*Liberal Christians Only* Discussion of Trump's Impeachment

[GACfan]

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I would like to discuss Trump's impeachment and the implications of it with other liberal Christians. I thought the liberal Christian sub-forum would be the best option to have such a discussion. If you are a liberal Christian, then I'd like to know your thoughts on his impeachment and what happens next.

Do you think the impeachment is a wise or unwise political move of the Democrats?

Do you think Trump will be removed from office or do you think he will be acquitted?

I look forward to the responses from my fellow LIBERAL Christians.

 

[bekkilyn]

I would like to discuss Trump's impeachment and the implications of it with other liberal Christians. I thought the liberal Christian sub-forum would be the best option to have such a discussion. If you are a liberal Christian, then I'd like to know what your thoughts are on his impeachment.

Do you think the impeachment is a wise or unwise political move of the Democrats?

I don't know at this point if it was politically wise, but I do believe it was necessary. Trump's criminal behavior and lack of moral character make him completely unfit for the office and there was a moral obligation to at least attempt to remove him.

Do you think Trump will be removed from office or do you think he will be acquitted?

I look forward to the responses from my fellow LIBERAL Christians.

I would be happy enough to see him removed, but I have no illusions that he will be removed. It may actually be wiser for the longer term in some respects for him to remain since a more sane and competent person with the same authoritarian vision may actually be able to make more progress towards destroying our democracy and constitution.

At the same time though, the right thing to do nonetheless is to attempt to (legally) remove him since ends do NOT justify the means.

 

[dzheremi]

I assume by the context that you mean politically liberal, so I hope you don't mind me posting here, as I'm a centrist, but I definitely lean more to the left on most issues than the right (I'm officially a "No Party Preference" voter, though I will probably end up voting Democratic because I requested a mail-in ballot featuring their candidates this year; I don't even know who the Republicans have on offer if not Trump).

Can I confess something here? I don't really understand what the long goal is with this impeachment. I mean, I agree with the article itself on abuse of power, but what is the point of doing this when it will just be shot down by the Republican-controlled Senate, where the Democrats are 20 votes short of guaranteeing conviction, and that would be the scenario if all of the Democrats voted to impeach (and there are signs that the Democrats are not nearly as united on this as the Republicans are on their defense of Trump, like what's-his-name switching parties or Gabbard voting "present" in the House).

So for Trump to be successfully convicted, there would have to be a lot of defections from the Republican Party, and I just don't see it. I don't know what the Democrats think they're doing, but it doesn't seem very realistic to hope for a conviction. Maybe it's a more general protest move, but in that case I don't think it's a very good idea either, because it doesn't really do anything but expose how weak and divided they are.

 

[Silmarien]

Do you think the impeachment is a wise or unwise political move of the Democrats?

I'd say that it was necessary, since the situation is reminiscent of Watergate, but I really do think it's very unwise politically. It distracts from the primary season, and too many independents and disenchanted conservatives are going to see it as politically motivated.

Do you think Trump will be removed from office or do you think he will be acquitted?

I think he could shoot someone in broad daylight in the middle of Pennsylvania Avenue and the Republicans would acquit him.

 

[JackRT]

I believe that he is becoming increasingly unhinged for at least two reasons:
1. the sheer pressure of the job on a person who is completely unqualified to meet the demands.
2. the additional pressure of being forced to defend himself and his ego against any criticism and now the impeachment.
Some of his recent public utterances have been increasingly erratic, sometimes insulting and increasingly divorced from reality.

I see little hope of the trial before the senate resulting in his removal. The best possible scenario would be for Trump to resign the Presidency but I don't think that will happen either.

This Presidency has been a disaster for the American people and their high ideals. A second term might destroy those ideals completely and even the Constitution itself.

There is an ancient Chinese curse --- "May you always live in interesting times." These are certainly interesting times.

 

[archer75]

I don't see under what imaginable circumstances the Senate convicts him. They should, of course. But they won't, despite that most of them seem to know just what be is, and most don't like it. My best guess is that they're just afraid of the wrath of the base.

