Be Prepared, The Coming Years will be Filled With Strife

Oct 15, 2008
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Make sure Father Matt knows which Banya you’re talking about!

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I think I see some truth in all this, NOT because I read about what far-away bishops do, but because of what I see on the ground, right around me, echoing it. The split extends into my very family, though it is multi-faceted and not a single fracture, but a complex one. Even I feel like Treebeard from LOTR: "I am not altogether on anyone's side, because no one is on my side." I don't mean that I am an isolationist by any means, but that I do perceive a "Russian/Greek (West)" split even in my own church. A priest who is a self-described liberal, and a number of parishioners who see Orthodoxy in a somewhat ecumenist/"all you need is 'love'" light, many of whom things like headcoverings and dress as outdated and unnecessary (as an example of one of the MANY issues raised), vs "conservatives", traditionalists, who reject those ideas and trends, and they do tend to be pro-Russian/nationalist, some imperialists, and even, sadly, Stalinists. The ones do (as far as I can tell) believe that Catholics and others don't really need to become Orthodox, and the others that there is no salvation outside the Russian Church. And I don't feel completely in tune with any of them. What can I do if my own wife thinks Pope Francis is the bee's knees and the Catholic Church as just an extension of the Orthodox Church, and some of my acquaintances* that claim to admire Chesterton also think Stalin wasn't so bad? I keep silent. I've stopped going to the banya meetings where some of the latter hang out, in part because the banya really isn't my thing, in part because I find the conversations in those directions distasteful.

But Fr Matt is right, too. What can we do? Mainly pray, if we can, and keep crawling towards Christ as best we can. Stay with the Church, receive the Sacraments, and mostly let go of the rest.

*(My hopes of making lots of friends among great Orthodox men has been generally dashed.)
 
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rusmeister

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Make sure Father Matt knows which Banya you’re talking about!
(I get you’re making a joke, though I don’t watch TV, and don’t know the reference.)
Well, where I live, it’s as natural a thing as men meeting at a coffee house or bar.
For me it’s a sad and depressing issue, the general sense of disunity, and fracturing of all relationships to some degree or other. I really struggle in a cloud of depression over it, and the feeling of being just plain alone for the most part in most contexts is huge. That’s why these divisions within the Church, where we ought to be of one heart and mind, with clear agreement in general, alarm me, not only agreement on the content of the Symbol of Faith, which some really see as “all that is required”, but on morality, and the need for personal humility, that if one must love his neighbor and his enemy, then he jolly well ought to not divorce his wife just because she may seem like an enemy at times, and if I’m told that it is more modest and humble to take off my hat in church, then I should not have reactions that are based on pride or modern thought that resist that. I ought to hold my own humility in a higher place than that, and so much the worse for me if I don’t. A lot of people don’t share the vision that we ought to submit all of what we think our own wisdom to the Church, and accept correction in everything that we find consensus on.

Having to soldier on in the face of that disunity is hard. But “Where can we go? You have the words of eternal life.”
 
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The reference was to Kenny Bania, an annoying, self-absorbed, coattails-gripping irritant on Seinfeld. Hilarious actually.

I’m not making light of your situation, though, trust me, Rus.

Being in a classroom and in a school, I don’t get through one day without a cloud of frustration and depression hitting me for at least a few minutes.

Schools now have kindergartners throwing chairs and evacuating classes while little Billy works out his frustrations, Downs Syndrome kids having full-day aides being paid to walk them around the school and sit with them in class pretending they actually know what school they’re in, 1:1 aides for “tier 3” level lunatic kids who need constant breaks, breathers, and respites, RTI reading interventions because parents refuse to read with their kids, children who are zombie-like from playing thousands of hours of Fortnite, kids eating Hot Cheetoes st 10am as a snack, and teachers wind up “in trouble” more than the kids.

People are generally obese diabetics who have the most BASIC education, Star Wars movies have lesbians doing lip locks now, everyone is covered with primitive tattoos and frisbee-sized primitive ear discs, nose rings that make girls look like Thai water buffaloes, people are willing to trade freedom for safety and security, people proudly tout how they’re “not religious, but spiritual,” homeless are EVERYWHERE, churches are used more for social connections than worship, and generally American culture is dead in this post-Christian nihilist utopia I’m living in.

Marriage isn’t easy. I’m alone A LOT!!! My wife, if she’s not on shift at the hospital, is busy with school work. And when we do talk, her brain is fried from all that is on her plate. My kids are becoming teens. They’re SUPER respectful and well-behaved as well as very faithful to Orthodoxy, but they are more aloof and like their solitude. My job is stressful, and I feel like I have a front seat to the end of Western Civilization. I do actually think Civil War 2 is extremely possible.

