Head Coverings and Proper Church Attire

[Rusviking876]

unless the bishop of priest taps you specifically to do this, it's not your solution to propose.

You could make that argument about any other issue of faith and morals. We have an idea about how to support pro-life policies? By that argument, we are not allowed to even propose the idea to him and seek his blessing...?

Traditionally, the bishop is chosen from the local monastery. He addresses official documents with "we" not "I". He represents a community of Orthodox. So if he's not listening to anyone's but his own ideas, he's probably doing his job wrong. All due respect to our bishops as most of them are good.

That's a good question. The problem is you may not be able to. For example when Elder Ephraim opened his monastery and required women to wear headscarves it was a new concept for many Greeks. Right away it became one of the slanders against him and his monasteries. Secular Media picked up on it and the modernists were up in arms. Now why do Greek women not veil themselves to begin with??? Goes way back over 100 years ago when greeks were having an identity crisis and were required to choose between remaining Rum/byzantine greeks or reorient towards the west who were nostalgia about ancient Greece and her city states and philosophers etc. The media chose the side of western integration which was seeking in reclaiming classical Greek enlightenment values to make happy this romanticized vision of a revived ancient Greece. The headscarve was one of the casualties, the media portrayed it as a symbol of Ottomon era oppression and traditionalism..

RIP Elder Ephraim, a holy man of our times. This western orientation of Greece has not won them anything.

 

[archer75]

You could make that argument about any other issue of faith and morals.

This is not an issue of faith and morals. It's a matter of personal practice. If you're not a woman and not a major order of clergy assigned to a given parish, it's irrelevant to your practice and salvation. You should take as much notice of it as you do of whether someone is eating butter on a Friday.

 

[ArmyMatt]

You could make that argument about any other issue of faith and morals. We have an idea about how to support pro-life policies? By that argument, we are not allowed to even propose the idea to him and seek his blessing...?

Traditionally, the bishop is chosen from the local monastery. He addresses official documents with "we" not "I". He represents a community of Orthodox. So if he's not listening to anyone's but his own ideas, he's probably doing his job wrong. All due respect to our bishops as most of them are good.

no, you can seek his blessing, but then you gotta abide by his answer. you don't just take matters into your own hands, especially when it comes to something like head coverings.

 

[rusmeister]

I’ve said before that there is good reason for the practice, and good reasons can arise and disappear at different times and places. The modern Western idea effectively taught in schools, not as a fact, but as an impression left by design and choice of facts included and excluded, that women were always slaves and chattel and must compete with men for power over the other, rather than cooperate for survival, has infiltrated into the Church along with the converts and cradles raised unknowing in that crooked worldview. The idea spreads that it is somehow oppressive of women to have them cover (and the unspoken corollary that men are somehow “free” in being required to take off their hats) is now widespread in the West. The idea that both sexes should exercise humility and accept a pious tradition, whether they understand reasons for it or not, is not exactly at the forefront of these conversations. And the good reason I see in our time is the affirmation that men and women are created different and distinct, and that this should be acknowledged in external tokens such as dress, is extremely healthy in a world gone mad on denying those distinctions.

 

[Not David]

I’ve said before that there is good reason for the practice, and good reasons can arise and disappear at different times and places. The modern Western idea effectively taught in schools, not as a fact, but as an impression left by design and choice of facts included and excluded, that women were always slaves and chattel and must compete with men for power over the other, rather than cooperate for survival, has infiltrated into the Church along with the converts and cradles raised unknowing in that crooked worldview. The idea spreads that it is somehow oppressive of women to have them cover (and the unspoken corollary that men are somehow “free” in being required to take off their hats) is now widespread in the West. The idea that both sexes should exercise humility and accept a pious tradition, whether they understand reasons for it or not, is not exactly at the forefront of these conversations. And the good reason I see in our time is the affirmation that men and women are created different and distinct, and that this should be acknowledged in external tokens such as dress, is extremely healthy in a world gone mad on denying those distinctions.

Do you think it might be based on anti-Muslim ideas? Like "look how oppressive they are for covering themselves but here in the West we don't!"

