What did the Early Church Fathers write about the return of Christ during 70 AD?

[mkgal1]

Can you explain how the facts above change what Dr. Luke recorded in Acts of the Apostles 1:9-11?



.

They don't change anything that Dr. Luke recorded in Acts - but I posted them in response to your emphasis on the word "sight" and what was seen in Acts 1:11 - which changes the whole emphasis of the passage (and dismisses the fulfillment of His plan to restore the kingdom to Israel). ISTM that you're limiting Christ and His power to what can be seen with our eyeballs and neglecting what can be seen (understood/known) through the Spirit and His Truth.

Acts 1:11 ~ They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven." [with the clouds]​

This is the focus I notice in Acts:

Acts 1:6 ~ Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

And I believe He did - He fulfilled that in the first century as this article explains:​

From article by Vladimir Moss

In the fullness of time, in accordance with the plan that He had indicated to Adam and Eve immediately after the Fall, and in accordance with the sayings of the Old Testament prophets, God, the Creator of the universe, became a man in the womb of the Holy Virgin Mary. Having lived a life of perfect virtue, He offered a perfect Sacrifice for the sins of all mankind on the Cross, died, and descended into hades, destroying the power of the devil and leading all the dead who believed in Him into Paradise. Then, on the third day, He rose from the dead, appeared to His disciples in His resurrected Body, and on the fortieth day ascended in glory into heaven. Ten days later, at Pentecost, the Holy Spirit descended on the disciples, creating the New Testament Church.

The events recounted in the Gospel constitute the most important series of events in history, the turning-point in the whole history of mankind. By His Resurrection from the dead, the central and completely decisive event in the history of the world, Christ proved the truth of all His claims and thereby gave hope to all men who believed in Him of receiving remission of sins and eternal life. For He was truly “The Word of God and God” (John 1.1), “the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world” (John 1.29) and “the Son of God, the King of Israel” (John 1.49). He was truly the pre-eternal God, Who had created the heavens and the earth and Who had “all authority in heaven and on earth”, over all creatures, both angelic and human (Matthew 28.18)

MORE HERE: CHRIST, ISRAEL AND THE FALL OF JERUSALEM​

 

[BABerean2]

They don't change anything that Dr. Luke recorded in Acts - but I posted them in response to your emphasis on the word "sight" and what was seen in Acts 1:11 - which changes the whole emphasis of the passage (and dismisses the fulfillment of His plan to restore the kingdom to Israel). ISTM that you're limiting Christ and His power.

Acts 1:11 ~ They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven." [with the clouds]

This is the focus I notice in Acts:

Acts 1:6 ~ Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

And I believe He did - He fulfilled that in the first century as this article explains:

I am not limiting anything.

There is a present fulfillment of the kingdom promised to Israel, based on the fulfillment of the New Covenant promised to Israel, and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

It was fulfilled by the blood of Christ at Calvary.

Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, prove this fact.

.

 

[mkgal1]

I am not limiting anything.

There is a present fulfillment of the kingdom promised to Israel, based on the fulfillment of the New Covenant promised to Israel, and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

It was fulfilled by the blood of Christ at Calvary.

Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, prove this fact.

.

There were events that occurred after the cross that point to fulfillment of prophecy (like the baptism of fire at Pentecost - for one example).

There were false messiahs that died during the same period of Jesus - but their deaths meant nothing as far as redemption/restoration goes (and their followers abandoned their movements when they were killed). Acts 5 refers to this:

Acts 5:35-39 ~
“Men of Israel,” he said, “consider carefully what you are about to do to these men. Some time ago Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men joined him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and drew away people after him. He too perished, and all his followers were scattered.​

So in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone. Let them go! For if their purpose or endeavor is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop them. You may even find yourselves fighting against God.”​

So - why did Jesus' followers still have hope in Him and His mission even after He was killed? Their hope was a restoration of the kingdom of Israel (we see that repeated throughout the Gospels). How did they maintain so much hope throughout their persecution? I believe it's because they DID have hope that their oppression from the corrupt religious system would end soon - as Paul has assured the Thessalonians. Sin had been forgiven - but the issue of the oppression of God's people hadn't been dealt with yet. The punishment due for false worship (as Herod's Temple after Calvary had become) under the old covenant hadn't been enacted.

