Did the Early Church Fathers teach "Calvinism?"

reformed05

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No, that was me you asked. What isn't self explanatory about tulip?
Here's a Calvinist quote:
" grace is irresistible. That means that if God gives grace to you, there is nothing in the world that you can do to resist it and thwart God's intention to take you to heaven."
I don't find this to be true in reality or biblically.

God doesn't GIVE us grace. He has grace towards us. Saved by grace means salvation is not, cannot be earned,it is by grace. Instead of justice, we receive mercy in salvation. The point with reformed theology in irresistible grace is that it can't be resisted. If God wants to show mercy He will show mercy. The I of Tulip, isolated like that without expounding first of the T, the U and the L can't be properly understood or explained, as one flows into the next. Am not asking you to do that expounding, just saying. I will go through it if you want but it will have to be later as the timer dinged on my oven.
Anyway, who would want to thwart God's purpose to send them to Heaven? Only someone who had not been born again from Above, and thus not only able to believe but also willing.
 
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reformed05

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Patiently waiting. (#234)
sorry for th wait. The idea of the elect in Reformed Theology has nothing to do with the election of Israel. We acknowledge that Israel was a nation/ people chosen by God. He chose that nation to bring forth the Messiah, He chose that nation/people to reveal Himself to in a covenant and saving way. Israel was and IS a chosen nation. The Bible tells us that those who are in Christ are ADOPTED into Israel.
The concept of the elect in Reformed Theology is taken from the New Testament scriptures only. There are too many passages that speak of God's election of believers to list here. When I was in the free will camp there were many I saw and didn't know how to line them up with what I had been taught so began to gloss over them which I think is a very common thing. Now I cannot miss them . They are everywhere. I believe many of the ECFs saw it. Certainly the Apostles taught it. During the dark ages much was lost an d distorted and the Reformers sat down to get back to Biblical doctrine. And it remained the norm until recently, towards the end of the John Edward s era when Armenias ' s views were brought back and with it the altar call (which is fine as long s gospel content precedes it) and all kinds of heresy entered our churches.
So no, it had nothing to do with Israel's election.
 
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Sam91

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He sure understood the Book of Romans.
Romans explains calvinist view very well.
M-Bob
Oh no, you saw fit to quote me from a post made in August :eek:

I was going to post a link to refute your opinions because although I can think of a few verses in Romans, I do not want to engage in quibbling over scripture at this time. I have decided against it because the quibbling could still occur but about the link. Sorry, but it is fruitless.

2 Timothy 2:14
 
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Al Touthentop

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John 5:40
But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

John 7:7 The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it that its works are evil.

John 15:18 [ The World’s Hatred ] “If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you.

John 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

1 John 3:13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you.

Jesus chose his apostles because of their obedience.

Look at John 5:40 which you've quoted above. There is Jesus telling men that they refuse, of their own accord, not to obey. This "willingness" is their own choice. If it isn't, then there was never a need to preach the gospel. Those who are given the special sauce will find God, those who God doesn't provide the "will" will go to hell.

None of those passages give any credence to the idea that men are imbued with salvation or some special ability prior to making a choice of their own free will to follow Jesus. As a mater of fact, Peter was very specific about when the Holy Spirit is given. It is after obedience, not before.

32And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”

Jesus commanded people to do things and some of them did not do them. Those who obeyed he called friends. At no point did he ever say something like, "it's a good thing God changed your heart so you could be a Christian."

In fact he lamented when people refused (of their own will) to obey his commands.
“But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? 47 Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was [j]founded on the rock. 49 But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it [k]fell. And the ruin of that house was great.”

Now, Jesus also repudiated the idea of "total depravity" - a phrase never found in the Bible - by calling Abel, "Righteous."
34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

Here's Abel, one generation from Adam, being called Righteous by Jesus himself. If Adam brought physical corruption into all the following generations through sexual relations, Abel could never have been considered righteous. Nor could Zacharias and his wife Elizabeth. They should have been tainted with this strange thing called "original sin." Yet, when the Holy Spirit inspired Luke to write his gospel, it appears he forgot to tell him about John Calvin's or Augustine's views on the subject.

There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Paul called himself blameless under the law. When Paul quoted the old testament, "There is no one righteous, no not one", he was quoting hyperbole. He knew it was hyperbole because there were plenty of righteous men written about in the Old Testament, Abraham and Noah two early examples. And why were they righteous? Because they obeyed the will of God.
 
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Al Touthentop

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God doesn't GIVE us grace. He has grace towards us. Saved by grace means salvation is not, cannot be earned,it is by grace. Instead of justice, we receive mercy in salvation. The point with reformed theology in irresistible grace is that it can't be resisted. If God wants to show mercy He will show mercy. The I of Tulip, isolated like that without expounding first of the T, the U and the L can't be properly understood or explained, as one flows into the next. Am not asking you to do that expounding, just saying. I will go through it if you want but it will have to be later as the timer dinged on my oven.
Anyway, who would want to thwart God's purpose to send them to Heaven? Only someone who had not been born again from Above, and thus not only able to believe but also willing.