 

[ArmyMatt]

Do you think it might be based on anti-Muslim ideas? Like "look how oppressive they are for covering themselves but here in the West we don't!"

to that point, there is an Albanian Orthodox soldier I know who says that in the villiage where she was raised, women didn't cover their heads because that's what Muslims do (not arguing against headcovering, just addressing your point).

 

[rusmeister]

Do you think it might be based on anti-Muslim ideas? Like "look how oppressive they are for covering themselves but here in the West we don't!"

Outside of countries directly impacted by the Islamic world, I’d say no. I’m fairly well convinced that for most women who object to headcovering in the US and Europe, it is about not appearing old-fashioned, modest and humble - such things are vices, not virtues, in the modern mind.
Again, I see no trend of men demanding a right to wear their hats in church. It seems to be a problem exclusive to women.

 

[buzuxi02]

to that point, there is an Albanian Orthodox soldier I know who says that in the villiage where she was raised, women didn't cover their heads because that's what Muslims do (not arguing against headcovering, just addressing your point).

It was done away with under Enver Hoxha. Enver was the long time communist dictator of Albania in 1967 he banned icons and beards and anything remotely Orthodox or muslim resembling. He was so radical that he even broke ties with the USSR and all the communist countries in the balkans for not being communist enough. He believed Kruschev was a capitalist sell out. His only ally became China but broke with them in 1976 for opening their markets to western manufacturing.
Anyhow since the revival of Orthodoxy in Albania its basically the same identical style as the Church of Greece

 

[ArmyMatt]

It was done away with under Enver Hoxha. Enver was the long time communist dictator of Albania in 1967 he banned icons and beards and anything remotely Orthodox or muslim resembling. He was so radical that he even broke ties with the USSR and all the communist countries in the balkans for not being communist enough. He believed Kruschev was a capitalist sell out. His only ally became China but broke with them in 1976 for opening their markets to western manufacturing.
Anyhow since the revival of Orthodoxy in Albania its basically the same identical style as the Church of Greece

well, she was born in the 90s, so most of her life has been under Abp Anastasios. so I don't think that Hoxha had that much of an impact on her upbringing.

 

[Knee V]

Marry a woman who shares your values, and live out your values together as an example to others.

 

[rusmeister]

Marry a woman who shares your values, and live out your values together as an example to others.

But often you find that even an Orthodox spouse does not entirely share your values. And you may become Orthodox after marrying, or discover disparities later in life.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Illegal TAW use of German. 10 yard penalty. Repeat first down.

Maybe you could complement women who wear headscarves and incentive your own daughters but what do I know? Ich bin der ewige Katechumen.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I’ve wanted my wife to wear a veil. Uh, not happening. 95% of the women at my Serb parish DONT wear veils. That includes our Protenica.

But often you find that even an Orthodox spouse does not entirely share your values. And you may become Orthodox after marrying, or discover disparities later in life.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I don’t act like the veil police. I’m too focused on making sure my cat’s white hair isn’t on my Reader’s cassock!

 

[Not David]

Illegal TAW use of German. 10 yard penalty. Repeat first down.

Oh rayos!

 

[~Anastasia~]

Do you think it might be based on anti-Muslim ideas? Like "look how oppressive they are for covering themselves but here in the West we don't!"

I think the general reason in our parish (few women cover) is complex. I've not delved too deeply into it but heard several things and I know it's deeply personal for the women.

I hear about it because I do cover in Church. (I picked up the habit/desire to cover during prayer from a former Anabaptist woman at a Messianic-type gathering so my own reasons for doing it are a little complex.)

But as regards to reaction against Islam, I can see that as a factor in some cases. I don't cover full-time, but I know Orthodox women who do. They have experienced issues because of "looking Muslim". And while I much prefer a very simple style that I can wear around my neck and pull it over my head as I am entering Church, not all headcoverings work that way. Sometimes I have to have everything in place before I leave the house. Let's just say I have had some valid concerns traveling alone across two cities to get TO Church while wearing a head covering that makes some people assume I am Muslim.

It can be a factor in different ways. I think it's a very complex issue overall.

