Mary magnifies the Lord

[packermann]

In Luke 1:43, Elizabeth calls Mary the mother of her Lord. Among Jews, there is only one Lord, the great I AM, Yahweh, the One who delivered the Israelites from Egypt, the One who created the heavens and the earth. Elizabeth, being filled with the Holy Spirit, said that Mary was carrying in her womb their Lord God.

Elisabeth did not say that Mary only bore a human who would later become God, or that she bore a human that would later become God, or that she only bore the human nature of the God. No! A mother is not a mother of a nature. A mother is a mother of a person, in this case, a divine person.

This does not mean she is is the mother of the Trinity. She is the mother of the second Person Trinity. But that does not mean that she is less of the mother of God. Jesus is not one-third God. That would make him a demigod. But the Bible say He is fully God. Colossians 2:9 says that all the fullness of Deity dwells in Jesus.

It does not mean that she existed before God. She only existed before God became man. It does not mean that she has authority over God. A mother of a president does not mean she has power over the president in running the country. Mary considered herself her Lord's maidservant. Imagine that! In Luke 1:38, she considered herself the maidservant of the Child she was bearing (the exact of opposite of the women who abort the child they are bearing).

But she is the mother of the Lord. And what son would treat his mother as if she was just a servant. I know that if my mother was still alive and I somehow came into a lot of money, I would want my mother to live in my mansion with me. And she would be in the room right next to me. And I would expect any servants we have would treat her with the same respect they do to me. If anyone would accuse me of treating my mother any less than that I would consider it as an insult to my personally.

And yet some Christians treat our Lord as having less love for His own mother than we would have to pour own! They see that our great God and Savior is so insecure that He feels threatened if we show any love or respect to His mother! My God is too great for that! To lower the status of Mary is to lower the glory of Jesus! Denial of Mary's divine motherhood often leads to the denial of the divinity of Christ.

No matter how liberal Catholic theologians may be they do not deny the divinity of Christ. How could they deny the divinity of Christ if they believe in the Mary being the mother of God. But large segment of liberal Protestantism denies the deity of Christ. Look at the Unitarians. And the founders of the Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, non-Trinitarian Adventism and Christian Science were once Protestants. See The Rise of Protestant Liberalism | Tabletalk for liberal Protestant theologians who denied the deity of Christ.

There is a Catholic saying: Know Mary, know Jesus; no Mary, no Jesus. The less we see of Mary the less we see of Jesus. If Mary is not the mother of God then she did not bear God. If she did not bear God then Jesus may have not been God after all. Maybe He just became God later, such at His baptism, or maybe He just attained some God-consciousness. Maybe He was just a god, and maybe we all will become gods.

But having a high view of Mary gives us an even higher view of God. Mary said that her soul magnifies the Lord (Luke 1:46). When I say "praise Mary!", she then says "PRAISE JESUS"! When I think of her sinlessness, I think of the awesome majesty and purity of God. God cannot stand sin at all. It is repugnant to Him. He was not going to tolerate being in the womb of a sinful woman for nine months. No way! She must be pure as He is pure. When I think of the perpetual virginity, I again think of the utter holiness of God. No sinful man could approach the habitation of God. The ark of the covenant contained the Ten Commandments. No man could open it or even touch it! It was holy. How much more could no sinful man touch the woman who bore God! Joseph feared God too much to ever try this! All this made me see God in all His holiness. And it showed me His love.

He did not just impregnate her and then after cast herself aside and just treated her like one of her servants. No. First of all, the angel did not come to announce to her that she will be pregnant with the Son of God. Gabriel come to propose. To impregnate her without her permission would be rape! Instead, she must consent. She could freely say "yes" or "no". God gave Adman and Eve a free will. They chose to say "no". Think of all of the hardships in this fallen world because of their "no" to God. But whereas Eve said "yes" to the devil Mary said "yes" to the angel. As Even contributed to our fall, Mary contributed to our redemption. In a small way, yes, compared to what Jesus did. But she contributed. If she had said "no" to the angel then maybe God had an alternate plan. Or maybe not. Maybe her disobedience would be the last straw for God, and He will let us perish in our sins. After all, He did not come to redeem the devil and his demons. He did not have to save us. Or maybe, since God is outside of time, He knew beforehand that Mary would say yes. Whatever! I imagine that all the angels were waiting to hear her answer.


