Were the angels lying?

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I can never affirm universalism for it is not Scripture but anti-Scripture!

Now now, sounding a little 'cart-before-horse-ish' there.

One verse alone destroys that false premise of yours and fine linen!

I'm waiting expectantly...just what special silver bullet verse could it be?

Revelation 14:9-11 King James Version (KJV)
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

It's a powerful passage, the angel's warning, but I'm not sure if it gets you across the line. Ok there's the torment in v.10, check. And the smoke rising up in v.11, check. And the 'no rest day or night' also, check.

So let's look at the rising smoke...

Exhibit A:
This judgment on Edom will never end; the smoke of its burning will rise forever. The land will lie deserted from generation to generation. No one will live there anymore. (Isa 34:10)

upload_2019-10-18_17-59-11.jpeg


Looks fairly serene to me. No smoke rising there. Those Idumaeans like the 4 Herods never mentioned anything. What do you say?

Exhibit B:
Once more they cried out, “Hallelujah! The smoke from her goes up forever and ever.” (Rev 19:3) (Rejoicing in Heaven at the destruction of Babylon.)

And that's the last we hear of Babylon.

So the 'smoke rising forever' is idiomatic expression to mean it has gone never to return. As in 'Gone daddy gone.' Angels it seems prefer the former expression.

The 'no rest day or night' refers to the condition of devil-worshippers. Oh but does he work em overtime. Do you have to work long hours my friend to keep the $$ coming in? So long as you work for $ and not for God you'll have no rest day or night.

So it goes to v.14:3...
And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”

Ah, the enemies of Christ who die to themselves will enter into God's rest and blessing...? Certainly it's good news for the repentant - rest shall be their reward. So rejoice, there's hope!

Right, so putting it together, we've got a warning to unbelievers about being tormented by God's wrath from holding on to their satanic ways. But the torment will end and they'll get rest from their fruitless labours once they overcome that carnal rubbish. So surrender ye to Christ, for He saves you. It's the same gospel message we find throughout scripture - salvation man, albeit expressed in violent rhetorical language.
 
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Olethron aionion in 2Thess. 1:9

‘Aion, transliterated aeon, is a period of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself. Aristotle (peri ouravou, i. 9,15) says: “The period which includes the whole time of one’s life is called the aeon of each one.” Hence it often means the life of a man, as in Homer, where one’s life (aion) is said to leave him or to consume away (Iliad v. 685; Odyssey v. 160). It is not, however, limited to human life; it signifies any period in the course of events, as the period or age before Christ; the period of the millenium; the mythological period before the beginnings of history. The word has not “a stationary and mechanical value” (De Quincey). It does not mean a period of a fixed length for all cases. There are as many aeons as entities, the respective durations of which are fixed by the normal conditions of the several entities.

There is one aeon of a human life, another of the life of a nation, another of a crow’s life, another of an oak’s life. The length of the aeon depends on the subject to which it is attached.

It is sometimes translated world; world represents a period or a series of periods of time. See Matt 12:32; 13:40,49; Luke 1:70; 1 Cor 1:20; 2:6; Eph 1:21. Similarly oi aiones, the worlds, the universe, the aggregate of the ages or periods, and their contents which are included in the duration of the world. 1 Cor 2:7; 10:11; Heb 1:2; 9:26; 11:3. The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity.

It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come.

It does not mean something endless or everlasting. To deduce that meaning from its relation to aei is absurd; for, apart from the fact that the meaning of a word is not definitely fixed by its derivation, aei does not signify endless duration. When the writer of the Pastoral Epistles quotes the saying that the Cretans are always (aei) liars (Tit. 1:12), he surely does not mean that the Cretans will go on lying to all eternity. See also Acts 7:51; 2 Cor. 4:11; 6:10; Heb 3:10; 1 Pet. 3:15. Aei means habitually or continually within the limit of the subject’s life. In our colloquial dialect everlastingly is used in the same way. “The boy is everlastingly tormenting me to buy him a drum.”

In the New Testament the history of the world is conceived as developed through a succession of aeons. A series of such aeons precedes the introduction of a new series inaugurated by the Christian dispensation, and the end of the world and the second coming of Christ are to mark the beginning of another series. Eph. 1:21; 2:7; 3:9,21; 1 Cor 10:11; compare Heb. 9:26. He includes the series of aeons in one great aeon, ‘o aion ton aionon, the aeon of the aeons (Eph. 3:21); and the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews describe the throne of God as enduring unto the aeon of the aeons (Heb 1:8). The plural is also used, aeons of the aeons, signifying all the successive periods which make up the sum total of the ages collectively. Rom. 16:27; Gal. 1:5; Philip. 4:20, etc. This plural phrase is applied by Paul to God only.

