Theology of Humility

[packermann]

The Lord has been teaching me a lot of humility lately. Here are my thoughts on how humility is the key to all the other virtues. The opposite of humilty is pride. Pride is a barrier to all virtues and all happiness.

1. Pride is a hindrance to faith. It seems to me that most of the arguments against God appeals to our pride. It is like the devil whispering in our ear: Come on, you are smarter than this! We now trust in science, not silly superstitions of the past!

We forget that with all our learning, we are still very ignorant of how things are. We know not even a teeny bit of what is out in the universe. Humility would make us realize that God is too great that we can figure out and reject.

Humility would make us realize that apart from Christ we can do nothing. He is the vine and we are the branches. In looking back, I realize that the times I fell was when I no longer rested in Christ.

I realized that the best thing when you are tempted with doubts, is to get on your knees and pray for God's help. He has never failed me when I did this. That was Eve's big mistake. Instead of praying to God, she tried to reason with the devil. I would encourage you not to do this without prayer. The devil is far too cunning for us. Be humble enough to admit it and rely on God to fight your battles.

2. Pride is a hindrance to love. Pride makes me think that I am the center of everything. I use God and others for myself. I may be even so filled with pride that not do not realize how self-centered I am.

Modernism says that the key to love is self-love; I cannot love others until I first love myself. Many Christians buy into this - that the reason we cannot have loving relationships is because we have a negative self-image. The more we feel good about ourselves the more we can love.

I used to buy into this - but no more. This is the deception of Lucifer, who fell because he had such a good self-image that he thought he could be greater than God! This is not the teachings of Jesus. Blessed are the poor in spirit! He who seek to gain his life (and self-esteem) will lose it, but he who loses his life (self-esteem) for my sake will gain it.
I realized that I need to see everyone as better than I, that everyone is more interesting than I, that everyone's problems are more important than mine, that everyone is more interesting than I. And, of course, I realized that I need to see that God is better than I, that God is more interesting than I, that God's glory more more important than mine. And the more I realize these things, the more I feel good about myself.

3. Pride brings about depression. It makes me throw a pity party for myself. Poor me! Why do I have such a lousy job? Why do I have such a lousy spouse? Why do I have such rotten kids? Why can't I have a car like my neighbor? Why can't I be thin like the other guy? Why can't I have friends like this other guy? Why am I spending this Saturday on this forum instead of being on a date? Why am I not married? Why can't we have children? Why do we have children? Why am I stuck with being me?

Pride is saying to yourself that you are too good not have things better - a better spouse, a better car, a better self. We see the glass half-empty instead of seeing it half-full. But humility is seeing it no matter how little there is in the glass it is still a lot more than you deserve. We deserved hell, if Christ did not save us. We deserved the worst of the worst. So no matter how much or how little there is in the glass, we praise God for it and we rejoice in what we have. It is more than what we should have received.

4. Pride keeps you from finding the truth. Each one of us have temptation to find a knowledge that most Christians do not have. So we deviate from the truth. We have itching ears. We want the new ideas that fill us with pride because most Christians do not think that way. We can then look down on other Christians for not seeing this higher form of knowledge as we do.

We must be humble to realize that if most Christians do not see what we see, then it is probably because we are wrong. It is not only Christians today. That would be chronological snobbery. It is looking at all Christians since the time of Christ. A Jehovah Witness once knocked on my door. I let him in and we discussed scripture verses for an hour. For every verse I had he had one on his side. He was feeling pretty smug about this. But when he was about to leave I asked him a question that took that smile off his face: "Your religion just started in the last hundred years, and most Christians even today do not agree with your beliefs. What are the odds that your small group has it right and every else has it wrong?" He went away without a smile.

Don't think I am this real humble guy. I am not. I just had to apologize to someone on this forum for my pride and my judgmental attitude. I think the moment you think you are humble then you have lost it. So I am not there yet, and I must not ever think that I have ever arrived. But at least I see the value of humility and the ugliness of pride. That is helpful.

Thoughts?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

But we also need confidence and self respect. How else can we put ourselves out there to proclaim? It is a balance.

