Number One Flaw in Cessationism

[Acts2:38]

Everyone prays, but does everyone's prayers get answered? THAT is what I'm talking about - answered prayer. Did you know that answered prayer is the assurance that you are even pleasing to God and on your way to salvation?

Depends. If your asking to get rich, or if you can have that car you wanted since you were a child, chances are that prayer will not be answered. God knows what we need, and is not inclined to give us what we desire.

Matthew 6
31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

Furthermore, if your family member has a life threatening cancer, or MS, whatever, God surely hears the prayer of the righteous. But there is something you are not considering. That family member will either get well through the providence of God (no miracles now days) or God will call upon their soul. In the end, it is Gods will be done regardless of the outcome whether favorable to you or not.

So I dont put down a whole heap of a post, here is a link showing you what I mean about Gods providence. Miracles are no longer existent.
A Study of Divine Providence

Oh, speaking of the "will of God", I leave you with 1 Peter 2:15 and John 7:17. And we do so by using the word of God, the bible, not miracles since they ceased.

Next, I would like to know how you view that tongues today are different than that of the 1st century.

Oh that's easy.

Acts 2
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,

10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,

11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

And if that isnt convincing enough for people that love to twist up grammar and context:
Greek word for Tongue(s)

γλῶσσα glōssa, gloce-sah'; of uncertain affinity; the tongue; by implication, a language (specially, one naturally unacquired):—tongue.

1. the tongue, a member of the body, an organ of speech
   
   
2. a tongue
   1. the language or dialect used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations

More information here as well
Can Christians Speak in Tongues Today?

Take note though, even in the secular world, the writers of those times like Herodotus use the word "tongues" when referring to speech or talk that others could understand.

The tongues now days is just a bunch of garbuldygook gibberish that none on earth could understand in any language.

P.S., Congratulations on your "winner" from the number one Cessationist on the forums.

Interesting. I give you scriptural evidence, and you reply with no evidence - "what if" type scenarios (we dont need what if's, we have scripture) - and then this lovely snarky, belittling, arrogant "P.S." note.

First, did I deserve that?
I don't think so. I merely congratulated you on all that was scriptural, and corrected you on all that was not scriptural.

Is that necessary to respond like that?
I dont think so. You post a thread knowing people will come, knowing they will discuss contrary to you. The lest you could do is hold composure.

Did I disrespect you in any way?
I dont see how, but maybe you could tell me if I did. All I really done was congratulate all the correct teaching and correct all the erroneous teaching.

So maybe next time we can have a more civil debate without the belligerence?

 

[Acts2:38]

The Bible isn't perfect.

I would have figured otherwise though seeing a plethora of verses but to name a striking two:
2 Timothy 3:16-17
2 Peter 1:20-21

If the bible is not perfect, why do we even bother with it?

Something could be wrong in one spot and right in another, how are we to know which is right?

Didn't God say he is not the author of confusion? 1 Corinthians 14:33

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

I would have figured otherwise though seeing a plethora of verses but to name a striking two:
2 Timothy 3:16-17
2 Peter 1:20-21

If the bible is not perfect, why do we even bother with it?

Something could be wrong in one spot and right in another, how are we to know which is right?

Didn't God say he is not the author of confusion? 1 Corinthians 14:33

I mentioned above that there are missing books. And there are stories and preachings that were not recorded. Such as the women followers' works. There are a few minor errors. We explain them to Muslims, the latter point them out.

The Bible is not complete without all the verses about God's Spirit with and in men and women. It is always this way in each Bible book, except genealogies and wisdom and Philemon.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

2Ti 3:13 while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
2Ti 3:14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it
2Ti 3:15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

2Pe 1:11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:12 Therefore I intend always to remind you of these qualities, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have.
2Pe 1:13 I think it right, as long as I am in this body, to stir you up by way of reminder,
2Pe 1:14 since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ made clear to me.
2Pe 1:15 And I will make every effort so that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.
Christ's Glory and the Prophetic Word
2Pe 1:16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
2Pe 1:17 For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,”
2Pe 1:18 we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain.
2Pe 1:19 And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts,
2Pe 1:20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
Both quotes from the ESV

 

[Acts2:38]

I mentioned above that there are missing books.

Apologies. I re-read your post and still do not see where you mentioned that.

So I am not assuming, do you hold that the bible is the only authority by which we should teach people?