Quoting from linked article:
Kenneth Gentry (1998) refers to the prophecy in Matthew 24:29-30 as a “Cloud-Coming” of Christ in judgment which, like Daly, he says can be understood in light of similar language from the Old Testament. He explains:​

The Old Testament frequently uses clouds as indicators of divine judgment. God is said to be surrounded with thick, foreboding clouds as emblems of His unapproachable holiness and righteousness (Gen. 15:17; Ex. 13:21-22; 14:19-20; 19:9, 16-19; Deut. 4:11; Job 22:14; Psa. 18:8ff; 97:2; 104:3; Isa. 19:1; Eze. 32:7-8). He is poetically portrayed as coming in clouds in historical judgments upon men (Psa. 18:7-15; 104:3; Isa. 19:1; Joel 2:1, 2; Nah. 1:2ff; Zeph. 1:14, 15). Thus, the New Testament speaks of Christ’s coming in clouds of judgment in history at Matthew 24:30 and 26:64, [so that these passages in Matthew do not refer to] His Second Coming. ~ PP11: Did Jesus Come in 70 AD? Part 1​

 

[mkgal1]

so you're both right?

70 AD witnessed Jesus Christ coming into God's Throne Room in heaven, and given glory as all those who caused the Crucifixion -- Jerusalem and the line of Julius Caesar -- were toppled by the conflict

we still await the 2C of JC in God's Throne Room coming back to earth

Thank you, Erik. I agree. That's an excellent (and fair) summary.

 

[BABerean2]

So - why did Jesus' followers still have hope in Him and His mission even after He was killed? Their hope was a restoration of the kingdom of Israel (we see that repeated throughout the Gospels). How did they maintain so much hope throughout their persecution? I believe it's because they DID have hope that their oppression from the corrupt religious system would end soon - as Paul has assured the Thessalonians. Sin had been forgiven - but the issue of the oppression of God's people hadn't been dealt with yet. The punishment due for false worship (as Herod's Temple after Calvary had become) under the old covenant hadn't been enacted.

If that was their hope, why did none of them recognize the events of 70 AD as a fulfillment of that hope?

Did John's student, Polycarp, ever acknowledge 70 AD as a fulfillment of those hopes?



.

 

[mkgal1]

If that was their hope, why did none of them recognize the events of 70 AD as a fulfillment of that hope?

Did John's student, Polycarp, ever acknowledge 70 AD as a fulfillment of those hopes?



.

I'm thinking the following of Jesus of Nazareth would have fallen apart as another failed movement if it weren't recognized as fulfilled. That was the Good News of the Gospel. That the followers of Jesus could expect the relief from the oppressive government and corrupt religious system - and that God would vindicate them and all the prophets and saints that came before.

The fulfillment of the restoration of the kingdom of God was the entire foundation of Judaeo-Christianity. The hope was for a conquering king (and I believe that was fulfilled) not just in spirit - not just forgiveness of their sins - but to give them actual relief from the corrupt powers that were controlling their lives and persecuting them.

IOW - I think it was understood and not questioned until over a thousand years later, with the rise of dispensational teaching that puts off the fulfillment of His kingdom into the future. Modern dispensational teaching has divorced Christianity from our Jewish Old Testament foundation - and thus changed a lot of the initial focus and meaning from the fulfillment (in the case of this teaching - LACK of fulfillment) of prophecy.

This article, IMO, puts the proper framework on what was expected and hoped for in the days of the establishment of our early church. If that had "failed" to meet their expectations - then we wouldn't have Christianity. ALL the followers would have scattered and given up during the persecution in the first century (or even sooner - when Jesus had been put to death):

Quoting Ray Vander Laan------->The Jewish Revolts

Jewish people of Jesus' day had a passionate desire for freedom from the domination of the pagan Romans and the oppressive Herod dynasty that had ruled them for many years. Revolt seethed continuously, mostly underground, for more than 100 years from the time Herod became king (37 BC) until the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple (AD 70).It is helpful to realize that this underlying struggle is the backdrop for Jesus' ministry, and why so many hoped he would be a conquering king. This helps us understand why the adulation of the crowds during the triumphal entry reduced Jesus to tears, and probably why many rejected his message.