God's grace toward mankind was the gospel. Grace isn't a special sauce that he bestows on some and not others. The idea of limited atonement is one not ever described in the Bible. Not even in the old testament did God show partiality. The very definition of limited atonement is partiality.

The meaning behind the words "I will show mercy to whom I will show mercy" was not a statement of arbitrary grace, it was a statement of authority. Man doesn't make the rules, God does. So in order to obtain salvation a person has to conform to what was preached.

Everyone is eligible as Christ made known.

John 12: 32And I, if I am [e]lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” 33 This He said, signifying by what death He would die.

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

If salvation is limited to those who God "chooses" in some arbitrary, magical injection of the Spirit, then:

1. Paul was a liar. (For there is no partiality with God)
2. There is no necessity to preach anyone the gospel. In fact the command to preach it is unnecessary, therefore, Jesus was misleading his disciples.
 
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reformed05

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God's grace toward mankind was the gospel. Grace isn't a special sauce that he bestows on some and not others. The idea of limited atonement is one not ever described in the Bible. Not even in the old testament did God show partiality. The very definition of limited atonement is partiality.

The meaning behind the words "I will show mercy to whom I will show mercy" was not a statement of arbitrary grace, it was a statement of authority. Man doesn't make the rules, God does. So in order to obtain salvation a person has to conform to what was preached.

Everyone is eligible as Christ made known.
[QUOTE="Al Tout
Nobody but you said grace was a special sauce, so don't put words in my mouth in order to trivialize what I have said. Grace is NOT the gospel. The gospel TEACHES us about the grace that saves. That is faith in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus and Jesus alone to save us. We don't now or ever DESERVE this salvation, it is a gift. Grace.
Limited atonement is all over the Bible and the definition of limited atonement is NOT partiality. It means Jesus had a specific and definite purpose in dying on the cross. He did not die to save everyone, obviously (if that were the case He did not achieve His purpose.) So whether you believe God chooses or people do, the atonement is LIMITED to believers. Is this partiality? I believe the "sheep of His pasture" are specific people God chose as it is also taught many places in scripture,but actually that is neither here no there in this post. The OT is FULL of God choosing one person over another, one nation over another. In fact He did ALL the choosing. And you are right that isn't teaching partiality though your reasoning and mine start from a different premise. It can't be partiality because the rest of scripture teaches that such a thing doesn't exist in God. It is ALL God fufilling HIS purposes and who are we to argue with God. We need to quit weighing God by our utterly limited and HUMAN way of interrpreting His word and COMPARE scripture to scripture.








If salvation is limited to those who God "chooses" in some arbitrary, magical injection of the Spirit, then:

1. Paul was a liar. (For there is no partiality with God)
2. There is no necessity to preach anyone the gospel. In fact the command to preach it is unnecessary, therefore, Jesus was misleading his disciples.
 
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reformed05

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If salvation is limited to those who God "chooses" in some arbitrary, magical injection of the Spirit, then:

1. Paul was a liar. (For there is no partiality with God)
2. There is no necessity to preach anyone the gospel. In fact the command to preach it is unnecessary, therefore, Jesus was misleading his disciples.
I have said this so many times it is becoming frustrating. God's choices, whether of people or nations or anything else are NEVER ARBITRARY. Was His choice of Israel or Jacob or David or anything arbitrary? What an unreliable God He would be if He were even CAPABLE of being arbitrary. Such a thing does not EXIST in Him. THINK ABOUT THAT. He has a REASON, and the only thing we know about His reason is that NO MERIT IS FOUND in the one He chooses. It is not a MAGICAL INJECTION OF THE SPIRIT as you say, once again attempting to trivialize beliefs that are different from yours.
As to the assumption that if God chooses there is no reason to preach the gospel that is a statement devoid of All reasoning. How can anyone possibly believe (the necessity for salvation) something they have never heard? "How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they belive in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent?" Romans 10:14,15
 
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reformed05

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A
I have said this so many times it is becoming frustrating. God's choices, whether of people or nations or anything else are NEVER ARBITRARY. Was His choice of Israel or Jacob or David or anything arbitrary? What an unreliable God He would be if He were even CAPABLE of being arbitrary. Such a thing does not EXIST in Him. THINK ABOUT THAT. He has a REASON, and the only thing we know about His reason is that NO MERIT IS FOUND in the one He chooses. It is not a MAGICAL INJECTION OF THE SPIRIT as you say, once again attempting to trivialize beliefs that are different from yours.
As to the assumption that if God chooses there is no reason to preach the gospel that is a statement devoid of All reasoning. How can anyone possibly believe (the necessity for salvation) something they have never heard? "How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they belive in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent?" Romans 10:14,15
A P. S. To Al
When people are criticizing Reformed Theology they throw that WORD arbitrary around sarcastically as as though it were a big intellectual word. It simply means random for no paticular reason.
 
