am left with no choice.

Nonsense. You volunteered that particular line of attack. And my point was mainly that it was factually wrong, not that you couldn't bring it up if you chose to do so.

But if you think you can justify the Catholic beliefs and practices concerning Mary by vilifying Protestants or Protestantism, you'd better address the views of Protestants, not groups that aren't considered to be Protestant such as Unitarians and Mormons.

You went out of your way to avoid mentioning any of the mainstream, historic, typical, large Protestant churches, even while criticizing Protestantism--and we know why you found that to be necessary.

 

[packermann]

Packerman, you have made many kind comments about Mary, and in reply, three questions:

May I ask if you agree it's ok to bow down to a statue of the Mary?

If yes, is that biblical?

And what do you think the Actual Mary would think of what has become of her name?

No. But not every that is not biblical is anti-biblical.

There are a lot of things that even Protestants do that are not in the Bible - altar call, asking Christ to come into your heart, passing the offering plate, celebrating Christmas, watching TV, listening to rock music, etc. All these are unbiblical. The Bible says nothing about these things. We are free in Christ to do these or no. We do not need a command in the Bible to do everything.

I think more of what Jesus thinks. I think Jesus is very saddened and angry on how Protestants have disrespected His own mother. I know how I would feel if people treated by own mother the way Protestants treat Jesus' mother. But the good news for Protestants is that Mary is still their mother, whether they want her or no. So Mary prays to her Son that He will not be angry with you for disrespecting her. She forgives you. She prays something what Jesus prayed on the cross: My Son forgive them for they do not know what they are doing.

 

[Albion]

No. But not every that is not biblical is anti-biblical.

There are a lot of things that even Protestants do that are not in the Bible - altar call, asking Christ to come into your heart, passing the offering plate, celebrating Christmas, watching TV, listening to rock music, etc. All these are unbiblical.

There are a lot of things that both Protestants and Catholics do that are not in the Bible. Most are completely harmless.

What matters, however, is whether what is done or believed is CONTRARY to the Bible...and that's where the reformed churches stand apart from the unreformed ones.