A warning about False Teaching in the churches!

setst777

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I have, and see quite clearly that the various verses have been cobbled together apart from their proper context to prove a point. Anyone can make the Bible to say what they want that way.

To extract the truth of God's Word, one must do accurate exegesis on each verse in its context, examining who it was said to, what was said, where it was said, how the listeners understand it, and why it was said.

It is true that we must obey the gospel and the commands of Christ, but what are the commands of Christ to us? The command is to love one another as Christ loves us. That covers the whole Law and the Prophets. Also the command of God is that we believe on and total faith in Christ alone for our justification and sanctification. When we follow those commands, we are complying with every other command that Christ has given.

Furthermore, who is qualified to lay any charge of falsehood against God's elect. Does anyone know who is truly elected of God and who isn't? If it is God who justifies, and Christ gave His life on the cross for the elect, who else has the stature to make any judgment about who is genuine and who is false?

So, to make generalised accusations and against the church and its pastors of falsehood is just plain arrogance and trying to be the Holy Spirit to the church.

So, the OP's role of "Prophet" to the church is not recognised by the majority of those who are reading and responding to this thread, and because the Prophetic role has to be recognised by the whole body of Christ, then the microcosmic representation of the body of Christ in this thread doesn't recognise the OP's assertion of a Prophetic role.

Every New Testament prophecy has to be judged by those experienced in the prophetic, and most responders on this thread judge the "prophetic warnings" to be inconsistent with God's truth in His written Word.

It is true that we must obey the gospel and the commands of Christ, but what are the commands of Christ to us? The command is to love one another as Christ loves us. That covers the whole Law and the Prophets. Also the command of God is that we believe on and total faith in Christ alone for our justification and sanctification. When we follow those commands, we are complying with every other command that Christ has given.

Setst RE: Yes, obeying the command of Christ is to love others as Christ loved us is a major command. However, how can love be in our hearts if we are still enslaved to selfish ambition and what this world can offer us? You can only have one master.

That is why Christ Jesus also commands us to ‘deny ourselves, take up our crosses and follow Him to be saved.’ The Apostles taught likewise.

For instance:


Luke 9:23-26 (NIV)
23 Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me. 24 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will save it. 25 What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit their very self?

Therefore we are commanded to be holy as God is holy, to live sanctified lives onto God, just as Lord Jesus taught.

Romans 6
22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

1 Peter 1:13-20 (NIV)
13 Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming. 14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.

2 Timothy 2:19-21 (WEB)
19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription:
  • The Lord knows those who are his,” and,
  • Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord turns away from wickedness.
As a New Creature in Christ by faith, YOU are responsible to:

• to put to death the misdeeds of the body to live: Romans 8:12-13
• offer ourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness: Romans 6:18-19
• to live by and walk by the Spirit we receive so we won't fulfill the lusts of the flesh: Galatians 5:16
• to sow to the Spirit to reap eternal life: Galatians 6:8-9
• to live by the Spirit to fulfill the requirements of the whole law: Romans 8:3-4
• to take off the old self and to put on new self: Ephesians 4:24-25; Colossians 3:9-10
• to abstain from reaping to the flesh so we may enter the Kingdom of God: 1 Corinthians 6:7-10; Ephesians 5:1-6
• to live as slaves to God by which we reap holiness leading to eternal life: Romans 6:22 . .

Therefore, God sanctifies us through His Spirit that indwells the believer, but only as the believer is diligent to walk and live by the Spirit God gave the believer. See the Passages I listed above regarding the Spirit.

Furthermore, who is qualified to lay any charge of falsehood against God's elect. Does anyone know who is truly elected of God and who isn't? If it is God who justifies, and Christ gave His life on the cross for the elect, who else has the stature to make any judgment about who is genuine and who is false?

Setst RE: The Elect are those who listen to Christ Jesus and follow Him.

John 10:27-28
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

John 12:25-26
25 He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
26 If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also. If anyone serves me, him My Father will honor.

Every New Testament prophecy has to be judged by those experienced in the prophetic, and most responders on this thread judge the "prophetic warnings" to be inconsistent with God's truth in His written Word.

Setst RE: That would be nice, but what you suggest is not realistic. We have hundreds of different sects of Christianity and many pseudo-Christian sects all believing they are rightly dividing the truth of Scripture; yet, they all differ.

Besides that, we have three major contradictions (divisions) of Gospel Doctrine regarding the Gospel within mainline Christianity.