 

[anna ~ grace]

The litany of humility is good!

Litany of Humility | EWTN

 

[Dave-W]

Modernism says that the key to love is self-love; I cannot love others until I first love myself. Many Christians buy into this - that the reason we cannot have loving relationships is because we have a negative self-image. The more we feel good about ourselves the more we can love.

"Love your neighbor as your self."

Do I really want to be loved by a neighbor (as he loves himself) if he is suicidal?

 

[Dave-W]

But we also need confidence and self respect. How else can we put ourselves out there to proclaim? It is a balance.

Indeed. I was raised in a faith tradition that said self hatred was a virtue. Any kind of letting anyone know your strengths and abilities was the sin of pride/arrogance.

 

[packermann]

But we also need confidence and self respect. How else can we put ourselves out there to proclaim? It is a balance.

My own personal experience is that I lack boldness because of pride. Pride makes me worry what people think of me. Humility makes me not care at all what others think of me. God respect is needed instead of self-respect. Another way to say God respect is to say the fear of God. I can't God but God can. When I am weak I am strong (2 Corinthians 12:10) because then Christ can work through me.

 

[packermann]

"Love your neighbor as your self."

Do I really want to be loved by a neighbor (as he loves himself) if he is suicidal?

It is not how you receive love but how you love.

Anyway, we are no longer to love others as we love ourselves. Christ has give us a NEW commandment, one not in the OT (John 13:34). That one is far more more radical that the one in the old covenant. Now, we are commanded to love others as Christ loves us which is far more than we could ever love ourselves.

 

[packermann]

Indeed. I was raised in a faith tradition that said self hatred was a virtue. Any kind of letting anyone know your strengths and abilities was the sin of pride/arrogance.

Paul called himself the least of all apostles (1 Corinthians 15:9) and the chief of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15). That can be construed as self-hatred. But we are called to be imitators of Paul as he is of Christ (1 Corinthians 11:1).

 

[Dave-W]

My own personal experience is that I lack boldness because of pride.

Any boldness or even confidence was considered pride and self promotion.

 

[packermann]

Any boldness or even confidence was considered pride and self promotion.

I agree that this was wrong. In my view, true humility will make you bold and confident - because your confidence is not in yourself at all but in the indwelling Christ. But we must go through the cross in order to get to resurrection (Philippians 3:10-11). We must first realize that apart from Christ we can do NOTHING (John 15:5) before we can ever realize that we can do ALL things through Christ who strengthens us (Philippians 4:13).

Peter's denial of Christ devastated him. But this was what made him rely so much on the Holy Spirit after Pentecost and be filled with so much boldness that he refused to obey the Sanhedrin even if it meant his death.

 

[fhansen]

The Lord has been teaching me a lot of humility lately. Here are my thoughts on how humility is the key to all the other virtues. The opposite of humilty is pride. Pride is a barrier to all virtues and all happiness.

1. Pride is a hindrance to faith. It seems to me that most of the arguments against God appeals to our pride. It is like the devil whispering in our ear: Come on, you are smarter than this! We now trust in science, not silly superstitions of the past!

We forget that with all our learning, we are still very ignorant of how things are. We know not even a teeny bit of what is out in the universe. Humility would make us realize that God is too great that we can figure out and reject.

Humility would make us realize that apart from Christ we can do nothing. He is the vine and we are the branches. In looking back, I realize that the times I fell was when I no longer rested in Christ.

I realized that the best thing when you are tempted with doubts, is to get on your knees and pray for God's help. He has never failed me when I did this. That was Eve's big mistake. Instead of praying to God, she tried to reason with the devil. I would encourage you not to do this without prayer. The devil is far too cunning for us. Be humble enough to admit it and rely on God to fight your battles.

2. Pride is a hindrance to love. Pride makes me think that I am the center of everything. I use God and others for myself. I may be even so filled with pride that not do not realize how self-centered I am.

Modernism says that the key to love is self-love; I cannot love others until I first love myself. Many Christians buy into this - that the reason we cannot have loving relationships is because we have a negative self-image. The more we feel good about ourselves the more we can love.

