Investigating WHO God has chosen and WHY

Strong in Him

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The exact words referred to were "fell from grace".

I know.
But the way it was written made me think that you were saying that Adam and Eve were Israelites, i.e God's chosen people, when they fell from Grace.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Scripture says God is love. Jesus said "God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Jesus did NOT say "God so loved only the elect/chosen that they will believe in his only begotten son and not perish."
I cannot believe a God, who is love, created the majority of mankind to live pointless lives, with no hope, and, depending on one's belief, either be annihilated or suffer for eternity in hell. That does not fit "God s love."
Their lives were not pointless. "22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction?" Romans 9

We are not capable of knowing the extent and flavor of God's love. Nobody can reconcile what God does by judging according to their opinion of Love. His love is what it is, not because he chose to be loving, since love is good to have, but Love is what it is because God is love.

His love involves his justice, precise and thorough justice, even upon Christ who took the sin of those God chose upon himself. There is a particular Creation God has made, and this is how he made it, for us to know him. Not for us to all have a wonderful eternity, but for himself to be glorified. And yes, EVERY knee will bow.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Scripture says God is love. Jesus said "God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Jesus did NOT say "God so loved only the elect/chosen that they will believe in his only begotten son and not perish."
I cannot believe a God, who is love, created the majority of mankind to live pointless lives, with no hope, and, depending on one's belief, either be annihilated or suffer for eternity in hell. That does not fit "God s love."
What does "majority" have to do with it? You may as well be a universalist, since by your logic even one person should not be condemned. Or do some deserve condemnation to eternal punishment and others do not? And who enabled you to make such a proclamation? Why do you think you can judge God's love, or even define it?
 
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Mark Quayle

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Funny how having a 50-50 chance of being chosen for hell fire would put God's choice last. You had better hope that is not God's choice for you. You may only think you believe.

Where do you calculate a 50-50 chance? God doesn't bow to chance, btw. It is only a man-made word.

I agree I may only think I believe; I am more than capable of fooling myself. It is God in me that saves and keeps me, not my integrity, not my willpower, not my intelligence.

There is a 100% "chance" that who God chose will be in Heaven with him, and the same "chance" that whoever does not believe in him already stands condemned, until their hearts are changed, and they believe.
 
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Der Alte

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Their lives were not pointless. "22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction?" Romans 9
We are not capable of knowing the extent and flavor of God's love. Nobody can reconcile what God does by judging according to their opinion of Love. His love is what it is, not because he chose to be loving, since love is good to have, but Love is what it is because God is love.
His love involves his justice, precise and thorough justice, even upon Christ who took the sin of those God chose upon himself. There is a particular Creation God has made, and this is how he made it, for us to know him. Not for us to all have a wonderful eternity, but for himself to be glorified. And yes, EVERY knee will bow
.
So John 3:16 really means that God does NOT love the world but only the elect, because only the elect can choose to believe on Jesus and those who are not elect will perish and there is nothing that either group can do to change it?
 
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Der Alte

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What does "majority" have to do with it? You may as well be a universalist, since by your logic even one person should not be condemned. Or do some deserve condemnation to eternal punishment and others do not? And who enabled you to make such a proclamation? Why do you think you can judge God's love, or even define it?
Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Sounds like a majority to me. And those going the broad way can do nothing about it, they will go down the broad way no matter what they do, because they are not chosen.
Did God so love the world or only part of the world?
 
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Neogaia777

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So John 3:16 really means that God does NOT love the world but only the elect, because only the elect can choose to believe on Jesus and those who are not elect will perish and there is nothing that either group can do to change it?
Because "we don't know" there is in our eyes, or from our point of view (something we might be able to do about it, if we think were on the wrong course right now, etc) but not from God's point of view, and that is the very important distinction here. It is because "we do not know" that we might be able to do something about it from our point of view, but God already knows, etc, but we do not, etc, and because we don't, well, now I'm about to repeat myself, but hopefully you get my point maybe (maybe)...

God Bless!
 
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Der Alte

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Because "we don't know" there is in our eyes, or from our point of view (something we might be able to do about it, if we think were on the wrong course right now, etc) but not from God's point of view, and that is the very important distinction here. It is because "we do not know" that we might be able to do something about it from our point of view, but God already knows, etc, but we do not, etc, and because we don't, well, now I'm about to repeat myself, but hopefully you get my point maybe (maybe)...
God Bless!
I don't have a real problem with that but I was replying to a Calvinist argument which is that God has chosen some to be saved and some to not be saved. And according to Calvinism there is nothing that either group can do to change their fate.
 