If not, we can just disregard everything from here on out and end here. I'm not trying to be belligerent in any way, I just hold that scripture is perfect and has no errors, and if you dont, we cant really have any discussion that really goes anywhere on this matter.

And there are stories and preachings that were not recorded. Such as the women followers' works.

Any proof, evidence? And is it backed by scripture (does scripture refer to these other books, are they inspired writings, do those "unrecorded" books have contradictions to scripture?

There are a few minor errors.

Where? Proof?

 

[Jermayn]

James 5:14 Are any of you sick? You should call for the elders of the church to come and pray over you, anointing you with oil in the name of the Lord.

I've never seen a cessationist church anoint anyone with oil. Why?

Also, there are people in the world who are possessed by demons. I've never seen or heard of a cessationist church (besides Catholic, if they are considered cessationists) casting out demons. Why did that stop?

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Apologies. I re-read your post and still do not see where you mentioned that.

So I am not assuming, do you hold that the bible is the only authority by which we should teach people?

If not, we can just disregard everything from here on out and end here. I'm not trying to be belligerent in any way, I just hold that scripture is perfect and has no errors, and if you dont, we cant really have any discussion that really goes anywhere on this matter.



Any proof, evidence? And is it backed by scripture (does scripture refer to these other books, are they inspired writings, do those "unrecorded" books have contradictions to scripture?



Where? Proof?

I mentioned above my long post a short one mentioning Laodicea...

The Bible and the Spirit are joined as one thing to be authority, to teach, not just the Bible alone. The Bible says so.

Martha and Mary and Mary... would have been in the Spirit and knew Jesus first hand, so their work would integrate with the apostles'.

I will have to look for an apologist web page to find the apparent contradiction first hand. There is a decimal error.

I start looking here: Internal consistency of the Bible - Wikipedia

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

James 5:14 Are any of you sick? You should call for the elders of the church to come and pray over you, anointing you with oil in the name of the Lord.

I've never seen a cessationist church anoint anyone with oil. Why?

Also, there are people in the world who are possessed by demons. I've never seen or heard of a cessationist church (besides Catholic, if they are considered cessationists) casting out demons. Why did that stop?

Nero and company.

 

[splish- splash]

What ended the Old Covenant making way for the New Covenant? Or are we still under the Law? Did Christ put New Wine into old wineskins? Do you desperately need a lesson in Covenant Theology??? Cessationists certainly do.

Christ's death was the last sacrifice and was the end and fulfillment of the Old Covenant with its laws and sacrifices, all needed because of Adam's sin. It was because of sin that the Old Covenant was needed. Christ dealt with the sin issue once and for all for all who enter His New Covenant. The giving of the Holy Spirit was the beginning of the New Covenant needed to prepare us for eternal life in heaven, where only the righteous and holy, Revelation 22:11, will live and reign with Christ. (No sinners, only children of God. John 8:32-36). Not understanding covenant theology is why there is so much false teaching about 'always being a sinner' in the Church as Cessationists have been taught and teach. It is the Holy Spirit that takes the power away from the old nature and makes us born again with a divine nature, 2 Peter 1. Christ's sacrifice and resurrection was a foreshadow of the death of our sin nature and our new life in Him. Christ ended the Law, and His death and resurrection and ascension to heaven brought us the indwelling Spirit. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ has freed us from the law of sin and death.

Covenant Theology 101. (Matthew 5:18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." In other words, nothing ceases inside a covenant until the covenant, itself, is fulfilled.) The covenant is a will and testament. Christ preached the New Covenant (like writing His will and testament while alive), but it was not put into affect until the death of the Testator, Hebrews 9:6. Out with the old; in with the NEW. Seeing Christ face to face at the second coming is when the gifts of the Spirit will no longer be necessary and will cease. That is the end of the New Covenant.

What Cessationists don't understand among many things is that even with the Bible we only get a dim view of the glory of God, like seeing Him through a dark glass. They think the gifts were only for writing the Bible, yet most of their prayers are not answered, or has prayer ceased too, because it takes gifts of the Spirit to know God's will in particular situations, to pray accurately and receive what you pray for - the sign of our assurance 1 John 3:18-24. But, don't worry, if you are a Cessationist, God won't force the gifts onto a non-believer of the gifts, so you're safe, like an agoraphobic. Not really living to the fullest, but safe.