But if it is approached as "enforcement" I would say men should be very careful on that point. Scriptures say that these things are for women to teach other women. And maybe more importantly we must be careful that focusing outwardly on other people's piety is a dangerous practice that can tempt us to spiritual pride and blind us to the "log in our own eye". Again a delicate balance, for the women themselves.

But I do think it's a good question to ask how we can help people to foster a sense of wanting to be pleasing to God. A great question even.

 

[Bessie]

to that point, there is an Albanian Orthodox soldier I know who says that in the villiage where she was raised, women didn't cover their heads because that's what Muslims do (not arguing against headcovering, just addressing your point).

Some of the Arabs in my parish say this same thing.

 

[Bessie]

You know - my priest's dad was also a priest and his mom hung out in circles with St. John of Kronstadt. He says that his mother claimed head covering was not a thing that was emphasized or required in Russia at that time, and she even saw female acolytes. So trying to get parishes to do it "right" seems more than a little silly. This isn't an issue that a parishioner (especially a male one) needs to worry about. If you're struggling with lust to such a degree that seeing a woman's hair during worship is causing you to stumble, you should definitely bring that up with your priest.

 

[archer75]

You know - my priest's dad was also a priest and his mom hung out in circles with St. John of Kronstadt. He says that his mother claimed head covering was not a thing that was emphasized or required in Russia at that time, and she even saw female acolytes. So trying to get parishes to do it "right" seems more than a little silly. This isn't an issue that a parishioner (especially a male one) needs to worry about. If you're struggling with lust to such a degree that seeing a woman's hair during worship is causing you to stumble, you should definitely bring that up with your priest.

There have been all kinds of practices. It's easy to get caught up in the idea of some ideal or correct practice that needs enforcement, but if you look at the actual practices even in the place and time that you look up to, things aren't so clear (as you just showed). The ROCOR is thought of as being so conservative and oriented to 19th century practice, but

1. Presbyters preach all the time in the ROCOR, which was generally not the practice in 19th-century Russia (only bishops preached).
2. St. Ignatius (Brianchaninov) thought the spiritual state of the ROC in his day was quite poor.

So, do priests preach sermons or not? Is the ROC of the 1800s to be looked to as normative or not? If it is, then why is the opinion of one of its saints to be discounted?

Etc.

 

[rusmeister]

There have been all kinds of practices. It's easy to get caught up in the idea of some ideal or correct practice that needs enforcement, but if you look at the actual practices even in the place and time that you look up to, things aren't so clear (as you just showed). The ROCOR is thought of as being so conservative and oriented to 19th century practice, but

1. Presbyters preach all the time in the ROCOR, which was generally not the practice in 19th-century Russia (only bishops preached).
2. St. Ignatius (Brianchaninov) thought the spiritual state of the ROC in his day was quite poor.

So, do priests preach sermons or not? Is the ROC of the 1800s to be looked to as normative or not? If it is, then why is the opinion of one of its saints to be discounted?

Etc.

I think framing the issue as one of "correct practice that needs enforcement" misses the legitimate idea that accepting the practice of most of the Orthodox world throughout most of its history is based on a desire to please God and live a holy and modest life, and NOT as a meaningless "rule" to be followed for no reason. I see all of these issues NOT as "We must enforce the practice on all", but as "You'll understand why it is wiser or more mature to accept it when you are older". That allows us to be completely charitable to people who "aren't there yet", while recognizing that it really is more beneficial - as long as we aren't doing it out of pride, to show off who is "more Orthodox", etc - and better for us to try to be as modest and low-key as we can in practical terms in our dress in and out of church.
I think what I said bears a little repeating: "The idea that both sexes should exercise humility and accept a pious tradition, whether they understand reasons for it or not, is not exactly at the forefront of these conversations. And the good reason I see in our time is the affirmation that men and women are created different and distinct, and that this should be acknowledged in external tokens such as dress, is extremely healthy in a world gone mad on denying those distinctions."

And again, that means applying any standards to ourselves first and foremost, and generally not worrying too much about others, as long as it's not a brother or sister (one who has already declared their desire to follow Christ, take up their cross, etc) who is WAY out of line.