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Butch5

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So John 3:16 really means that God does NOT love the world but only the elect, because only the elect can choose to believe on Jesus and those who are not elect will perish and there is nothing that either group can do to change it?
That's what they'd have you believe. Except they can't prove it. They also can't prove that they are of the elect. You see one of the 5 points is perseverance of the saints. They can't be lost. So, if any of these who claim they're of the elect and fall away they prove that they were never saved to begin with. Their own argument leaves them in limbo until they die.
 
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Mark Quayle

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So John 3:16 really means that God does NOT love the world but only the elect, because only the elect can choose to believe on Jesus and those who are not elect will perish and there is nothing that either group can do to change it?

Even we, in English, and even moreso in several other languages, use the phrase, "the whole world", (and John 3:16 doesn't even say WHOLE world), to mean "everybody" of a large group. I don't honestly claim that John 3:16 contextually can only mean that, because God also has a common love for his whole creation, and his whole creation has been restored to himself by Christ's defeating of death. (That is a huge subject I have not yet been able to breach, but I already love it. Oh, and btw, that restoring of all things to himself does not even hint at Universalism.)

God does have a special love for the elect, and none other will be saved. I don't know how you can then say that all have equal opportunity for salvation; the only equal opportunity I see --that is, if we all demand fairness-- we all die in our sins. But God has grace on some, for the sake of his own glory.

Here is a pretty good post concerning the matter, by Dave L.

The effect of Free Will on Scripture.
 
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BCsenior

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Even we, in English, and even more so in several other languages, use the phrase, "the whole world"
(and John 3:16 doesn't even say WHOLE world), to mean "everybody" of a large group.
When John uses the word "world", he usually is referring to the world of non-believers.
So, when he talks about "the ruler of this world" (John 12:31, 14:30, 16:11),
he means that Satan rules the world of unbelievers, not everyone in the world.
 
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Strong in Him

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God does have a special love for the elect, and none other will be saved.

No.
ALL have sinned.
Christ died for sinners.
When mankind was lost in sin, without God and far from God, God the Father sent his Son to die for the world so as to reconcile it to himself, 2 Corinthians 5:18. God IS love, 1 John 4:8 and the cross is the demonstration of his love, 1 John 3:16.
There is nothing in Scripture to say that a) God has chosen some sinners to be saved but not others and b) that God has more love, or a special kind of love, for those whom he has chosen to save.
 
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BCsenior

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There is nothing in Scripture to say that
a) God has chosen some sinners to be saved but not others
and
b) that God has more love, or a special kind of love,
for those whom he has chosen to save.
What do think about all of those NT election verses?

And the NT verses about some people being called and chosen?
The fact is ... many are called, but only a few are chosen!

And this is NOT about who people who choose to believe!
It's about born-again people who choose to remain faithful and obey, etc.
Most of those who are called accept the calling and are born-again.
But who are the chosen ones? ... Those dressed in blue.
 
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What do think about all of those NT election verses?

And the NT verses about some people being called and chosen?
The fact is ... many are called, but only a few are chosen!

It doesn't say they are chosen for salvation, or to be loved by God.

In the OT, Jacob was chosen and not Esau. It doesn't mean God washed his hands of Esau and left him to rot. But the leaders of the 12 tribes of Israel, David and the Messiah could only be descended from one man; Judah.
God rescued all the Hebrew people from Egypt and they were his people; he chose the Jews to be a light to the Gentiles and Israel to be the birthplace of the Messiah. It doesn't mean that he despised all other countries and was/is not interested in them.
Jesus chose 12 to be his disciples. It doesn't mean he hated everyone else and wouldn't let them follow him - he once sent out 70 people to preach and heal and had female disciples, eg Mary Magdalene. But the 12 were chosen for a special purpose.
Jesus chose Saul of Tarsus, a Pharisee who persecuted the church, to be his Apostle to the Gentiles. It doesn't mean that no one else was allowed to preach to the Gentiles; Paul was chosen for a particular purpose.
Paul says that the Spirit gives gifts as he will - so he chooses some to be teachers, some to be evangelists, Pastors and so on. If a person is not chosen to have a preaching/prophetic/healing ministry, it doesn't mean that they can't be filled with the Holy Spirit.