Within the Church there were, are, and always will be secular humanist fools and heretics and hypocritical loud mouths trying to cause trouble. I’m grateful that my parish is fairly conservative and faithful. But outside the safe walls of Orthodoxy, it’s endless forests of orcs....

(I get you’re making a joke, though I don’t watch TV, and don’t know the reference.)
Well, where I live, it’s as natural a thing as men meeting at a coffee house or bar.
For me it’s a sad and depressing issue, the general sense of disunity, and fracturing of all relationships to some degree or other. I really struggle in a cloud of depression over it, and the feeling of being just plain alone for the most part in most contexts is huge. That’s why these divisions within the Church, where we ought to be of one heart and mind, with clear agreement in general, alarm me, not only agreement on the content of the Symbol of Faith, which some really see as “all that is required”, but on morality, and the need for personal humility, that if one must love his neighbor and his enemy, then he jolly well ought to not divorce his wife just because she may seem like an enemy at times, and if I’m told that it is more modest and humble to take off my hat in church, then I should not have reactions that are based on pride or modern thought that resist that. I ought to hold my own humility in a higher place than that, and so much the worse for me if I don’t. A lot of people don’t share the vision that we ought to submit all of what we think our own wisdom to the Church, and accept correction in everything that we find consensus on.

Having to soldier on in the face of that disunity is hard. But “Where can we go? You have the words of eternal life.”
 
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Euodius

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Perhaps it's all the devote Christians that are left, shattered around the world in their own denominations, coming together to flee persecution?

Where else should we go then, but to the source? By source I'm talking about some kind of Orthodoxy obviously.

Well, that's it, isn't it. The noose is being tightened around everyone's neck. Like St. Pope Callixtus and St. Anti-pope Hippolytus embracing during their martyrdom.

This is a time for keeping one's head low and holding on to what is true. Anything added to truth - complexities, theories, opinions - these will kill us. A return to truth is what is needed, to hold onto that which we are called to be witness to, that is the only end to any schism.
 
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I will be as succinct as possible—-huh!?

I personally think that for none of this stuff to take place would mean people are trying to love one another.
 
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Dorothea

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When I read back on the various points in history where the Orthodox Church was threatened with tumult - The Advent of Communism, The Ottoman Invasion of Europe, The Rise of Islam, The Iconoclast Movement etc. I never dreamed that I would live through one of these periods myself. Yet, while I pray that my premonitions are wrong, I suspect that we are on the verge of another period of great strife.

Battle lines are being drawn in the sand, and the devil is yet again taking aim at Christ's Church on Earth. For those of us in the West, the pain will be greatest. I suspect that the following events will take place in the next few years:

  1. The Orthodox Church will Fracture along Greek and Slavic lines. This event has already begun. The Greek Church and Alexandrian Patriarchate will likely be excommunicated by the Russian Church this Friday, and the Church of Cyprus has all but announced that it too will recognize the EP. Antioch is wavering on the fence, and will too likely join the EP in time, and with the Russian Church encroaching on Georgian lands it seems possible that the Georgian Church will also back the EP. Meanwhile, the EP has encroached into the jurisdiction of the Czech Church and more schismatic churches are calling for recognition by the EP. Sadly, anyway that you look at these events, it is plain to see that there is a growing rift between the two main cultural groups of Orthodoxy.
  2. The Jurisdictional Issues in the West will only Get Worse. As we all know, the jurisdictional issues of the Orthodox Church outside of its traditional hearth have always been contentious, but these issues are likely to only get worse in light of the Orthodox fracture. Some groups will change jurisdictions, others will disintegrate and fracture, but the biggest issue will be with the rifts that come from the aforementioned Greek and Slavic split. As things stand, members of the Russian Church abroad are not allowed to attend Greek Churches, but as more mother churches take sides this problem will only grow. Soon, some jurisdictions will be completely isolated from one another, and parishioners will be left confused about where to go and who they can commune with. This would not be a problem if all the Orthodox parishes in say the United States were under a single jurisdiction, but alas, they are not.
  3. The Greeks Will be Tempted to Join Rome. Just as the Council of Florence almost reunited the two churches a millennia ago, with the EP getting close to Pope Francis and even participating in Roman Liturgics it seems possible that Bartholomew will begin a reproachment process with the Roman Church. This should come as no surprise to anyone, given the friendship of the two leaders and their past statements. For the EP, who is alone and isolated in Turkey, and who has seen his office's power wane over the years, this would be an amazing accomplishment to carry out. History would remember him as a great unifier, rather than a forgettable Wikipedia stub. Perhaps the Romans would also put pressure on the Turkish Government to restore the EPs power and institutions. It would be a win-win for Bartholomew.
  4. Converts Will be Disenfranchised. Lured to Orthodoxy by its unity, but its lack of a Pope. Many converts will become disenfranchised by the Church as it fractures. They will see it as being rife with politicking, power struggles, and insincerity. Already, people in the West are confused and scared by the events abroad, and in their weakened state the lure of false religion could become tempting.
  5. The Culture War will Continue. As all this is going on, the culture war will continue. The war on the unborn, on people of faith, and on moral values has been ongoing for some time and it will not stop anytime soon. While the church fights internally, the devil will continue to chip away at our young.