If you notice, Christ, Himself, brought in the 1st covenant of the Ten Commandments. It was His finger. And only He can end that covenant, which He did on the cross; just as only He can start and end the New Covenant, by returning to heaven and sending His Spirit to start the covenant, and coming again in the second coming to end the covenant with its partial knowledge of God. The New Testament and everything in it, like it or not, is ours, including every gift and office. Christ did not end the New Covenant with the death of the apostles. They fulfilled their ministry to preach the New Covenant just as we are commissioned to do, and Jesus has supplied us with everything we need to sustain us through His Own Spirit, just like He did them. And it did not end with the publishing of the Bible, for the Bible is still only partial knowledge. There is a reason tongues is a "sign to the unbeliever" - to the mockers, even inside the Church, the "uninformed" - Cessationists. It is accurately called a "sign which will be spoken against" (by unbelievers). The Laodecians do not want or need all that God has for us, and the reason they are lukewarm and dull of hearing God's voice.

1st and foremost! I have to search for the definition of "Cessationism" Then maybe, I might just find my way round.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

1st and foremost! I have to search for the definition of "Cessationism" Then maybe, I might just find my way round.

Some observe an absence of the gifts of the Spirit in church history after the death of the apostles. So they think it is so. Then in 1 Corinthians 12-14, it mentions the gifts, and that tongues will cease when what is perfect comes. The straightforward interpretation of this is that the perfect thing to come is the revelation from Christ when he returns at the second coming. The passage is like a page of arrows pointing right, but striving over the meaning of one word makes it seem one points left. Teleios. This word means perfect and mature thing, and cannot refer to a person. So the cessations say the perfect thing to come is the Bible. Finished by John the apostle in 96 AD. Because Christ is not a thing.
Teleios - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

 

[Dave L]

What ended the Old Covenant making way for the New Covenant? Or are we still under the Law? Did Christ put New Wine into old wineskins? Do you desperately need a lesson in Covenant Theology??? Cessationists certainly do.

Christ's death was the last sacrifice and was the end and fulfillment of the Old Covenant with its laws and sacrifices, all needed because of Adam's sin. It was because of sin that the Old Covenant was needed. Christ dealt with the sin issue once and for all for all who enter His New Covenant. The giving of the Holy Spirit was the beginning of the New Covenant needed to prepare us for eternal life in heaven, where only the righteous and holy, Revelation 22:11, will live and reign with Christ. (No sinners, only children of God. John 8:32-36). Not understanding covenant theology is why there is so much false teaching about 'always being a sinner' in the Church as Cessationists have been taught and teach. It is the Holy Spirit that takes the power away from the old nature and makes us born again with a divine nature, 2 Peter 1. Christ's sacrifice and resurrection was a foreshadow of the death of our sin nature and our new life in Him. Christ ended the Law, and His death and resurrection and ascension to heaven brought us the indwelling Spirit. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ has freed us from the law of sin and death.

Covenant Theology 101. (Matthew 5:18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." In other words, nothing ceases inside a covenant until the covenant, itself, is fulfilled.) The covenant is a will and testament. Christ preached the New Covenant (like writing His will and testament while alive), but it was not put into affect until the death of the Testator, Hebrews 9:6. Out with the old; in with the NEW. Seeing Christ face to face at the second coming is when the gifts of the Spirit will no longer be necessary and will cease. That is the end of the New Covenant.

What Cessationists don't understand among many things is that even with the Bible we only get a dim view of the glory of God, like seeing Him through a dark glass. They think the gifts were only for writing the Bible, yet most of their prayers are not answered, or has prayer ceased too, because it takes gifts of the Spirit to know God's will in particular situations, to pray accurately and receive what you pray for - the sign of our assurance 1 John 3:18-24. But, don't worry, if you are a Cessationist, God won't force the gifts onto a non-believer of the gifts, so you're safe, like an agoraphobic. Not really living to the fullest, but safe.

If you notice, Christ, Himself, brought in the 1st covenant of the Ten Commandments. It was His finger. And only He can end that covenant, which He did on the cross; just as only He can start and end the New Covenant, by returning to heaven and sending His Spirit to start the covenant, and coming again in the second coming to end the covenant with its partial knowledge of God. The New Testament and everything in it, like it or not, is ours, including every gift and office. Christ did not end the New Covenant with the death of the apostles. They fulfilled their ministry to preach the New Covenant just as we are commissioned to do, and Jesus has supplied us with everything we need to sustain us through His Own Spirit, just like He did them. And it did not end with the publishing of the Bible, for the Bible is still only partial knowledge. There is a reason tongues is a "sign to the unbeliever" - to the mockers, even inside the Church, the "uninformed" - Cessationists. It is accurately called a "sign which will be spoken against" (by unbelievers). The Laodecians do not want or need all that God has for us, and the reason they are lukewarm and dull of hearing God's voice.