I used to buy into this - but no more. This is the deception of Lucifer, who fell because he had such a good self-image that he thought he could be greater than God! This is not the teachings of Jesus. Blessed are the poor in spirit! He who seek to gain his life (and self-esteem) will lose it, but he who loses his life (self-esteem) for my sake will gain it.
I realized that I need to see everyone as better than I, that everyone is more interesting than I, that everyone's problems are more important than mine, that everyone is more interesting than I. And, of course, I realized that I need to see that God is better than I, that God is more interesting than I, that God's glory more more important than mine. And the more I realize these things, the more I feel good about myself.

3. Pride brings about depression. It makes me throw a pity party for myself. Poor me! Why do I have such a lousy job? Why do I have such a lousy spouse? Why do I have such rotten kids? Why can't I have a car like my neighbor? Why can't I be thin like the other guy? Why can't I have friends like this other guy? Why am I spending this Saturday on this forum instead of being on a date? Why am I not married? Why can't we have children? Why do we have children? Why am I stuck with being me?

Pride is saying to yourself that you are too good not have things better - a better spouse, a better car, a better self. We see the glass half-empty instead of seeing it half-full. But humility is seeing it no matter how little there is in the glass it is still a lot more than you deserve. We deserved hell, if Christ did not save us. We deserved the worst of the worst. So no matter how much or how little there is in the glass, we praise God for it and we rejoice in what we have. It is more than what we should have received.

4. Pride keeps you from finding the truth. Each one of us have temptation to find a knowledge that most Christians do not have. So we deviate from the truth. We have itching ears. We want the new ideas that fill us with pride because most Christians do not think that way. We can then look down on other Christians for not seeing this higher form of knowledge as we do.

We must be humble to realize that if most Christians do not see what we see, then it is probably because we are wrong. It is not only Christians today. That would be chronological snobbery. It is looking at all Christians since the time of Christ. A Jehovah Witness once knocked on my door. I let him in and we discussed scripture verses for an hour. For every verse I had he had one on his side. He was feeling pretty smug about this. But when he was about to leave I asked him a question that took that smile off his face: "Your religion just started in the last hundred years, and most Christians even today do not agree with your beliefs. What are the odds that your small group has it right and every else has it wrong?" He went away without a smile.

Don't think I am this real humble guy. I am not. I just had to apologize to someone on this forum for my pride and my judgmental attitude. I think the moment you think you are humble then you have lost it. So I am not there yet, and I must not ever think that I have ever arrived. But at least I see the value of humility and the ugliness of pride. That is helpful.

Thoughts?

This is all very good. I'd add one thing though, maybe to shed light on one point. Aquinas taught that self-love is a natural, created good, whereas pride is a corruption of that very same good. So he referred to pride as "inordinate self-love", keeping in mind that everything God creates is inherently good-and moral evil or sin is simply a detraction or lessening or perversion of that good by choosing a lesser good, by an abuse of the gift of free will. He also described pride as an inordinate desire for one's own excellence, to see oneself as greater than they actually are IOW, epitomized by making oneself equal to God which was Adam's sin for all practical purposes. Ironically Adam actually fell, losing something of himself in the attempt at rising higher, no longer aligned with the truth of who he was-and who God is.

 

[The Liturgist]

The Lord has been teaching me a lot of humility lately. Here are my thoughts on how humility is the key to all the other virtues. The opposite of humilty is pride. Pride is a barrier to all virtues and all happiness.

1. Pride is a hindrance to faith. It seems to me that most of the arguments against God appeals to our pride. It is like the devil whispering in our ear: Come on, you are smarter than this! We now trust in science, not silly superstitions of the past!

We forget that with all our learning, we are still very ignorant of how things are. We know not even a teeny bit of what is out in the universe. Humility would make us realize that God is too great that we can figure out and reject.

Humility would make us realize that apart from Christ we can do nothing. He is the vine and we are the branches. In looking back, I realize that the times I fell was when I no longer rested in Christ.