Wise move...I don't know. Don't know what Pelosi has up her sleeve. Maybe nothing.

Certainly it won't turn off anyone who was ALREADY not a Trump supporter.

And won't change the minds of any who are unwaveringly loyal to Trump.

So—what does it do to actual swing voters? No idea.

It's good that he's officially as stained as it comes. Apart from actually being forced out.

Who knows...maybe Pelosi sits on the articles until X or some particularly weak moment when DT officially declare his hatred for Christians or something, then she sends them over and the Senate is forced to convict. And he's out.

The weird thing is that the Senate could get a MUCH more stable and together Republican president in there for a year if they just convicted him. But they have to obey the rules of this cult.

 

[Silmarien]

Certainly it won't turn off anyone who was ALREADY not a Trump supporter.

You know, I'm not actually sure this is true. I think the silent majority of Democratic voters are politically detached enough that they could potentially get annoyed enough with their party to vote against them out of spite. (I follow Spanish politics also, and they ran into a weird situation about a month ago where a not insignificant number of socialistic voters were angry enough at their party's incompetence to vote for the far right reactionary party instead. Getting fed up is something that happens.)

Hopefully this won't happen, but I don't know what sort of effect a long, drawn out impeachment trial is going to have. Might depend on which side puts together a better PR campaign over it, and I'm not sure I trust the Democrats to even recognize the danger.

 

[archer75]

You know, I'm not actually sure this is true. I think the silent majority of Democratic voters are politically detached enough that they could potentially get annoyed enough with their party to vote against them out of spite. (I follow Spanish politics also, and they ran into a weird situation about a month ago where a not insignificant number of socialistic voters were angry enough at their party's incompetence to vote for the far right reactionary party instead. Getting fed up is something that happens.)

Hopefully this won't happen, but I don't know what sort of effect a long, drawn out impeachment trial is going to have. Might depend on which side puts together a better PR campaign over it, and I'm not sure I trust the Democrats to even recognize the danger.

Huh. Well. Maybe so. I thought that any reliable D voter was not in the "Trump loyalist" camp, and therefore was against T, even if not audibly rabid about it. But maybe you are right.

The Ds do seem worse at optics than the Rs...

 

[GACfan]

I have my doubts about his impeachment, but I know we'll have to wait and see what happens next. But I have to shake my head at some people who are insisting that Trump hasn't been impeached.

 

[Silmarien]

Huh. Well. Maybe so. I thought that any reliable D voter was not in the "Trump loyalist" camp, and therefore was against T, even if not audibly rabid about it. But maybe you are right.

The Ds do seem worse at optics than the Rs...

Yeah, I don't really know. All we really hear from are Trump supporters and his critics, so it's hard to say how many people are watching from the sidelines, unhappy with both groups, even from within the Democratic Party. I honestly find some of the liberal anti-Trump mania a bit off-putting myself, so I can imagine that some people might be really annoyed about it.

I'm more worried about the Democratic schism than the impeachment, though. I worry that the progressives will refuse to vote for a moderate candidate, and the moderates will refuse to vote for a progressive candidate, and we will lose no matter what.

 

[bekkilyn]

Yeah, I don't really know. All we really hear from are Trump supporters and his critics, so it's hard to say how many people are watching from the sidelines, unhappy with both groups, even from within the Democratic Party. I honestly find some of the liberal anti-Trump mania a bit off-putting myself, so I can imagine that some people might be really annoyed about it.

I'm more worried about the Democratic schism than the impeachment, though. I worry that the progressives will refuse to vote for a moderate candidate, and the moderates will refuse to vote for a progressive candidate, and we will lose no matter what.

Personally, I plan to vote for whoever the Democratic nominee ends up being, though my preference of course is Bernie and then Warren, and I've been extremely unhappy with the Democratic party for a long time due to their milquetoast centrism and Third Way neo-liberalism. Even so, even the worst of their candidates is better than any Republican at this point.