What you are missing is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit came only through the two outpourings, or through an apostle's hands.

 

[Jermayn]

Nero and company.

Nero stopped demon possession and healing?

 

[splish- splash]

Some observe an absence of the gifts of the Spirit in church history after the death of the apostles. So they think it is so. Then in 1 Corinthians 12-14, it mentions the gifts, and that tongues will cease when what is perfect comes. The straightforward interpretation of this is that the perfect thing to come is the revelation from Christ when he returns at the second coming. The passage is like a page of arrows pointing right, but striving over the meaning of one word makes it seem one points left. Teleios. This word means perfect and mature thing, and cannot refer to a person. So the cessations say the perfect thing to come is the Bible. Finished by John the apostle in 96 AD. Because Christ is not a thing.
Teleios - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

Wow! Don't we all learn something new everyday. Thanks there. Lemi try to process and do my analysis according to His Riches in Glory.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

No one here has ever heard or spoken in biblical tongues. The sign gifts have come and gone.
Many make noises and claim it is a prayer tongue, or singing in tongues, but we all know it is not.
In the OP. CL. Used the term covenant theology.
What is Covenant theology CL?

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Nero stopped demon possession and healing?

Nero and his workers killed many of the converts in Rome and the empire. So ended Peter and Paul early. They couldn't kill John and he went on to do more work. Later emperors also did this and emperor Constantine became a Christian and this meant Rome became Christian, but by rule of law and not by genuine conversion. So the church came out less gifted and then the RCC became political and put people to death... so the gifting was weak.

 

[Jermayn]

Nero and his workers killed many of the converts in Rome and the empire. So ended Peter and Paul early. They could kill John and he went on to do more work. Later emperors also did this and emperor Constantine became a Christian and this meant Rome became Christian, but by rule of law and not by genuine conversion. So the church came out less gifted and then the RCC became political and put people to death... so the gifting was weak.

Ok, that makes sense. Very interesting. Thanks.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

No one here has ever heard or spoken in biblical tongues. The sign gifts have come and gone.
Many make noises and claim it is a prayer tongue, or singing in tongues, but we all know it is not.
In the OP. CL. Used the term covenant theology.
What is Covenant theology CL?

Paul wrote that tongues edifies the one who prays, and this is not a sign.

 

[splish- splash]

No one here has ever heard or spoken in biblical tongues. The sign gifts have come and gone.
Many make noises and claim it is a prayer tongue, or singing in tongues, but we all know it is not.
In the OP. CL. Used the term covenant theology.
What is Covenant theology CL?

I personally haven't come to understand how tongues work. I've never spoken in tongues before but have mates who do. They've asked me several times why I don't speak in tongues. My answer is simple and straightforward! The Lord hasn't seen it fit so far... If the Lord can hear my prayers just as I am, then I have no complaints either.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Paul wrote that tongues edifies the one who prays, and this is not a sign.

Paul wrote that to the Corinthian church who already were using that gift. He gave instructions to them to regulate it, at that time.
Tongues were a sign for sure:
1cor14:22

 

[CharismaticLady]

Could you flesh out what you mean when you say "answered prayer"?

It seems to me that making requests is only one aspect of prayer, and even a "No.", is an answer. Three basic choices for answers to prayer requests: Yes, No, or Wait.

And PERSONALLY, I prefer not to tell God what I NEED from him. I present the problem and let him formulate the solution. How likely would Moses have ASKED God to part the Red Sea so that the Israelites could pass through? God's solutions are beyond our imagination.

Also, I believe God listens to everyone's prayers, whether saved or lost. Anyone that wants to talk to him has an audience. Even the prayers of the lost are oftentimes "answered prayers".

'No,' is not an answer according to the scriptures that I have read. But 'not listening' to prayers out of His will I have seen in scripture. Here are the three texts I know the best:

John 15:7 "If you abide in Me, and My Words abide in you, you shall ask what you want and it shall be given to you.

1 John 3:18-24 "18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him....21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us."

1 John 5:14-15 "14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.

Look through the parts not underlined. They are full of conditions.