I realized that the best thing when you are tempted with doubts, is to get on your knees and pray for God's help. He has never failed me when I did this. That was Eve's big mistake. Instead of praying to God, she tried to reason with the devil. I would encourage you not to do this without prayer. The devil is far too cunning for us. Be humble enough to admit it and rely on God to fight your battles.

2. Pride is a hindrance to love. Pride makes me think that I am the center of everything. I use God and others for myself. I may be even so filled with pride that not do not realize how self-centered I am.

Modernism says that the key to love is self-love; I cannot love others until I first love myself. Many Christians buy into this - that the reason we cannot have loving relationships is because we have a negative self-image. The more we feel good about ourselves the more we can love.

I used to buy into this - but no more. This is the deception of Lucifer, who fell because he had such a good self-image that he thought he could be greater than God! This is not the teachings of Jesus. Blessed are the poor in spirit! He who seek to gain his life (and self-esteem) will lose it, but he who loses his life (self-esteem) for my sake will gain it.
I realized that I need to see everyone as better than I, that everyone is more interesting than I, that everyone's problems are more important than mine, that everyone is more interesting than I. And, of course, I realized that I need to see that God is better than I, that God is more interesting than I, that God's glory more more important than mine. And the more I realize these things, the more I feel good about myself.

3. Pride brings about depression. It makes me throw a pity party for myself. Poor me! Why do I have such a lousy job? Why do I have such a lousy spouse? Why do I have such rotten kids? Why can't I have a car like my neighbor? Why can't I be thin like the other guy? Why can't I have friends like this other guy? Why am I spending this Saturday on this forum instead of being on a date? Why am I not married? Why can't we have children? Why do we have children? Why am I stuck with being me?

Pride is saying to yourself that you are too good not have things better - a better spouse, a better car, a better self. We see the glass half-empty instead of seeing it half-full. But humility is seeing it no matter how little there is in the glass it is still a lot more than you deserve. We deserved hell, if Christ did not save us. We deserved the worst of the worst. So no matter how much or how little there is in the glass, we praise God for it and we rejoice in what we have. It is more than what we should have received.

4. Pride keeps you from finding the truth. Each one of us have temptation to find a knowledge that most Christians do not have. So we deviate from the truth. We have itching ears. We want the new ideas that fill us with pride because most Christians do not think that way. We can then look down on other Christians for not seeing this higher form of knowledge as we do.

We must be humble to realize that if most Christians do not see what we see, then it is probably because we are wrong. It is not only Christians today. That would be chronological snobbery. It is looking at all Christians since the time of Christ. A Jehovah Witness once knocked on my door. I let him in and we discussed scripture verses for an hour. For every verse I had he had one on his side. He was feeling pretty smug about this. But when he was about to leave I asked him a question that took that smile off his face: "Your religion just started in the last hundred years, and most Christians even today do not agree with your beliefs. What are the odds that your small group has it right and every else has it wrong?" He went away without a smile.

Don't think I am this real humble guy. I am not. I just had to apologize to someone on this forum for my pride and my judgmental attitude. I think the moment you think you are humble then you have lost it. So I am not there yet, and I must not ever think that I have ever arrived. But at least I see the value of humility and the ugliness of pride. That is helpful.

Thoughts?

Humility is the beginning of wisdom. If we do not humble ourselves, we will surely be shamefully humiliated. And pride is the downfall of people whose spiritual lives are otherwise successful; monks are warned of the danger of pride in ancient books like The Sayings of the Desert Fathers. So a monk who achieves something via fasting and prayer risks losing it, because the devil will use a sense of accomplishment to inflate them with pride, and then shoot a flaming arrow to pop their vainglorious ballooned self.

So I agree with you completely. I also have struggled with pride in the past.

 

[packermann]

This is all very good. I'd add one thing though, maybe to shed light on one point. Aquinas taught that self-love is a natural, created good, whereas pride is a corruption of that very same good. So he referred to pride as "inordinate self-love", keeping in mind that everything God creates is inherently good-and moral evil or sin is simply a detraction or lessening or perversion of that good by choosing a lesser good, by an abuse of the gift of free will. He also described pride as an inordinate desire for one's own excellence, to see oneself as greater than they actually are IOW, epitomized by making oneself equal to God which was Adam's sin for all practical purposes. Ironically Adam actually fell, losing something of himself in the attempt at rising higher, no longer aligned with the truth of who he was-and who God is.