He will always treat her like His beloved mother. He crowned her as the Queen of Heaven - with twelve stars as a crown on her head and clothed with the sun (Son) . See Revelation 12. What love He had for her! It gives me comfort that He treats His mother the way we would expect a good son to treat his own mother. It comforts me in knowing that I, too, will be loved - not in the same way but I will still be loved. So Mary has not detracted away my love for Christ. Instead, she has magnified it.

 

[Albion]

And yet some Christians treat our Lord as having less love for His own mother than we would have to pour own!

How do they "treat our Lord" in this regard? The New Testament does not show Jesus as being very affectionate towards his mother, but that's just what the record shows. It's not that anyone wants it to be one way or the other by pointing out this fact.

They see that our great God and Savior is so insecure that He feels threatened if we show any love or respect to His mother!

I have to say that I have never encountered anyone who fits that description, even on these forums where the topic in one way or another has come up fairly often.

No matter how liberal Catholic theologians may be they do not deny the divinity of Christ. How could they deny the divinity of Christ if they believe in the Mary being the mother of God. But large segment of liberal Protestantism denies the deity of Christ. Look at the Unitarians. And the founders of the Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, non-Trinitarian Adventism and Christian Science were once Protestants.

Well, you've just described a very small slice of "Protestant" Christianity, afraid (I take it) to admit of the existence of Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists, Christian Reformed, Presbyterians, etc. etc.

And most or all of those you did mention are customarily considered not to be Protestant anyway, but too unconventional to be so classified. All are subjects of published studies on cults.

 

[DeepWater]

Mary is not the Queen of Heaven.
Mary is not a "perpetual virgin", she had other children.
Mary is not the "mediatrix", There is ONE Mediator between God and Man, and unless Mary hung on a CROSS and DIED FOR YOUR SIN, and rose again, then she does not qualify.
Mary is not going to meet you at your death and you are never to pray to Mary.

 

[packermann]

How do they "treat our Lord" in this regard? The New Testament does not show Jesus as being very affectionate towards his mother, but that's just what the record shows. It's not that anyone wants it to be one way or the other by pointing out this fact.

Considering the trials that Christians in other lands had to endure (see thread on Persecuted Christians), one can look at this and say the our Lord was not very affectionate to them, either.

I have to say that I have never encountered anyone who fits that description, even on these forums where the topic in one way or another has come up fairly often.

I am not saying that anyone is coming out that Jesus is insecure. But if I was to get upset because they love and respected my mother, then I would have deep, emotional problems. The implication of saying this about Jesus is that He would have insecurity issues, even if that is not the intention.

Well, you've just described a very small slice of "Protestant" Christianity, afraid (I take it) to admit of the existence of Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists, Christian Reformed, Presbyterians, etc. etc.

Not really. I mentioned the article about liberalism in Protestantism. These scholars are mainline. Also, see Mainline Protestant - Wikipedia.

And most or all of those you did mention are customarily considered not to be Protestant anyway, but too unconventional to be so classified. All are subjects of published studies on cults.

I did not say that the cults are Protestant. I said that the FOUNDERS of these cults were Protestants - meaning before they started the cults. They would not have fallen into these heresies if they had Catholic presuppositions.

 

[anna ~ grace]

Thanks, Packerman! A blessed and Merry Christmas to you!

Sub Tuum Praesidium, Under Thy Protection - The American TFP

Truly Mary is unique, and special. By her fiat, she has given us life, hope, and joy.

 

[Alistair_Wonderland]

Ugh, more contentious replies. Does anyone come on this forum to genuinely learn?

Okay, I was raised Protestant, so I don't know all about how the Catholic church sees Mary. Mind if I ask a few genuine, not-accusatory questions?

1. Do all Catholics believe that Mary was a virgin all her life? If so, Jesus had brothers; do you believe they were immaculate as well, or were they adopted or something?

2. Do all Catholics believe that Mary was sinless? If so, do they believe it was by her own power or by the grace of God that she was without sin?