THE RISING STORM Ever since the Romans arrived on the scene in 64 BC, the Jewish people were divided over how to respond to the rule of their often corrupt governors or the Herod family who served them. The religious community, particularly the Pharisees, believed the Jewish people were to be God's instruments on earth, from whom the Messiah would come to institute that glorious age when Israel would be a great and free nation. Many others, especially the secular community and apparently some of the Sadducees, noted the present reality of the rule of Rome and determined that cooperation was the best policy. The tyrannical rule of Rome and the paganism of its religious and Hellenistic culture heightened the contrast between the situation at hand and the messianic hopes. This difference produced increasing fragmentation of the people, and several movements developed in response.

~ The Jewish Revolts

​

 

[mkgal1]

Another excerpt from the Vladimir Moss article:

Through His Incarnation as a man, His blameless life and Sacrificial Death on the Cross and Resurrection from the dead, He had truly given all men who believe in Him the possibility of remission of their sins, deliverance from hell and death, and eternal life with God in the age to come. The rest of history to this day has consisted in the self-determination of every nation and every individual in relation to this central, supremely important fact… The eternal destiny of every man in every age depends on his sincerely believing this good news and fulfilling the commandments of Christ.

Now Christ was also “the Son of David”, that is, a descendant of the old royal dynastic line of Israel; He came to restore that line and make it eternal. For, as the Archangel Gabriel said to the Virgin at the Annunciation: “He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His Kingdom there will be no end” (Luke 1.32-33).

What kind of Kingdom was meant here, and what kind of kingdom did the Jews have in mind for themselves?

William Barclay writes: “Throughout all their existence, the Jews never forgot that they were in a very special sense God's chosen people. Because of that, they naturally looked to a very special place in the world. In the early days, they looked forward to achieving that position by what we might call natural means. They always regarded the greatest days in their history as the days of David; and they dreamed of a day when there would arise another king of David's line, a king who would make them great in righteousness and in power (Isaiah 9:7, 11:1; Jeremiah 22:4, 23:5, 30:9). ~ CHRIST, ISRAEL AND THE FALL OF JERUSALEM

 

[mkgal1]

David recorded a "cloud coming" of the Lord in his lifetime. Is there a record of others experiencing this in the years that David was alive? If we're going to expect a literal translation in one Scripture - should we not maintain consistency?

Psalm 18:


1“I love You, O LORD, my strength.”

2The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer,
My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge;
My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.

3I call upon the LORD, who is worthy to be praised,
And I am saved from my enemies.

4The cords of death encompassed me,
And the torrents of ungodliness terrified me.

5The cords of Sheol surrounded me;
The snares of death confronted me.

6In my distress I called upon the LORD,
And cried to my God for help;
He heard my voice out of His temple,
And my cry for help before Him came into His ears.

7Then the earth shook and quaked;
And the foundations of the mountains were trembling
And were shaken, because He was angry.

8Smoke went up out of His nostrils,
And fire from His mouth devoured;
Coals were kindled by it.

9He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With thick darkness under His feet.

10He rode upon a cherub and flew;
And He sped upon the wings of the wind.

11He made darkness His hiding place, His canopy around Him,
Darkness of waters, thick clouds of the skies.

12From the brightness before Him passed His thick clouds,
Hailstones and coals of fire​

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

oops wrong section....

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

No.
This depends , apparently, not on correctly knowing Scripture as Yahuweh Reveals His Own Meaning,
but on man's ideas or doctrines trying to fit with Scripture, different from Yahuweh's Meaning and Plan and Purpose.

Ya think? Oh really?
Who do you know on here that has done that?

John 5:39 "Ye are searching the Writings that ye are seeming in them life age-during to be having, and those are the ones-testifying about Me".