These three major division are:
  • Calvinism/Thomism/Augustine
  • Wesleyan/Arminian/Molinism
  • Tradition/Legalism
Therefore, to know the Truth, you must put aside all man-made traditions and beliefs, and then with a humble mind and prayer, read the Scriptures in context, just as you would read any other book in context, so you know what is being explained. That is the only way one will be given the Truth from God.

Why? The reason is that God reveals the Truth to the simple and humble.

Psalm 25 (WEB) 9 He will guide the humble in justice. He will teach the humble his way.

Luke 10 (WEB) 21 In that same hour Jesus rejoiced in the Holy Spirit, and said, “I thank you, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for so it was well-pleasing in your sight.”

Lord Jesus was sent by the Father to preach the Gospel to the humble and poor in Spirit to fulfill God's promise to them - and they will listen...

Isaiah 61:1-2 (WEB)
(Jesus applied this prophecy to himself)
1 The Lord Yahweh’s Spirit is on me; because Yahweh has anointed me to preach good news to the humble. He has sent me to bind up the broken hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and release to those who are bound;
2 to proclaim the year of Yahweh’s favor, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn

All through the Scriptures we are taught that God favors the humble and teaches and guides them, but He resists the proud.
 
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setst777

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False teachings....

Millions believe in the Saturday worship
Millions pray to patron Saints
Millions pray to the Mother Mary
Millions do not believe my version of rapture teaching
Millions do not believe in OSAS
Millions believe that the Baptism comes with tongues
Millions believe in a total immersion baptism
Millions do not believe in infant baptism

Am I to put these millions in hell because I consider their teaching false? There are teachings that are unique to a church congregation!

Many are called but few are chosen. They were not chosen because they did not humbly submit themselves to Lord Jesus and the Gospel.

Luke 13:22-27 (NIV)
22 Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. 23 Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?”
He said to them, 24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’
“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’
26 “Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’
27 “But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’

Hebrews 4:11-14 (NIV)
11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.
12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess.


 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Many are called but few are chosen. They were not chosen because they did not humbly submit themselves to Lord Jesus and the Gospel.

Luke 13:22-27 (NIV)
22 Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. 23 Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?”
He said to them, 24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’
“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’
26 “Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’
27 “But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’

Hebrews 4:11-14 (NIV)
11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.
12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess.

You must be surrounded by more hypocrites in your area than I have. Over the last 50 years I have been a believer, I have met very few who have not been genuinely converted believers who love Christ and put Him first in their lives.

So you are preaching to the choir if you are preaching that to me!
 
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Woke

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Also, just going to point out now that there are valid arguments both for and against pre-trib rapture; both supported by scripture. It's worth noting, too, that if we could lose our salvation, none of us would be saved because none of us deserve to be saved since our works are 'as dirty rags' before the Lord. If someone is 'unsaved' as a Christian, it probably meant they were never a Christian, to begin with.
The fact Christ said he could remove a Christian's name out of the book of life in Revelation shows salvation can be lost.

The primary argument of the guy who started this thread has to do with that fact. He cited Christian beliefs about whether Christ's following experience the great tribulation as one reason some people who claim to be Christians don't believe that. I believe a stronger reason is because many people just fail to understand words and phrases. Instead they accept what others teach who also don't understand when reading certain words and phrases either. A blind ignorance of simple language spread across the population that God allows, because it serves his purpose. How so? It contributes to identifying individuals by their choices, what they really want and not by what they say they want. Because the only people who would believe there is no accountability before God are the people who don't want that.

I don't even think they really believe it. But if they can get in groups that say that enough they feel better and safer that it just might be true. That's what God means when he said he allows them to believe a lie. It serves his purpose in separating people.

The idea that accountability before God that shapes a Christian's actions means a person is saved by their own works is so illogical, and yet that's the argument they use to argue against accountability before God since sinners are saved by grace. Again, that shows their thinking, their intelligence level in understanding simple ideas, is lacking. Why? It has to do with a blindness caused by demonic ideas, as the thread's originator spoke. But it also has to do with God's purpose. Everything and everyone has to do with God's purpose, even those who are judged unworthy. All persons and all experiences are teaching God's chosen people the consequence of sin.
 
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Anthony2019

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I think that when we become utterly convinced that we are the ones that are always right and that everyone else is wrong, we risk developing a grandiose and delusional perception of ourselves. When we become overzealous in impressing our views on others, expecting them to conform, we risk developing a messiah-type complex, which is certainly not the most desirable trait in reaching others with the good news.