These are all good points. But...

I doubt that self-love back then is the same as self-love in modern times. We are living in the "Me" generation, where we have a heavy dosage of inordinate self-love in our culture. Self-love in our society is grabbing all the gusto you can in this life. I think that Aquinas would consider a healthy dose of self-love is a desire for eternal happiness with God for oneself. I think he would consider a healthy dose of self-love is to receive as much indulgences as you can so that your will spend less time in purgatory and more quickly enter into heaven. There is a certain amount of self-love in desiring something for yourself in the hereafter and for all eternity. But it does not mean loving this world.

I recall reading the biography of St. Thomas Aquinas. When he entered to the monastery at which he would spend the rest of his life, he did the most menial chores, not letting on how much of a genius he was. He would never raise his hand in class to display his knowledge. They called him the "Dumb Ox". It was only his teacher, St Albert the Great, who recognized his genius. And I think that he only displayed how smart he really was because he was ordered by his superiors. Even after his extreme intelligence was found out, he was still called endearingly the "Dumb Ox" for his humility.

Other saints were so humble that would put us all to shame. St. Therese of Liseux wrote her biography only when she was ordered by her superiors. The nuns at one convent were shocked to find out only on her deathbed a quiet nun who simply did her chores was actually St. Bernadette, who was visited by the Blessed Virgin Mary. Ven Solanus Casey was so humble that he accepted his role as a doorkeeper even though he was a priest, and God healed many through his prayers that people came all over the country to see him. When St. Teresa de Avila started to receive the stigmata she prayed that it would be invisible so that it would not draw attention to herself.

I am not saying that unless you have this kind of humility you will go to hell. Of course not! You do, however, need some humility - at least knowing that you are sinner in need of grace. But if we want to be more than just an ordinary Christian and be a saint, then I think the path is heroic humility.

 

[fhansen]

These are all good points. But...

I doubt that self-love back then is the same as self-love in modern times. We are living in the "Me" generation, where we have a heavy dosage of inordinate self-love in our culture. Self-love in our society is grabbing all the gusto you can in this life. I think that Aquinas would consider a healthy dose of self-love is a desire for eternal happiness with God for oneself. I think he would consider a healthy dose of self-love is to receive as much indulgences as you can so that your will spend less time in purgatory and more quickly enter into heaven. There is a certain amount of self-love in desiring something for yourself in the hereafter and for all eternity. But it does not mean loving this world.

I recall reading the biography of St. Thomas Aquinas. When he entered to the monastery at which he would spend the rest of his life, he did the most menial chores, not letting on how much of a genius he was. He would never raise his hand in class to display his knowledge. They called him the "Dumb Ox". It was only his teacher, St Albert the Great, who recognized his genius. And I think that he only displayed how smart he really was because he was ordered by his superiors. Even after his extreme intelligence was found out, he was still called endearingly the "Dumb Ox" for his humility.

Other saints were so humble that would put us all to shame. St. Therese of Liseux wrote her biography only when she was ordered by her superiors. The nuns at one convent were shocked to find out only on her deathbed a quiet nun who simply did her chores was actually St. Bernadette, who was visited by the Blessed Virgin Mary. Ven Solanus Casey was so humble that he accepted his role as a doorkeeper even though he was a priest, and God healed many through his prayers that people came all over the country to see him. When St. Teresa de Avila started to receive the stigmata she prayed that it would be invisible so that it would not draw attention to herself.

I am not saying that unless you have this kind of humility you will go to hell. Of course not! You do, however, need some humility - at least knowing that you are sinner in need of grace. But if we want to be more than just an ordinary Christian and be a saint, then I think the path is heroic humility.

Ok. Aquinas' point is that self-love is necessary and normal, natural and created, but the "self-love" you describe is actually narcissim, arrogance, pride, not self-love.