While I pray that none of this will happen, and while you will likely see it as alarmism, I am writing this so that we can focus on preparing. We must be prepared for this worst-case scenario, and our parishes and people must begin to talk about how we will preserve our unity even in the face of what is happening in the world. Now is the time to do this, let us not wait until it is too late.
Interesting. I'm not sure about what you are thinking will happen, but I've been following the prophesies of Saints Paisios, Joseph the Hesychast, and Elder Ephraim, and what's the closest event that seems to be in front of us is WWIII, with Turkey starting it. Here's what a spiritual son of Saint Joseph said about this whole thing:

J: There will be a war, and wars, and we will experience great difficulties. World power has now been seized by the Jews, and their goal is to annihilate Christianity. The wrath of God will be such that all those secret foes who are bringing about this state of affairs will be destroyed themselves. It is for this purpose, in particular, that the wrath of the Lord is being sent down: in order to destroy them, in one way or another. But this should not unduly frighten us, because we must always have hope in God. Because thousands, millions of martyrs, including our New Martyrs, suffered in exactly the same way, and we must be prepared for this and not be unduly frightened. There must be patience, prayer and hope in Divine providence, on out part. Let us pray for the renaissance of our Christianity after this war, after everything that awaits us, in order that the Lord might truly give us the strength to restore all this. But this evil will have to be endured.

P.: And how soon will Russia be reborn after that?

J.: Everything has now begun; now, there will be a great explosion. Following this, there will be rebirth.

P.: Many icons, now, are streaming myrrh. We have an icon of the Saviour, which is exuding blood.

J.: And here, in Greece, too, many are streaming myrrh. The word is that the Saviour is weeping, and the Mother of God is weeping, and the icons weep.

P.: They bring an icon, and there is a clump of blood on it, like this: it's a paper icon and so fragrant..., imagine. They took it in for analysis and it turned out that this was plasma.

J.: This is the beginning of these events, troublesome events, military ones... The movers and shakers of this evil are the Jews. They are being prompted to do this by the devil, in order to start this... in order to destroy the seed of Orthodoxy in Greece and in Russia. This will be their chief obstacle to world domination. And they nevertheless will compel the Turks to come here, to Greece, in order to begin their work; and Greece, although she has a government, does not, in reality, have a government, as such. She lacks strength, and the Turks will come here. This will be the moment when Russia, too, will move her forces, in order to repel the Turks. Events will develop thus: when Russia goes to Greece's aid, the Americans and NATO will attempt to prevent this, in order that there might be no union, no merger, between two Orthodox nations. They will also arouse other powers, such as the Japanese and others. There will be great slaughter upon the territory of the former Byzantine Empire. Of those who perish, there will be some 600 million, alone. The Vatican will also participate greatly in all this, in order to impede the growing role of Orthodoxy and prevent such unification. Thus will Divine providence find its fulfillment.

P.: Of course. All the prerequisites exist for this, for all these events. But there is also the fact that there is such opposition in the media. World hierarchs ... {illegible} .... And how long will the president maintain this line? Is it a good one that he is holding to now?

J.: God will permit the destruction of all those who are sowing these temptations, inappropriate contentography and drug addiction. And the Lord will so blind their minds that they will destroy one another without receiving any satisfaction therefrom. The Lord will permit this precisely in order to bring about a great purging. As concerns Putin, that time will not last long, and there will be an immediate war, and he will not be around for long. But, following this extensive cleansing, there will be a great renaissance of Orthodoxy, not only in Russia, but throughout the entire world; such a great surge of Orthodoxy. The Lord will extend His blessing, His Grace, just as had been the case in the first few centuries. Then, when people went to the Lord with an open heart... This will last for 3 - 4 decades, then the dictatorship of the antichrist will quickly set in. These are the terrible events that we must endure; let them not frighten us, because the Lord will shelter His own. Yes, we will surely experience difficulties, hunger, and even persecution and much else, but the Lord will not abandon His own. And those who are placed in positions of authority should compel their subjects to be with the Lord, the more; to abide in prayer, the more; and the Lord will shelter His own. The condition that will prevail following the cleansing will be one of a great renascence.