We are chosen for different ministries and have different gifts and abilities. Some do have a strong call of God on their lives to do a certain thing. That doesn't mean that God will, or can, not save the others too.
 
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Mark Quayle

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No.
ALL have sinned.
Christ died for sinners.
When mankind was lost in sin, without God and far from God, God the Father sent his Son to die for the world so as to reconcile it to himself, 2 Corinthians 5:18. God IS love, 1 John 4:8 and the cross is the demonstration of his love, 1 John 3:16.
There is nothing in Scripture to say that a) God has chosen some sinners to be saved but not others and b) that God has more love, or a special kind of love, for those whom he has chosen to save.

Logically, then, I can take you to say that Scripture shows that: a) God chose all (or none) of sinners to be saved, and b) that God loves all equally.

Logically, then, you are contradicting yourself. You take away decision from God, relegating it to man. Man is demonstrably not sovereign. Therefore, by your logic, it is up to chance, who will and who will not choose God. By your logic, some are simply better people than others, having made a better choice than others. Logically, chance rules nothing. If it does, then it contradicts chance.

To say that you make a choice out of mere being, without influence, with all sovereignty, is more than anyone I know will say, all admitting to at least some influence, genetic or environmental. If there is some influence, then God is the one causing it all.

(Or you are a universalist.)
 
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Mark Quayle

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No.
ALL have sinned.
Christ died for sinners.
When mankind was lost in sin, without God and far from God, God the Father sent his Son to die for the world so as to reconcile it to himself, 2 Corinthians 5:18. God IS love, 1 John 4:8 and the cross is the demonstration of his love, 1 John 3:16.
There is nothing in Scripture to say that a) God has chosen some sinners to be saved but not others and b) that God has more love, or a special kind of love, for those whom he has chosen to save.

Wow. Nothing in Scripture to say those two things? Are you a universalist?
 
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Strong in Him

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Wow. Nothing in Scripture to say those two things? Are you a universalist?

No, I'm not.

ALL have sinned, Romans 3:23.
Christ died for sinners, Romans 5:8.
Where does it say that there are some sinners for whom Christ has not died?
Where does it say that God made humans in his image, but chose to only love and save some of them?
 
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Logically, then, I can take you to say that Scripture shows that: a) God chose all (or none) of sinners to be saved,

God has made it possible for all to be saved - but he knows that not all will accept his free gift, Romans 6:23.

Logically, then, you are contradicting yourself. You take away decision from God, relegating it to man. Man is demonstrably not sovereign. Therefore, by your logic, it is up to chance, who will and who will not choose God.

No, it isn't up to chance.
People may be drawn to God because someone, somewhere is praying for them - monks, nuns, evangelists, distant family etc. They may never know who prayed, or why they felt drawn to go into a church service/read the Gospels/read a Christian book/read a leaflet that a chaplain gave them about bereavement.
In our church we pray for people every week; those in government and leadership, whose names and circumstances we do not know, those in the church throughout the world, those in our communities and local hospital who are sick. Some churches organise prayer walks; walking up ad down random streets, praying for all who live, or are visiting there. How do you, and we, know how many of those people might be touched/convicted/ministered to by the Holy Spirit?
Or maybe you don't believe that God is in charge and some things in the universe are just chance, coincidence or random events?

By your logic, some are simply better people than others, having made a better choice than others.

No.
The Spirit prompts, convicts and draws people to Jesus - but God still gives people the right to accept or reject his gift of eternal life.

To say that you make a choice out of mere being, without influence, with all sovereignty, is more than anyone I know will say,

Where did I say that?

If there is some influence, then God is the one causing it all.

I've just said: God the Spirit is the One who draws people to himself; often through the prayers of others. God may also use life experiences to prompt people to think about him - e.g war, suffering, bereavement, birth of a child, sudden healing from illness. And Scripture says that creation bears witness to God, so somebody may be awestruck by a beautiful sunset, mountain range, waterfall, bed of flowers etc etc.
Of course God is causing it all; he is doing all he can and using whatever he can to draw ALL people to himself.
This does not mean that ALL will be saved - some may turn away, or refuse to accept his salvation.
 
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