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all the letters, speaking in them about these-things; in which are difficult to understand any which the un-learned and un-steadfast are wresting/twisting as also the rest of Writings, toward the own of them destruction/apwleian <684>. [# 684 used reve 17:8, 11]

 

[mkgal1]

The problem is that no one has made that claim. So you've set up a straw man argument.

"The son of man coming with the clouds" is Christ Jesus in the presence of God the Father (the Ancient of Days). It's His enthronement IN HEAVEN.

What was "seen" were the signs of that being manifested.

Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

.

Matthew 24:30 ~ And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.


Kevin Daly (2009) writes regarding these things:

The appearance of a sign (verse 30) would not be necessary if the Son of Man would come visibly at this time. The sign is necessary because his coming in the clouds of heaven, in power and vindication glory, alludes once more to Daniel, who spoke of ‘one like the son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven,’ to receive from the Ancient of Days ‘authority, glory and sovereign power’ so that ‘all peoples, nations and men of every language’ might worship him. The fall of Jerusalem was itself the sign (evidence) that Jesus was enthroned at the right hand of the Father in heaven, bringing judgment on the city.

Adam Clarke [1762-1832] comments on verse 30: “The plain meaning of this is, that the destruction of Jerusalem will be such a remarkable instance of Divine vengeance, such a signal manifestation of Christ’s power and glory, that all the Jewish tribes shall mourn, and many will, in consequence of this manifestation of God, be led to acknowledge Christ and his religion.” Since Deuteronomy 18:22 establishes the fulfillment of prophecy as the test for a true prophet, Jesus would be fully vindicated at the time that his Word was fulfilled. He is thus affirmed as the risen King, ruling from the right hand of the Father in heavenly glory, with power to execute judgment and bring salvation. The trumpet call that called back the exiles in Isaiah 27:13 would now call in the elect from the four corners of the earth. This harvest of souls to whom the gospel was sown, from far and wide for Messiah’s glory, is contrasted with the tribes of the land (Greek – της γης), who would mourn for the one they had pierced, in accordance with Zechariah 12:10.

​

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

oops wrong section ....

 

[BABerean2]

Matthew 24:30 ~ And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

Are you advocating an invisible coming of Christ, like many of those promoting the Pre-trib doctrine?

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.


Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.


Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Did the blindness of Israel end during 70 AD?
Did the last Gentile come into the Church during 70 AD?


.

 

[mkgal1]

Daly appears to be wrong. Seriously wrong.

Maybe Clarke also.

.......because.....?

You know that's how discussion (and the rules of the forum) work, right? There needs to be some sort of support for your assertions not just "no......that's wrong".

 

[mkgal1]

Are you advocating an invisible coming of Christ, like many of those promoting the Pre-trib doctrine?

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Did the blindness of Israel end during 70 AD?
Did the last Gentile come into the Church during 70 AD?


.

Invisible? No (there were signs for the disciples to look for - so it wasn't "invisible" or secret). Also - the results of His coming (in 70 A.D.) were tangible and life-changing.....so that's also NOT invisible.

Jesus in the flesh in 70 A.D., though? No, that's also not what I'm advocating.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Matthew 24:30 ~ And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.


Kevin Daly (2009) writes regarding these things:

The appearance of a sign (verse 30) would not be necessary if the Son of Man would come visibly at this time. The sign is necessary because his coming in the clouds of heaven, in power and vindication glory, alludes once more to Daniel, who spoke of ‘one like the son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven,’ to receive from the Ancient of Days ‘authority, glory and sovereign power’ so that ‘all peoples, nations and men of every language’ might worship him. The fall of Jerusalem was itself the sign (evidence) that Jesus was enthroned at the right hand of the Father in heaven, bringing judgment on the city.