Also, my son watched a video the other day where Elder Ephraim visited a couple (spiritually--vision). They went to their priest about it because they were worried about splits in the Orthodox Church. He'd said to not worry, after the war (WWIII), amends between the Patriarchs would happen through an ecumenical council that will address many issues that haven't been addressed before. If I find the video, I'll post it.

Lastly, a group of college students were talking with Saint Paisios a year or two before he died (so in the early 1990s), and he, too, talked about this WW, and how Turkey was going to impede on Greece's waters and land, and Russia would come and defeat Turkey, etc. He also said Russia would return Hagia Sophia to the Greeks. He told the students that this will happen in their lifetime, not his. He pointed at one one and said he'd be helping to renovate/rebuild Hagia Sophia.

So, yes, things are coming about, if you've been following what's been going on with Turkey's aggression toward Syria, its invading Libya, and Russia helping to protect Syria and the Christians (Russia has been the savior in helping the Christians in the M.E. more than any other country). Been watching all of this closely on RT. It's terrible the amount of deaths that will occur from the upcoming war, but I can't help but long for those peaceful 3-4 decades (if these prophecies do come to fruition....I am more of the belief they will) for the sake of my children.
 
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Dorothea

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It was things like that, and the general worldliness in the Greek church near my mother’s home (as well as focus on ethnic festivals rather than on evangelism, etc) where she was “trying out” Orthodoxy, that, along with doctrinal issues, convinced my mother that the Greeks didn't have the truth, whereas her Muslim chiropractor and his crowd seemed a lot more pious and legitimate, leading her where she is now.

How we behave in church matters.
Not all Greek Orthodox Churches are overly ethnic and the ones we've attended haven't had doctrinal issues. My home parish is wonderful, as well as the church we went to in Lancaster, PA. Don't want to paint too broad a brush there on us Greek Americans. :)
 
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Dorothea

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There are probably other specifically Greek secret societies also. College Sororities use Greek letters / names etc.

I wonder if Antiochian Parishes have these same problems.


.
Just for the record, most every Orthodox Church I've been a member of has been Greek Orthodox, and none of them have had secret societies or its members were masons. Doesn't mean there aren't any. I'm just saying that in my experience of being a member of a handful of GOCs, we didn't encounter this.
 
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rusmeister

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Not all Greek Orthodox Churches are overly ethnic and the ones we've attended haven't had doctrinal issues. My home parish is wonderful, as well as the church we went to in Lancaster, PA. Don't want to paint too broad a brush there on us Greek Americans. :)
Sure. I did say "the Greek church near..." and not "the GOA" or "all Greek churches", and going on what she was telling me while she was there.
 
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Markie Boy

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So related sort of - as I'm still in the RCC - but learning more about the East as time permits - and enjoying it.

I recently attended a Mass held in a home by a priest not affiliated with a dioceses. Don't ask me the details of how he works - but thing is there are some realizing they have to not be under the thumb of lukewarm, or worldly bishops. In order to really do God's work, they simply can't have all their strings pulled by bishops more concerned with balance sheets and programs, than the Gospel.

This priest left all the financial security of being a diocesan puppet. Don't let anyone fool you - the average Catholic priest has regular income, health care, pension, paid vacation, I even recently learned they have maids and don't have to clean their own homes quite often. He left that to do what he sees as God's work.

Jesus Christ has been at odds with the world since the start - but today many of our bishops are "of the world".
 
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Dorothea

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Sure. I did say "the Greek church near..." and not "the GOA" or "all Greek churches", and going on what she was telling me while she was there.
Ah. Ok. :)
 
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ArmyMatt

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So related sort of - as I'm still in the RCC - but learning more about the East as time permits - and enjoying it.

I recently attended a Mass held in a home by a priest not affiliated with a dioceses. Don't ask me the details of how he works - but thing is there are some realizing they have to not be under the thumb of lukewarm, or worldly bishops. In order to really do God's work, they simply can't have all their strings pulled by bishops more concerned with balance sheets and programs, than the Gospel.

This priest left all the financial security of being a diocesan puppet. Don't let anyone fool you - the average Catholic priest has regular income, health care, pension, paid vacation, I even recently learned they have maids and don't have to clean their own homes quite often. He left that to do what he sees as God's work.

Jesus Christ has been at odds with the world since the start - but today many of our bishops are "of the world".

Lord have mercy
 
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Lukaris

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I have to say nationalistic prophecies do not seem to be encouraging. Sometimes I think an emphasis on martyrs obscures failure in evangelism. Anymore I just try to look for a silver lining any person may have in their belief system in which at least the Lord’s commandments ( Matthew 19:16-19) might be kept along the lines St. Paul mentions in Romans 2. This sure gives us plenty to pray for as we hope for our salvation ( Romans 11:22).
 
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