 

[archer75]

Yeah, I don't really know. All we really hear from are Trump supporters and his critics, so it's hard to say how many people are watching from the sidelines, unhappy with both groups, even from within the Democratic Party. I honestly find some of the liberal anti-Trump mania a bit off-putting myself, so I can imagine that some people might be really annoyed about it.

I'm more worried about the Democratic schism than the impeachment, though. I worry that the progressives will refuse to vote for a moderate candidate, and the moderates will refuse to vote for a progressive candidate, and we will lose no matter what.

Agree with what I bolded. For sure. Mania unnecessary, useless. And exhausting. Those susceptible to it were infected by the disease they hated...and didn't notice or care, I guess.

Yeah, what I italicized is always the threat to the left, right? Always makes me ill.

 

[GACfan]

Personally, I plan to vote for whoever the Democratic nominee ends up being, though my preference of course is Bernie and then Warren, and I've been extremely unhappy with the Democratic party for a long time due to their milquetoast centrism and Third Way neo-liberalism. Even so, even the worst of their candidates is better than any Republican at this point.

I'm leaning the same way. Personally speaking, I will not vote for a Republican. I was thinking that I would never vote for a Republican who supported Trump, but now I feel like cutting all ties with the Republican Party. I'm unhappy with the Democratic Party too, but I'm absolutely disgusted with the current Republican Party. As a registered Independent, I would vote for a Republican if I thought the candidate was the better choice. However, I don't think I can bring myself to vote Republican again.

 

[dzheremi]

Yeah, I don't really know. All we really hear from are Trump supporters and his critics, so it's hard to say how many people are watching from the sidelines, unhappy with both groups, even from within the Democratic Party. I honestly find some of the liberal anti-Trump mania a bit off-putting myself, so I can imagine that some people might be really annoyed about it.

I'm more worried about the Democratic schism than the impeachment, though. I worry that the progressives will refuse to vote for a moderate candidate, and the moderates will refuse to vote for a progressive candidate, and we will lose no matter what.

I am one of those people you are describing (not at home in either party), and I will be voting Democratic this year even though I don't really want to, in the sense that I am not particularly enthused by any of the candidates. I share your concern about a schism within the party even though I am not formally a member of it myself, because if there simply isn't a viable candidate out there who can attract all types of Democratic voters to their own party's platform, it's going to be mighty tough (perhaps impossible) to find a serious challenger to the GOP, since the GOP clearly doesn't seem to care at all about personal adherence to party ideology (let alone ideological purity) so long as they get someone in who will do their bidding, as we have seen with the nomination of Trump and the continued defense of his antics by party loyalists. I honestly think that's what the modern Democratic party is missing -- party loyalists, rather than in-group/smaller coalition loyalists.

 

[bekkilyn]

I am one of those people you are describing (not at home in either party), and I will be voting Democratic this year even though I don't really want to, in the sense that I am not particularly enthused by any of the candidates. I share your concern about a schism within the party even though I am not formally a member of it myself, because if there simply isn't a viable candidate out there who can attract all types of Democratic voters to their own party's platform, it's going to be mighty tough (perhaps impossible) to find a serious challenger to the GOP, since the GOP clearly doesn't seem to care at all about personal adherence to party ideology (let alone ideological purity) so long as they get someone in who will do their bidding, as we have seen with the nomination of Trump and the continued defense of his antics by party loyalists. I honestly think that's what the modern Democratic party is missing -- party loyalists, rather than in-group/smaller coalition loyalists.

One big problem nowadays is that if you're not extreme far right, then you end up in the Democratic party by default (even if you're registered Independent or Unaffiliated), so the Democratic party leadership ends up trying to cater to everyone from center right Third Way/corporatists to moderate to center left to progressive and anywhere in between all those, and there are some pretty significant differences between all these groups.

The alt-right has all of their authoritarianism to control its base, but everyone else stuck under the Democratic umbrella is like a huge collection of cat breeds and if you try to exert control over one group, the other groups scatter in different directions.