There are an estimated 2 billion Christians on planet Earth, who are familiar with the same scriptures. They have read them, studied them and come to their own conclusions on their meaning. The reality is that not everyone agrees on every aspect of theology and when arguments ensue, it is those who shout the loudest who think they are the ones who will be heard.

No-one has complete monopoly of the truth, however much they like to think they do. We should always be prepared to listen to each other's experiences and discern what is right. The mind of God is much greater than our finite brains can take in and no matter how much we have learned, there is always more to be discovered.
 
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The Righterzpen

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When adopting a doctrine one thing people must ask is "what if I'm wrong". If you believe in OSAS, what if you are wrong? Your salvation may not be as sure as you think. If you believe salvation can be forfeited, what if you are wrong? Your salvation is more sure than you think. If you believe in pre-trib, what if you are wrong? You'll be subjected to horrors you never prepared for. If you believe in post-trib, what if you're wrong? You escape a horror you prepared to see.

On any subject, just consider what would be if in your human understanding you are wrong.

This sounds good from a human reasoning stand point; yet philosophical hodgepodge "just to be safe" doesn't necessarily stand on the truth. Jesus said he is the only way to the Father; but you know, ehhh..... he might be wrong, so I'll believe that all religions eventually lead to God.

The "just to be safe" so "I won't take a side" ultimately doesn't convict anyone of anything. That's a problem.
 
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BCsenior

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Therefore we are set free from the power of sin,
and it has no more power to condemn us.
Sorry, but you're missing the point.
Paul explains in several verses that:
BACs have been set free from sin ...
in that they do NOT have to sin any more!

They are NO longer slaves to sin!
They are NO longer captives of sin!
They are No longer in bondage to sin!
So, they have NO excuse to keep sinning!
If they sincerely CONFESS and REPENT of the occasional sin, they're good to go!

Meanwhile, BACs are also NO longer slaves of Satan!
They are NO longer captives of Satan!
They are NO longer held in bondage to Satan!
Satan is ONLY "the ruler of this world (of non-believers)" (John 12:31, 14:30, 16:11)
 
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BCsenior

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There are an estimated 2 billion Christians on planet Earth, who are familiar with the same scriptures.
They have read them, studied them and come to their own conclusions on their meaning.
Total ridiculous nonsense and complete rubbish!
 
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CharismaticLady

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Yes. I did read it. Your mortal body is sentenced to death because of sin. Therefore while you are in your mortal body the presence of sin is still with you.

Are you saying you have no desire to sin? Really? Let's look at the works of the flesh:

"The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like" (Galatians 5:19-21_.

So since you were converted to Christ:
You have never had a lustful or impure thought;
You have never read a horoscope, ouija board, or anything else of the occult, even something minor like tricking or treating at Halloween;
You have never got angry at anyone;
Never been contentious;
Never involved in a clique or faction of any kind;
Never had even a small thought of envy concerning anything that anyone has that you haven't got;
Never been jealous of anyone who has been in a role that was denied to you;
Never chosen selfish actions in any way;
Never got drunk;
Never watched movies or TV programmes that involve impurity, violence or godlessness;
Never had even the slightest judgmental thought about anyone;
Never been thankful that you are not like someone who has been immoral or sinful.

It is not just the outward actions, but there are thoughts and attitudes of the heart that can involve temptation and a falling short of sinless perfection.

These are the struggles and pressures we all have, including you if you are to be realistic about yourself, while we are in this mortal body.

I have already examined myself according to Galatians 5:19-21 and I honestly hate all those things. Its not hard when you are born again.

I don't know if you've seen my analogy of the born again experience, but I'll repeat it:

It is like being born with the nature of a lion, loving to kill, drink blood and eat fresh meat. But the law says to not kill and only eat grass. Then that lion becomes born again into a divine new creature, a lamb. The lamb never desires to kill and loves to eat grass. Therefore that law to not kill and eat only grass is very easy for the lamb, but impossible for the lion.

Every person on the face of the earth is either still a sinner or a child of God, but no one is both.

Romans 6:
How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

6:5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man (nature) was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.

6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

6:22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

John 8:34-36
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.
 
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CharismaticLady

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Oh, and I forgot to examine the fruit of the Spirit!

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control."

So, since your conversion, you have always been:
Totally loving toward every single person you have met;
Always joyful and thankful in every circumstance;
Always being peaceful and promoting peacableness;
Always forbearing and patient toward every single person, even those in the forum who have argued against you;
Always kind and gentle, especially those who have been unkind, and not gentle with you;
Always showing goodness in everything you do.
Being totally faithful to your word and every promise you have made;
Always being self-controlled in every situation, positive or negative.