3. Forgive my ignorance, but I have been taught that Catholics see Mary as an intermediary between us and an angry Jesus. Is this true, and if not, then what part does Mary play?

I am an aspiring author, and while I do not explicitly state any characters' religious denominations (I try to even avoid names like "Christianity" or Buddhism"; by books are meant to be for fun, not social commentary,) a number of my characters have Catholic inspirations in their beliefs, and a better understanding of Catholicism would probably help me better represent them.

Also, I know Protestants often judge the Catholic church for their adulation of Mary, but I'm of the opinion that, so long as you believe that Jesus is the only path to Heaven, whatever else you believe is merely secondary, and while it may affect your spiritual walk, it will not affect your salvation. So while I do not agree with some of the Catholic beliefs, I see Catholics as fellow brothers in Christ. (Well, as much as I do Protestants, in any case; both denominations are filled with unbelievers claiming Christ's name and giving us both a bad name.)

 

[packermann]

Mary is not the Queen of Heaven.

In Jewish thought, the mother of the king was the queen. The Jewish King could have a harem of wives. But a Jewish king would always only one mother. She was called Queen mother. Jesus had no wives but He had a mother. So since Jesus is King then His mother would would be a Queen Mother.

Mary is not a "perpetual virgin", she had other children.

Actually, there is no verse in the Bible that says she had other children. The Bible only says that Jesus had brothers. Joseph could have been a widower with previous children. In Mark 6:3, Jesus is referred to as "THE Son of Mary", not as "A Son of Mary". He is the one and only one who is the Son of Mary, just as He is "THE Son of God" and not "A Son of God".

Not only that, is is possible that Jesus di not have any brothers as we think of the term. In the Jewish culture, there was no word for cousin. He was "the son of my father's brother" or she was "the daughter of my father's brother", etc. It was shortened to "my brother" and "my sister". And example of this is John 19:25. It says that Mary had a sister named Mary, wife of Cleopas. But unless one is George Foreman, who has two children with the same name? It makes sense that Mary, the wife of Cleopas, is the cousin of Mary.

Mary is not the "mediatrix", There is ONE Mediator between God and Man, and unless Mary hung on a CROSS and DIED FOR YOUR SIN, and rose again, then she does not qualify.
Mary is not going to meet you at your death and you are never to pray to Mary.

The mediator is a go-between. In a sense, we are all go-betweens between God and man. We preach the gospel to others and we pray to God for others. If someone asked you to pray for him would you deny him of this, saying that there only mediator between God and men. I would not! Does that mean that I am hung on a cross and died for our sins? Of course not!

Jesus is THE Mediator between God and man - because He died on the cross for us. Mary's mediatorship, as well as our mediatorship, is based on Christ's unique mediatorship for us.

 

[Halbhh]

Mary is not the Queen of Heaven.
Mary is not a "perpetual virgin", she had other children.
Mary is not the "mediatrix", There is ONE Mediator between God and Man, and unless Mary hung on a CROSS and DIED FOR YOUR SIN, and rose again, then she does not qualify.
Mary is not going to meet you at your death and you are never to pray to Mary.

Sometimes Catholics are attacked, and so they may not respond if a post seems too confrontational. I may be able to help a little here. As I understand, Catholics say they do not pray to Mary as if Mary is the one who answers prayers, but instead that they are asking various awake saints such as Mary and others to pray for them. As I understand (I'm not in the Catholic church though, so I may not get it perfectly), it's like a prayer request. (there may be more I don't know, and of course there are a huge variety of Catholics)

Perhaps you already recognize that those who have passed on but are fully in Christ are part of the Church (capital "C", Christ's Church), and so therefore they are in communion with us, with all believers. Though I'm not raised Catholic, I can recognize that this view makes sense -- that Mary is awake and could indeed pray for us. I believe now that she is awake. It's a somewhat different view than believing that all passed on believers are asleep until the 2nd coming -- in that some may be awake, though many others are not. No doubt some Catholics could add or correct or better explain.

 

[Charlie24]

Mary is not the Queen of Heaven.
Mary is not a "perpetual virgin", she had other children.
Mary is not the "mediatrix", There is ONE Mediator between God and Man, and unless Mary hung on a CROSS and DIED FOR YOUR SIN, and rose again, then she does not qualify.
Mary is not going to meet you at your death and you are never to pray to Mary.