There is simply more unity in the alt-right by default because it is in the nature of the right to be unified under an authoritarian leader of some sort. Not so much with everyone else.

So while the Democratic party does have party loyalists...what is often referred to snidely by progressives...the Democratic establishment, the party is too much of an umbrella for too many types of voters to have a huge base of party loyalists.

Add that issue on top of the issue that the Republican party's use of unscrupulous tactics such as voter suppression and gerrymandering and fear propaganda (because oftentimes it's the only way they can win), it is a wonder any Democrats ever get elected at all with everything stacked against them.

Oh and there is also the big issue of the Democratic establishment always thinking that *this* time the Republicans would be willing to work with them on bi-partisan issues and so they compromise and compromise and compromise only to have Lucy yank the ball out from under them yet again just like Charlie Brown.

I believe that the Democratic party would be better off emphasizing the policies they want to implement that would be of great help to regular, ordinary, working people (because there are really good ones) and dial down the "you need to vote for us because we're not Trump" sort of tactics.

Even if people vote for someone because they are not Trump, people also need a lot of reasons to vote *for* because that's how you get the votes from those who are *not* Democratic establishment, including people who typically don't bother to vote.

 

[hedrick]

I tended towards the view that the best way to deal with Trump was to concentrate on defeating him in the next election. From a pure ethical sense, I agree that he's a clear and present danger, and impeachment is justified. But you need to look at likely consequences. There's no way he gets convicted, and I think the Democratic party will lose politically.

 

[Silmarien]

Personally, I plan to vote for whoever the Democratic nominee ends up being, though my preference of course is Bernie and then Warren, and I've been extremely unhappy with the Democratic party for a long time due to their milquetoast centrism and Third Way neo-liberalism. Even so, even the worst of their candidates is better than any Republican at this point.

My preference is Warren (exclusively so at this point, honestly), but I'll almost certainly be voting Democratic no matter what. But I know that there are people out there who will refuse to vote for Biden, and others who will refuse to vote for Sanders, so that's more than a little worrying.

There is simply more unity in the alt-right by default because it is in the nature of the right to be unified under an authoritarian leader of some sort. Not so much with everyone else.

I more or less agree with the rest of your post, but just wanted to point out that the left does by its nature splinter to an extreme degree. The further left you get, the more problems people seem to have with compromise, so you can see parties in Europe schisming and schisming, with feuds developing between people who agree on 80% of things. It's not exclusively the result of everything besides the far right trying to gather under one banner--every single cat does often hate every other single cat.

Also, given the alliance between the right and the libertarians, I think the key is capitalism rather than authoritarianism. I have no idea why they don't fight more.

 

[archer75]

I find this thread a tiny bit heartening. Even though most of us aren't likely to worship together, it's pleasant that we can talk about these matters without losing our minds.

 

[SkyWriting]

If you are a liberal Christian, then I'd like to know your thoughts on his impeachment and what happens next. Do you think the impeachment is a wise or unwise political move of the Democrats?

The grounds are still to weak for success. A president must specifically violate the standards of his own party platform in order to get enough support for impeachment causing his removal.

 

[createdtoworship]

I have my doubts about his impeachment, but I know we'll have to wait and see what happens next. But I have to shake my head at some people who are insisting that Trump hasn't been impeached.

sorry I am not fully a democrat, but I am not fully a republican so I thought I would mention this. I think an impeachment needs both the house and the senate if I am not mistaken. the house voted for impeachment, but unless it can pass the senate it will die. But I am sure you know this. But technically there is no impeachment "yet." I won't say much more than that. But I like that you guys have a platform here and feel you can post. I posted some stuff to the political forum and got blasted by the far right. But then I have been blasted by the far left, even more so. But anyway God bless you, I am glad you guys have a platform here. Jesus is in control. If I don't like everything about Trump or Hillary, I just pray for them. God knows best. Take care (unsubscribing)