To love our neighbor as ourselves means, in regard to ourselves, to be balanced, to neither exalt oneself as pride seeks to have us do, nor to debase oneself with shame which is the flip side of pride (and not humility either), when we fail to live up to its excessive standards. It's to recognize and appreciate the basic goodness in all of God's creation.

 

[packermann]

Indeed. I was raised in a faith tradition that said self hatred was a virtue. Any kind of letting anyone know your strengths and abilities was the sin of pride/arrogance.

I was thinking of what you wrote. You bring up some good points.

I agree that self-hatred is not a virtue. A person who is always putting himself down is actually looking for someone to disagree with him. He is fishing for compliments.

Also, it sounds that your church was quick to judge others in citing their strengths and accomplishments. This is a form of pride - of feeling good about yourself by judging others. Although citing ones own strengths and accomplishments can be because of pride, sometimes it is necessary. For instance, when you apply for a job then you need to cite your strengths and accomplishments. Or it could be be done as an encouragement to others. I am not trying here to put us under the letter of the law. The letter of the law kills, but the spirit of the law gives life. This is why I love reading of the saints. I see their humility in action in different situations.

Of course, the greatest example is Jesus. Although he had the same substance of God the Father, He did not regard equality with the Father a thing to be grasped. It is like the Father saying to the Son "My Son, those people down there will go to hell unless We do something. Why don't you go down there and allow them to torture and kill You that they may be saved?" Jesus did not say to the Father "Hey, I am just as much God as You are! Why don't YOU go down there and let them torture and kill You?". No, instead, Jesus obeyed the Father where no obedience could be enforced and He obeyed to the point of death.

And at the last supper, He washed His disciples' feet - something that a slave could refuse to do. When He was tortured and killed, He did not even once curse or complain.He was like a lamb to the slaughter. What humility!

And his humility does not stop there! We Catholics believe that He comes to us in the moment of consecration of the bread of wine. Imagine that! Jesus humbly submitted to his torturers and killers. And now He submits to a priest! What humility! At the incarnation, the Son of God humbles Himself and leaves His throne of glory to become man. But in the Holy Eucharist, He humbles himself to be lower than a man, lower that any animal! He stoops down to become a "silly wafer" (as one Protestant here wrote). What humility!

 

[Dave-W]

For instance, when you apply for a job then you need to cite your strengths and accomplishments.

Their idea of applying for a job was you go for the lowest most menial work you can find. Have a PhD in nuclear physics? Apply for a job mopping the floor at a grocery store. Have an engineering degree? Go change tires at a tire store. To apply for anything higher than that was considered arrogant.

 

[packermann]

Ok. Aquinas' point is that self-love is necessary and normal, natural and created, but the "self-love" you describe is actually narcissim, arrogance, pride, not self-love.

You say tomaeto and I say tomatto. The Catholic Church would canonize saints based on their heroic attempts to virtues. I just showed how St. Thomas heroically pursued humility - what most moderns would consider as going overboard. He tried to hide his genius from others. Would people consider today that as being a sign of self-love.

Also, I want to point that St. Thomas Aquinas had a vision of Christ in all His glory in the last years of his life. After that, he said that he considered everything he previously wrote as mere dross. Could that include what he wrote of self-love?

It is also natural to hit back someone who hits you. It is natural to insult one who insults you. It is natural to give into torture if someone torturers you to accept another's god. It is natural to lust after a sexy woman. But we are called to to go against our nature. Our nature is fallen because of original sin. Even if there is some sort of healthy self-love, our fallen nature would quickly pervert it.

To love our neighbor as ourselves means, in regard to ourselves, to be balanced, to neither exalt oneself as pride seeks to have us do, nor to debase oneself with shame which is the flip side of pride (and not humility either), when we fail to live up to its excessive standards. It's to recognize and appreciate the basic goodness in all of God's creation.

So it means we should not be heroic in seeking humility. Mediocrity is king. Lets not overdo this humility thing. Let us be somewhat humble and let us be somewhat proud. Let's be somewhere in the middle, which is where everybody thinks they are anyway. Not too hot and not too cold. Just being lukewarm.