Yes, I agree! I will add to the list that Mary is not "pure as He is pure."

 

[Halbhh]

@packermann

Mary Magnifies the Lord

When I saw the title wording I remembered a wonderful video clip I saw a few years ago from a movie of that moment, the Magnificat:

 

[Albion]

Considering the trials that Christians in other lands had to endure (see thread on Persecuted Christians), one can look at this and say the our Lord was not very affectionate to them, either.

Okay, but his mother was the issue here and you were suggesting that he treated her better than the Scriptural records him doing.

I am not saying that anyone is coming out that Jesus is insecure. But if I was to get upset because they love and respected my mother, then I would have deep, emotional problems. The implication of saying this about Jesus is that He would have insecurity issues, even if that is not the intention.

I still have to wonder if you aren't just making that up.

Not really. I mentioned the article about liberalism in Protestantism.

Then to be effective at that--to be accurate, even--you would had to have made your case USING typical Protestant denominations.

Arguably, not a single one of the religious bodies you chose to use as evidence of your claim is Protestant. They're just not Catholics.

 

[Albion]

Sometimes Catholics are attacked, and so they may not respond if a post seems too confrontational. I may be able to help a little here. As I understand, Catholics say they do not pray to Mary as if Mary is the one who answers prayers, but instead that they are asking various awake saints such as Mary and others to pray for them.

They often do say that. And many times the nature of the prayers are as you have said. However, there are plenty of prayers and devotions to Mary in which she is acknowledged by the petitioner to be able to grant the request on her own. Sometimes, the subterfuge of saying that 'her Beloved Son will not deny his mother anything she asks of him' is used, but sometimes that isn't even bothered with.

Perhaps you already recognize that those who have passed on but are fully in Christ are part of the Church (capital "C", Christ's Church), and so therefore they are in communion with us, with all believers.

That doesn't mean it is proper for us to pray TO them. It doesn't mean that they can hear us. And it doesn't mean that we can even know for sure who is in heaven rather than some other "place," and yet prayers are directed to those who have passed on anyway.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

cool story bro..

 

[concretecamper]

In Luke 1:43, Elizabeth calls Mary the mother of her Lord. Among Jews, there is only one Lord, the great I AM, Yahweh, the One who delivered the Israelites from Egypt, the One who created the heavens and the earth. Elizabeth, being filled with the Holy Spirit, said that Mary was carrying in her womb their Lord God.

Elisabeth did not say that Mary only bore a human who would later become God, or that she bore a human that would later become God, or that she only bore the human nature of the God. No! A mother is not a mother of a nature. A mother is a mother of a person, in this case, a divine person.

This does not mean she is is the mother of the Trinity. She is the mother of the second Person Trinity. But that does not mean that she is less of the mother of God. Jesus is not one-third God. That would make him a demigod. But the Bible say He is fully God. Colossians 2:9 says that all the fullness of Deity dwells in Jesus.

It does not mean that she existed before God. She only existed before God became man. It does not mean that she has authority over God. A mother of a president does not mean she has power over the president in running the country. Mary considered herself her Lord's maidservant. Imagine that! In Luke 1:38, she considered herself the maidservant of the Child she was bearing (the exact of opposite of the women who abort the child they are bearing).

But she is the mother of the Lord. And what son would treat his mother as if she was just a servant. I know that if my mother was still alive and I somehow came into a lot of money, I would want my mother to live in my mansion with me. And she would be in the room right next to me. And I would expect any servants we have would treat her with the same respect they do to me. If anyone would accuse me of treating my mother any less than that I would consider it as an insult to my personally.

And yet some Christians treat our Lord as having less love for His own mother than we would have to pour own! They see that our great God and Savior is so insecure that He feels threatened if we show any love or respect to His mother! My God is too great for that! To lower the status of Mary is to lower the glory of Jesus! Denial of Mary's divine motherhood often leads to the denial of the divinity of Christ.