Adam Clarke [1762-1832] comments on verse 30: “The plain meaning of this is, that the destruction of Jerusalem will be such a remarkable instance of Divine vengeance, such a signal manifestation of Christ’s power and glory, that all the Jewish tribes shall mourn, and many will, in consequence of this manifestation of God, be led to acknowledge Christ and his religion.” Since Deuteronomy 18:22 establishes the fulfillment of prophecy as the test for a true prophet, Jesus would be fully vindicated at the time that his Word was fulfilled. He is thus affirmed as the risen King, ruling from the right hand of the Father in heavenly glory, with power to execute judgment and bring salvation. The trumpet call that called back the exiles in Isaiah 27:13 would now call in the elect from the four corners of the earth. This harvest of souls to whom the gospel was sown, from far and wide for Messiah’s glory, is contrasted with the tribes of the land (Greek – της γης), who would mourn for the one they had pierced, in accordance with Zechariah 12:10.
​

BABerean2 said: ↑
Are you advocating an invisible coming of Christ, like many of those promoting the Pre-trib doctrine?

Invisible? No (there were signs for the disciples to look for - so it wasn't "invisible" or secret). Also - the results of His coming (in 70 A.D.) were tangible and life-changing.....so that's also NOT invisible.

Jesus in the flesh in 70 A.D., though? No, that's also not what I'm advocating.

​

James Stuart Russell (1816-1895) Study Archive

James Stuart Russell
(1816 - 1895)

Nonmillenarian

AUTHOR OF:
The Parousia
A careful look at the New Testament doctrine of our Lord's Second Coming


(on the Nature of Christ's Return)
"It is possible to believe in the fulfillment of predictions which take effect in the visible order of things, because we have historical evidence of that fulfillment; but how can we be expected to believe in fulfillments which are said to have taken place in the region of the spiritual and invisible when we have no witnesses to depose to the facts? We implicitly believe in the accomplishment of all that was predicted respecting the horrors of the siege of Jerusalem, the burning of the temple, and the demolition of the city, because we have the testimony of Josephus to the facts; but how can we believe in a coming of the Son of man, in a resurrection of the dead, in an act of judgment, when we have nothing but the word of prophecy to rely upon, and no Josephus to vouch for the historical accuracy of the facts? "To this it can only be said in reply that the demand for human testimony to events in the region of the unseen is not altogether reasonable. If we receive them at all it must be on the word of Him who declared that all these things would assuredly take place before that generation passed away. But, after all, is the demand upon our faith in this matter so very excessive ? A large portion of these predictions we know to have been literally and punctually fulfilled; we recognise in that accomplishment a remarkable proof of the truth of the word of God and the superhuman prescience that foresaw and foretold the future. Could any thing have been less probable at the time when our Lord delivered his prophetic discourse than the total destruction of the temple, the razing of the city, and the ruin of the nation in the lifetime of the existing generation ? What can be more minute and particular than the signs of the end enumerated by our Lord ? What can be more precise and literal than the fulfillment of them?

"But the part which confessedly has been fulfilled, and which is vouched for by uninspired history, is inseparably bound up with another portion which is not so vouched for. Nothing but a violent disruption can detach the one part of this prophecy from the other. It is one from beginning to end- a complete whole. The finest instrument cannot draw a line separating one portion which relates to that generation from another portion which relates to a different and distant period. Every part of it rests on the same foundation, and the whole is so linked and concatenated that all must stand or fall together. We are justified, therefore, in holding that the exact accomplishment of so much of the prophecy as comes within the cognizance of the senses, and is capable of being vouched for by human testimony, is a presumption and guarantee in favour of the exact fulfilment of that portion which lies within the region of the invisible and spiritual, and which cannot, in the nature of things, be attested by human evidence. This is not credulity, but reasonable faith, such as men fearlessly exercise in all their worldly transactions.

"We conclude, therefore, that all the parts of our Lord's prediction refer to the same period and the same event; that the whole prophecy is one and indivisible, resting upon the same foundation of divine authority. Farther, that all that was cognizable by the human senses is proved to have been fulfilled, and, therefore, we are not only warranted, but bound to assume the fulfilment of the remainder as not only credible, but certain." ( The Parousia pp. 547, 648.)