"Love your neighbor as yourself" is not a permission from our Lord that we can love ourselves. He is just making a statement of fact. We ALL love ourselves. Who does not buy his favorite ice cream? Who does not watch his favorite program? Who argues with his boss when he gives him a raise, unless the raise is not enough? We are our own best friends! That is a given. He does not have to command us to love ourselves. He know we already do!

But He gives us a NEW commandment. We must love as He loves us. And He loves us sacrificially. That is far more than loving others as we love ourselves.

 

[fhansen]

You say tomaeto and I say tomatto. The Catholic Church would canonize saints based on their heroic attempts to virtues. I just showed how St. Thomas heroically pursued humility - what most moderns would consider as going overboard. He tried to hide his genius from others. Would people consider today that as being a sign of self-love.

Also, I want to point that St. Thomas Aquinas had a vision of Christ in all His glory in the last years of his life. After that, he said that he considered everything he previously wrote as mere dross. Could that include what he wrote of self-love?

It is also natural to hit back someone who hits you. It is natural to insult one who insults you. It is natural to give into torture if someone torturers you to accept another's god. It is natural to lust after a sexy woman. But we are called to to go against our nature. Our nature is fallen because of original sin. Even if there is some sort of healthy self-love, our fallen nature would quickly pervert it.



So it means we should not be heroic in seeking humility. Mediocrity is king. Lets not overdo this humility thing. Let us be somewhat humble and let us be somewhat proud. Let's be somewhere in the middle, which is where everybody thinks they are anyway. Not too hot and not too cold. Just being lukewarm.

"Love your neighbor as yourself" is not a permission from our Lord that we can love ourselves. He is just making a statement of fact. We ALL love ourselves. Who does not buy his favorite ice cream? Who does not watch his favorite program? Who argues with his boss when he gives him a raise, unless the raise is not enough? We are our own best friends! That is a given. He does not have to command us to love ourselves. He know we already do!

But He gives us a NEW commandment. We must love as He loves us. And He loves us sacrificially. That is far more than loving others as we love ourselves.

I quoted Aquinas. Obviously neither he nor myself consider self-love to be inconsistent with humility. It was just a point that's pretty well understood by the church-and I hadn't brought it up to create argument. Pride is sinful-out of sync with God's created order-and is the primary and deadliest of sins. Self-love is not.

 

[fhansen]

So it means we should not be heroic in seeking humility. Mediocrity is king. Lets not overdo this humility thing. Let us be somewhat humble and let us be somewhat proud. Let's be somewhere in the middle, which is where everybody thinks they are anyway. Not too hot and not too cold. Just being lukewarm.

This has absolutely nothing to do with anything I wrote. God loves man enormously, unfathomably- He's not intending for us to hate ourselves. That would amount to false humility at best.

Pride, epitomized by the desire to be God, opposes God while setting a standard for man beyond his capabilities. It causes the majority of sin in this world-due to man being his own "god", no longer subjugated to God. And it backfires. When we feel superior, as if we met the false standards imposed by pride, we feel exalted, but when we fail to live up to those same standards, we feel inferior-and it's all based on pride, not putting God first above all else including ourselves. As the catechism teaches:
"398 In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good."
Pride, ironically perhaps, can be seen as self-hatred. It's to reject the truth-of who we are-in relation to who God is: wanting to be different, better, other than who we really are. And that's why shame entered the scene immediately after the original sin. And we witness this non-acceptance of our true created selves in a myriad of ways throughout this world. We're never in short supply of pride, while we can never have too much humility. So the Church teaches that, with the fall, man created enmity with God, with his fellowman, with the rest of creation, and with himself.

 

[packermann]

Their idea of applying for a job was you go for the lowest most menial work you can find. Have a PhD in nuclear physics? Apply for a job mopping the floor at a grocery store. Have an engineering degree? Go change tires at a tire store. To apply for anything higher than that was considered arrogant.

Yeah, that was was weird. To be consistent, wouldn't the pastor take a job as the janitor of the church? I doubt he did that, though.