No matter how liberal Catholic theologians may be they do not deny the divinity of Christ. How could they deny the divinity of Christ if they believe in the Mary being the mother of God. But large segment of liberal Protestantism denies the deity of Christ. Look at the Unitarians. And the founders of the Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, non-Trinitarian Adventism and Christian Science were once Protestants. See The Rise of Protestant Liberalism | Tabletalk for liberal Protestant theologians who denied the deity of Christ.

There is a Catholic saying: Know Mary, know Jesus; no Mary, no Jesus. The less we see of Mary the less we see of Jesus. If Mary is not the mother of God then she did not bear God. If she did not bear God then Jesus may have not been God after all. Maybe He just became God later, such at His baptism, or maybe He just attained some God-consciousness. Maybe He was just a god, and maybe we all will become gods.

But having a high view of Mary gives us an even higher view of God. Mary said that her soul magnifies the Lord (Luke 1:46). When I say "praise Mary!", she then says "PRAISE JESUS"! When I think of her sinlessness, I think of the awesome majesty and purity of God. God cannot stand sin at all. It is repugnant to Him. He was not going to tolerate being in the womb of a sinful woman for nine months. No way! She must be pure as He is pure. When I think of the perpetual virginity, I again think of the utter holiness of God. No sinful man could approach the habitation of God. The ark of the covenant contained the Ten Commandments. No man could open it or even touch it! It was holy. How much more could no sinful man touch the woman who bore God! Joseph feared God too much to ever try this! All this made me see God in all His holiness. And it showed me His love.

He did not just impregnate her and then after cast herself aside and just treated her like one of her servants. No. First of all, the angel did not come to announce to her that she will be pregnant with the Son of God. Gabriel come to propose. To impregnate her without her permission would be rape! Instead, she must consent. She could freely say "yes" or "no". God gave Adman and Eve a free will. They chose to say "no". Think of all of the hardships in this fallen world because of their "no" to God. But whereas Eve said "yes" to the devil Mary said "yes" to the angel. As Even contributed to our fall, Mary contributed to our redemption. In a small way, yes, compared to what Jesus did. But she contributed. If she had said "no" to the angel then maybe God had an alternate plan. Or maybe not. Maybe her disobedience would be the last straw for God, and He will let us perish in our sins. After all, He did not come to redeem the devil and his demons. He did not have to save us. Or maybe, since God is outside of time, He knew beforehand that Mary would say yes. Whatever! I imagine that all the angels were waiting to hear her answer.


He will always treat her like His beloved mother. He crowned her as the Queen of Heaven - with twelve stars as a crown on her head and clothed with the sun (Son) . See Revelation 12. What love He had for her! It gives me comfort that He treats His mother the way we would expect a good son to treat his own mother. It comforts me in knowing that I, too, will be loved - not in the same way but I will still be loved. So Mary has not detracted away my love for Christ. Instead, she has magnified it.

This sentiment, at one time was share by the whole of Christianity. It is sad to see how far people have moved away from the truth.

 

[concretecamper]

Okay, but his mother was the issue here and you were suggesting that he treated her better than the Scriptural records him doing.

Jesus fulfilled the 4th Commandment perfectly. I dont think any human could comprehend the way in which He treated His mother.

 

[concretecamper]

1. Do all Catholics believe that Mary was a virgin all her life? If so, Jesus had brothers; do you believe they were immaculate as well, or were they adopted or something?

The idea that Mary had other children is a rather recent novelty of an idea. The perpetual virginity of Mary has been taught since the early Church

2. Do all Catholics believe that Mary was sinless? If so, do they believe it was by her own power or by the grace of God that she was without sin?

the Church teaches, that through the merits of Christ, she was preserved from Original Sin.

3. Forgive my ignorance, but I have been taught that Catholics see Mary as an intermediary between us and an angry Jesus. Is this true, and if not, then what part does Mary play?

Absolutely not. Mary, as do the other saints in Heaven, intercedes for us before the thrown of God. As scripture and the Church teaches, intersession is efficacious.

 

[packermann]

Ugh, more contentious replies. Does anyone come on this forum to genuinely learn?


Okay, I was raised Protestant, so I don't know all about how the Catholic church sees Mary. Mind if I ask a few genuine, not-accusatory questions?

Please do!