What this means that any single failure, no matter how slight is an infraction of God's moral law.

If in the light of all these things, you still think you are totally sinlessly perfect, then you are a better person than I am Gunga Din!

John 15
“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

9 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
 
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Ricky M

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This sounds good from a human reasoning stand point; yet philosophical hodgepodge "just to be safe" doesn't necessarily stand on the truth. Jesus said he is the only way to the Father; but you know, ehhh..... he might be wrong, so I'll believe that all religions eventually lead to God.

The "just to be safe" so "I won't take a side" ultimately doesn't convict anyone of anything. That's a problem.
There's a big difference between thinking "I may be wrong" and thinking "Jesus may be wrong". And it doesn't mean you can't take a side, it means that being human you admit you may be fallible. I personally don't know of one who isn't.

Too, there's the issue of consequences. What is the consequence if a pre tribber is wrong? What is the consequence if a post tribber is wrong? The post tribber escapes something he prepared for. The pre tribber faces something he didn't prepare for. That's when people will start questioning their faith, when they find things they just knew they knew are actually not what they thought they knew. Because they refused to consider that, being human, they might just be wrong.
 
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CharismaticLady

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There are an estimated 2 billion Christians on planet Earth, who are familiar with the same scriptures. They have read them, studied them and come to their own conclusions on their meaning.

There is only one truth; the Truth of the Author.

Lord Byron, romantic poet of the early 1800’s, walked into a pub and sat down at a table by the fire. Sitting at the table next to him he overheard the heated conversation of two gentlemen discussing the meaning of a poem – one written by the poet himself. He listened with amusement as they debated over the meaning of the poem, both completely missing the point. Finally, he chimed in with the true meaning of the poem, introducing himself as the author. Even so they stood their ground preferring their own interpretations, and both argued with Lord Byron over the meaning of the poem.
 
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Zhen

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The fact Christ said he could remove a Christian's name out of the book of life in Revelation shows salvation can be lost.

The primary argument of the guy who started this thread has to do with that fact. He cited Christian beliefs about whether Christ's following experience the great tribulation as one reason some people who claim to be Christians don't believe that. I believe a stronger reason is because many people just fail to understand words and phrases. Instead they accept what others teach who also don't understand when reading certain words and phrases either. A blind ignorance of simple language spread across the population that God allows, because it serves his purpose. How so? It contributes to identifying individuals by their choices, what they really want and not by what they say they want. Because the only people who would believe there is no accountability before God are the people who don't want that.

I don't even think they really believe it. But if they can get in groups that say that enough they feel better and safer that it just might be true. That's what God means when he said he allows them to believe a lie. It serves his purpose in separating people.

The idea that accountability before God that shapes a Christian's actions means a person is saved by their own works is so illogical, and yet that's the argument they use to argue against accountability before God since sinners are saved by grace. Again, that shows their thinking, their intelligence level in understanding simple ideas, is lacking. Why? It has to do with a blindness caused by demonic ideas, as the thread's originator spoke. But it also has to do with God's purpose. Everything and everyone has to do with God's purpose, even those who are judged unworthy. All persons and all experiences are teaching God's chosen people the consequence of sin.

um hello... may i know which part of the bible the following may be found:
‘The fact Christ said he could remove a Christian's name out of the book of life in Revelation shows salvation can be lost.’ ?
 
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CharismaticLady

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um hello... may i know which part of the bible the following may be found:
‘The fact Christ said he could remove a Christian's name out of the book of life in Revelation shows salvation can be lost.’ ?

This first verse in Revelation shows that not everyone's name has been written in the Book of Life.

Revelation 13:8
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

This next verse is to those in one of the Churches. There name is in the Book of Life, but they have sinned. If they do not repent and turn away from their sin (overcome), their names could be blotted out. But if they do repent and turn away from their sin, their names will not be blotted out of the Book of Life.

Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Sorry, but you're missing the point.
Paul explains in several verses that:
BACs have been set free from sin ...
in that they do NOT have to sin any more!

They are NO longer slaves to sin!
They are NO longer captives of sin!
They are No longer in bondage to sin!
So, they have NO excuse to keep sinning!
If they sincerely CONFESS and REPENT of the occasional sin, they're good to go!

Meanwhile, BACs are also NO longer slaves of Satan!
They are NO longer captives of Satan!
They are NO longer held in bondage to Satan!
Satan is ONLY "the ruler of this world (of non-believers)" (John 12:31, 14:30, 16:11)
Have you read my post to Charismatic Lady about the works of the flesh and the fruit of the Spirit? Put yourself to the same test and see how you come out.