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timothyu

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Is anyone here today descendant from anyone there in the first century or so ?
Quite possibly. The British Isles and Europe (hence North and South America) are descendants of the scattered 10 tribe nation of Israel NNE of Judah.
 
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Al Touthentop

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I have said this so many times it is becoming frustrating. God's choices, whether of people or nations or anything else are NEVER ARBITRARY. Was His choice of Israel or Jacob or David or anything arbitrary? What an unreliable God He would be if He were even CAPABLE of being arbitrary. Such a thing does not EXIST in Him. THINK ABOUT THAT. He has a REASON, and the only thing we know about His reason is that NO MERIT IS FOUND in the one He chooses. It is not a MAGICAL INJECTION OF THE SPIRIT as you say, once again attempting to trivialize beliefs that are different from yours.
As to the assumption that if God chooses there is no reason to preach the gospel that is a statement devoid of All reasoning. How can anyone possibly believe (the necessity for salvation) something they have never heard? "How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they belive in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent?" Romans 10:14,15


I am pretty sure that you are not preaching Calvanism. So far we agree. It's as if you're arguing against what I've written by agreeing.

Calvanism does not accept free will, posits the doctrine of original sin or sin nature and says that God's election is arbitrary in relation to a man's will. You seem to be defending something you don't fully understand. Are you defending Calvinsim?
 
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reformed05

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I am pretty sure that you are not preaching Calvanism. So far we agree. It's as if you're arguing against what I've written by agreeing.

Calvanism does not accept free will, posits the doctrine of original sin or sin nature and says that God's election is arbitrary in relation to a man's will. You seem to be defending something you don't fully understand. Are you defending Calvinsim?
 
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reformed05

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Al
I was not preaching Calvinism or anything else. I am Reformed, do not believe man has free will in regard to choosing salvation,because of the fall, I believe in original sin which is not referring to the first sin but the result of the first sin. It originates IN us. We are born with sin IN us. I have no idea how you interpreted what I said as agreeing with you. I was not and am not defending what you call Calvinism. I have no obligation or desire to do so. I was merely coming against your statement that Calvinists believe that if God CHOOSES people His choice is ARBITRARY. Calvinists do NOT SAY THAT OR BELIEVE THAT!! If His choice was arbitrary that would mean He had no REASON for His choice. That is what ARBITRARY MEANS! God chooses AND He has a REASON for why He chooses who He does. He is not sitting in Heaven saying arbitrarily, "this one,and maybe that one and how about that one over there" We don't KNOW His reason,we only know it isn't because of any merit in us.
Your statement that Calvinists believe God's election is arbitrary in relation to man's will doesn't even make any sense. What does that even mean?
I understand Reformed Theology very well. It is you I think who don't understand what I am saying. At all. Not even the meaning of the word arbitrary.
 
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Butch5

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Dr. Ken Wilson reveals how Augustine's doctrine of "election" is the true source of what has come to be known as "Calvinism".

Augustine was attempting to explain how infants could become the "elect" through water baptism.

Since the child had not come to faith, it must be based on the will of another.
It must be determined by God, instead of the infant.



.
No, the Ante-Nicene father did not teach Calvinism. Augustine was a Manichean before becoming a Christian. He held to Fatalism and he read that into the Scripture to come up with his doctrines.
 
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crossnote

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Paul was Augustine's influence. You can see this in Romans 9. Also Augustine was Luther's and Calvin's influence.
Was it Paul or the Holy Spirit?

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
(2Ti 3:16)
 
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crossnote

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God chooses AND He has a REASON for why He chooses who He does. He is not sitting in Heaven saying arbitrarily, "this one, and maybe that one and how about that one over there" We don't KNOW His reason, we only know it isn't because of any merit in us.
If we don't know God's reason 'why' He chooses, how do we know for sure He has a reason or that it isn't arbitrary?
(Note: I'm not arguing the theology on this point, I am questioning the logic.)
 
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Dave L

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Was it Paul or the Holy Spirit?

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
(2Ti 3:16)
Of course it was the Holy Spirit. God's word is Spirit.
 
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reformed05

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If we don't know God's reason 'why' He chooses, how do we know for sure He has a reason or that it isn't arbitrary?
(Note: I'm not arguing the theology on this point, I am questioning the logic.)

because of everything God has revealed about Himself. His character and attributes. Because of who He is, it is impossible for Him to be arbitrary or without a reason in anything. Otherwise He wouldn't be God.
 
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