1. Do all Catholics believe that Mary was a virgin all her life? If so, Jesus had brothers; do you believe they were immaculate as well, or were they adopted or something?

I cannot speak for all Catholics. Most Catholics do not take their Faith seriously. They only know their Faith by hearsay. My own sister thinks that the Eucharist is only a symbol and that abortion is OK. But the Catholic Church officially that Mary had no other children. That does not mean that Jesus could not have had brothers. Joseph could have been widower and had children from that marriage. The is a document written in the second century, the Protoevangelium of James, that says this. So it seems that this was the belief of the Early Church.

Another theory is that in that Jewish culture there was no word for cousin, so they would use the word "brother" or "sister". Mark 6:3 show Mary having a sister named Mary, which makes more sense if the word "sister"means "cousin".

2. Do all Catholics believe that Mary was sinless? If so, do they believe it was by her own power or by the grace of God that she was without sin?

Like the previous answer, I cannot speak for all Catholics. I cannot say all believe this, but they all should - since this is what the Church teaches.

The second question is a little trickier. It is God's sovereignty versus man's responsibility. It is all by God's grace, but we still have a free will. It is a mystery. St. Augustine said that when we pray we should pray as if it all depended on God and when we work we should work as if it all depended on us. So I would sat it was all by the grace of God and yet she was always free to say yes or no to God. But I would lean more towards it being God's doing.

3. Forgive my ignorance, but I have been taught that Catholics see Mary as an intermediary between us and an angry Jesus. Is this true, and if not, then what part does Mary play?

This is the same thing that atheists say about us Christians in general - that Jesus is an intermediary between us and an angry Father. But the Father sent His Son to die on the cross, and we Catholics believe that Jesus gave us His mother to be our mother as well. It is not that Mary loves us more than Jesus does.She could never love us more than Jesus. But Jesus understands our psychological make-up. He knows how comforting it is to have a mother.

My father and mother both loved me. But my father was more stern on me than my mother was. He had to. I understand that now. And even though Jesus loved me that He died for me, the Bible makes it clear that we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Jesus have have to judge me. Although He is all-loving he is still all-just. But Mary will not be my judge. She is like my human mother, only more so. But it is Jesus who gave me His mother.

I am an aspiring author, and while I do not explicitly state any characters' religious denominations (I try to even avoid names like "Christianity" or Buddhism"; by books are meant to be for fun, not social commentary,) a number of my characters have Catholic inspirations in their beliefs, and a better understanding of Catholicism would probably help me better represent them.

Also, I know Protestants often judge the Catholic church for their adulation of Mary, but I'm of the opinion that, so long as you believe that Jesus is the only path to Heaven, whatever else you believe is merely secondary, and while it may affect your spiritual walk, it will not affect your salvation. So while I do not agree with some of the Catholic beliefs, I see Catholics as fellow brothers in Christ. (Well, as much as I do Protestants, in any case; both denominations are filled with unbelievers claiming Christ's name and giving us both a bad name.)

I also agree that a non-devotion to Mary does not mean a Christian is going to hell. But it tremendously helps me to love Jesus. And I am not saying that I love Jesus more than any Protestant. I try not to compare myself with others. I only compare myself to my old self. I love Jesus more than before. I believe a devotion to Mary would help anyone. That does not mean that they without Mary are not better Christians than I am with her. That is definitely possible. There was a lot of bad stuff in me that the Lord had to work with.

 

[topher694]

Every now and then I see the Mary magnifying the Lord thing blown out of proportion and made into something it is not. We ALL have the ability to magnify the Lord. When we live for Him and allow Him to change us from faith to faith and glory to glory to be more like Him, others see the our transformation and blessings and He is magnified through us.

 

[Halbhh]

Every now and then I see the Mary magnifying the Lord thing blown out of proportion and made into something it is not. We ALL have the ability to magnify the Lord. When we live for Him and allow Him to change us from faith to faith and glory to glory to be more like Him, others see the our transformation and blessings and He is magnified through us.

There's a song for that.

Psalm 34 ESV, true today, yesterday, tomorrow

 

[topher694]

There's a song for that.

Psalm 34, true today, yesterday, tomorrow

There's lots of great songs for that!