(On Matthew 13:36 and the "End of the Age")
"Nothing can be more misleading to the English reader, than the rendering, 'the end of the world;' which inevitably suggests the close of human history, the end of time, and the destruction of the earth -- a meaning which the words will not bear. . . . What can be more evident than that the promise of Christ to be with his disciples to the close of the age implies that they were to live to the close of the age ? That great consummation was not far off ; the Lord had often spoken of it, and always as an approaching event, one which some of them would live to lice. It was the winding up of the Mosaic dispensation; the end of the long probation of the theocratic nation; when the whole frame and fabric of the Jewish polity were to be swept away, and the kingdom of God to come with power. This great event, our Lord declared, was to fall within the limit of the existing generation." (The Parousia, p. 121.)
========================
Please visit my horses, chariots and carriage thread........

Revelation 18:13 "chariots, horses, bodies and souls of men"

I couldn't find a thread on this topic so I decided to create one

NT verses showing horses and chariots. There are actually 2 different Greek words used in Revelation for "chariot" which I have never noticed before.

Reve 9 appears to show battle chariots while Reve 18 is a type of wagon/carriage for carrying people and supplies?
Discuss........

716. harma har'-mah probably from 142 (perhaps with 1 (as a particle of union) prefixed); a chariot (as raised or fitted together (compare 719)):--chariot.
G716 matches the Greek ἅρμα (harma), occurs 4 times in 4 verses

Act 8:28 was returning. And sitting in his chariot, he was reading Isaiah the prophet.
Act 8:29 Then the Spirit said to Philip, “Go near and overtake this chariot.”
Act 8:38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

Revelation 9:9 And they had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots<716> with many horses running into battle.
=================================
Revelation 18:8 Thru this in one day shall be arriving<2240> Her blows, death and sorrow and famine. And in fire She shall be utterly burned<2618>,that strong Lord the GOD, the One judging Her.
9 And shall be lamenting<2799> over Her and shall be grieving/smiting selves<2875> over Her the kings of the earth,those with Her committing whoredom and indulging whenever they may be beholding<991> the smoke of Her firing<4451>.
10 From afar<3113> having stood because of the fear of the tormenting<929> of Her saying "Woe! woe! the great City Babylon! the strong City! That to one hour came the judging<2920> of Thee.
11 And the Merchants<1713> of the land are lamenting<2799> and mourning<3996> over Her, that their cargo<1117> no one is buying anymore.
12 Cargo of gold and silver, and precious stone and pearl and fine linen and purple, [Luke 16:19/Revelation 18:16] and silk, and scarlet, and all thyne wood, and every vessel of ivory, and every vessel of most precious wood and brass and iron and marble 13 and cinnamon, and odours, and ointment, and frankincense, and wine and oil and fine flour and wheat and cattle and sheep

4480. rheda hred'-ah of Latin origin; a rheda, i.e. four-wheeled carriage (wagon for riding):--chariot.

and of horses and of chariots<4480> and of bodies and souls of men.

14 ‘And the fruition<3703> of Thee of the yearning of Thy soul passed away<565> Thee,
and all the dainty and the splendid things perished<622> from Thee, and no longer not no Thou shall be finding them. 15 The Merchants of these, those being rich from Her,
from afar<3113> shall be standing, because of the fear of Her torment<929>, weeping<2799>, and mourning<3996>,
=============================================
In the next posts, we will explore their usage in the OT and put up commentaries.....

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

.... oops wrong section ....

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

... oops wrong section ....

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Invisible? No (there were signs for the disciples to look for - so it wasn't "invisible" or secret). Also - the results of His coming (in 70 A.D.) were tangible and life-changing.....so that's also NOT invisible.

Jesus in the flesh in 70 A.D., though? No, that's also not what I'm advocating.

Well, to be simple here, it looks like some teachers/ teachings/ who are wrong are being used deviously (subtly?) to try to support something else that is in error, as often happens on forums.
It is not something to delve deep into at this point, (the false teachers, if they are false, do not need to be even discussed yet) ,
until IF the false teaching comes to light, then they are identified as false teachers.

Do you have anything constructive to contribute to the OP instead of ranting and raving about everyone else that doesn't support your own man made doctrine.........

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

.... oops wrong section ....