You are quite right that we are no longer captives and slaves to sin, but the presence of sin is still with us. If you put yourself to the test of whether you are totally free from the works of the flesh even in the smallest detail, or are totally walking in the the fruit of the Spirit to absolute perfection, and come out smelling like a rose, then I will accept what you are saying that we can be sinlessly perfect.
 
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I have already examined myself according to Galatians 5:19-21 and I honestly hate all those things. Its not hard when you are born again.

I don't know if you've seen my analogy of the born again experience, but I'll repeat it:

It is like being born with the nature of a lion, loving to kill, drink blood and eat fresh meat. But the law says to not kill and only eat grass. Then that lion becomes born again into a divine new creature, a lamb. The lamb never desires to kill and loves to eat grass. Therefore that law to not kill and eat only grass is very easy for the lamb, but impossible for the lion.

Every person on the face of the earth is either still a sinner or a child of God, but no one is both.

Romans 6:
How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

6:5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man (nature) was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.

6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

6:22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

John 8:34-36
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.
You are totally correct in the Scriptures you quote. We are totally free from the guilt, penalty, and power of sin, and we will be completely free from the presence of sin once we pass through death and are resurrected into glory and are no longer cumbered with our mortal body.

Paul says that the problem is not him, but his mortal body. He is saying that the real person that he is consists of his new heart and spirit which desires after God's moral law in the inner man. But there is the law of sin and death in his mortal body that gets in the way of what his heart strongly desires.

Yes, the inner person, born again of the Spirit of God is free from sin, and because God looks on the heart, He sees the person as totally righteous in Christ. But the mortal body has the sentence of death on it, and because the presence of sin is still in the mortal body, it has to die. If the mortal body is totally free from sin, it wouldn't have to die, but it is corrupted by sin and therefore is sentenced to death.

"I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me" (Galatians 2:20).

The fact is, that God sees our mortal body as already dead - crucified with Christ. This means that we will never be able to reform our bodies to be sinlessly perfect in its desires and urges. We can't reform something that is already dead. That's why Paul says to reckon ourselves dead. That is also the meaning behind mortifying the deeds of the flesh. It is through faith in Christ that we reckon the works of the flesh dead in us, and it is the power of the Holy Spirit that causes the actual deeds to fall away from us. No resolution that we can make of ourselves will work. If we try without the working of the Holy Spirit, all we have is self-righteousness, and that is unacceptable to God.

So, the "right now" is the condition of our inner man who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit ("Christ lives in me") - totally free from sin.

But the "not yet" is the condition of our mortal body with its desires and urges which we do what we can to keep it under subjection. The problem is that it won't lie still on the altar to have the knife of mortification plunged into it. It keeps struggling and roaring against the work of the Spirit in us, and will continue to do so until the day we die.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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John 15
“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

9 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
You are quite right in the Scriptures you are quoting, but you haven't addressed the questions I put to you.
 
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BCsenior

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If you put yourself to the test of whether you are totally free from the works of the flesh even in the smallest detail, or are totally walking in the the fruit of the Spirit to absolute perfection, and come out smelling like a rose, then I will accept what you are saying that we can be sinlessly perfect.
No, I most assuredly have NOT been saying that!
Haven't you noticed even one of the many times I have written this,
or, what is most likely, don't you believe it? ...
It's all about the attitude of our hearts!
Because, obviously, none of us can be "sinlessly perfect"!

And, why would Paul give us so many explanations/promises that
we are NO longer under the power of sin, etc., IF it was NOT true?
C'mon, this is getting ridiculous!
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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No, I am most assuredly am NOT saying that!
Haven't you noticed even one of the many times I have written this,
or, what is most likely, don't you believe it? ...
It's all about the attitude of our hearts!
Because, obviously, none of us can be "sinlessly perfect"!
Now, you have said something right!
So, the question is, how can you differentiate between someone whose heart is right and whose heart isn't? Seeing that man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart.

The truth is that we can't know, because sincere believers and hypocrites conduct themselves in exactly the same ways so that one cannot tell them apart. In actual fact, hypocrites can appear to be more spiritual, moral, holy, faithful to their church, good members, deacons, pastors, etc., than sincere believers.

So, your posts could appear to be the "scatter-gun" approach to shoot at everyone in the hope that you will hit some hypocrites in the process, and that sincere believers are just unfortunate collateral.
 
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