The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting.

They may acquire that sense by their connotation, as, on the other hand, aidios, which means everlasting, has its meaning limited to a given point of time in Jude 6. Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods. Thus the phrase eis ton aiona, habitually rendered forever, is often used of duration which is limited in the very nature of the case. See, for a few out of many instances, LXX, Exod 21:6; 29:9; 32:13; Josh. 14:9 1 Sam 8:13; Lev. 25:46; Deut. 15:17; 1 Chron. 28:4;. See also Matt. 21:19; John 13:8 1 Cor. 8:13. The same is true of aionios. Out of 150 instances in LXX, four-fifths imply limited duration. For a few instances see Gen. 48:4; Num. 10:8; 15:15; Prov. 22:28; Jonah 2:6; Hab. 3:6; Isa. 61:17.

Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material cannot carry in themselves the sense of endlessness. Even when applied to God, we are not forced to render aionios everlasting.

Of course the life of God is endless; but the question is whether, in describing God as aionios, it was intended to describe the duration of his being, or whether some different and larger idea was not contemplated. That God lives longer then men, and lives on everlastingly, and has lived everlastingly, are, no doubt, great and significant facts; yet they are not the dominant or the most impressive facts in God’s relations to time.

God’s eternity does not stand merely or chiefly for a scale of length. It is not primarily a mathematical but a moral fact. The relations of God to time include and imply far more than the bare fact of endless continuance. They carry with them the fact that God transcends time; works on different principles and on a vaster scale than the wisdom of time provides; oversteps the conditions and the motives of time; marshals the successive aeons from a point outside of time, on lines which run out into his own measureless cycles, and for sublime moral ends which the creature of threescore and ten years cannot grasp and does not even suspect.

There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded.

That aiodios occurs rarely in the New Testament and in LXX does not prove that its place was taken by aionios. It rather goes to show that less importance was attached to the bare idea of everlastingness than later theological thought has given it. Paul uses the word once, in Rom. 1:20, where he speaks of “the everlasting power and divinity of God.” In Rom. 16:26 he speaks of the eternal God (tou aioniou theou); but that he does not mean the everlasting God is perfectly clear from the context. He has said that “the mystery” has been kept in silence in times eternal (chronois aioniois), by which he does not mean everlasting times, but the successive aeons which elapsed before Christ was proclaimed. God therefore is described as the God of the aeons, the God who pervaded and controlled those periods before the incarnation. To the same effect is the title ‘o basileus ton aionon, the King of the aeons, applied to God in 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 15:3; compare Tob. 13:6, 10.

The phrase pro chronon aionion, before eternal times (2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2), cannot mean before everlasting times. To say that God bestowed grace on men, or promised them eternal life before endless times, would be absurd. The meaning is of old, as Luke 1:70. The grace and the promise were given in time, but far back in the ages, before the times of reckoning the aeons.

Zoe aionios eternal life, which occurs 42 times in N. T., but not in LXX, is not endless life, but life pertaining to a certain age or aeon, or continuing during that aeon. I repeat, life may be endless. The life in union with Christ is endless, but the fact is not expressed by aionios. Kolasis aionios, rendered everlasting punishment (Matt. 25:46), is the punishment peculiar to an aeon other then that in which Christ is speaking. In some cases zoe aionios does not refer specifically to the life beyond time, but rather to the aeon or dispensation of Messiah which succeeds the legal dispensation. See Matt. 19:16; John 5:39. John says that zoe aionios is the present possession of those who believe on the Son of God, John 3:36; 5:24; 6:47,54. The Father’s commandment is zoe aionios, John 1250; to know the only true God and Jesus Christ is zoe aionios. John 17:3.

Bishop Westcott very justly says, commenting upon the terms used by John to describe life under different aspects: “In considering these phrases it is necessary to premise that in spiritual things we must guard against all conclusions which rest upon the notions of succession and duration. ‘Eternal life’ is that which St. Paul speaks of as ‘e outos Zoe the life which is life indeed, and ‘e zoe tou theou, the life of God. It is not an endless duration of being in time, but being of which time is not a measure. We have indeed no powers to grasp the idea except through forms and images of sense. These must be used, but we must not transfer them as realities to another order.”

Thus, while aionios carries the idea of time, though not of endlessness, there belongs to it also, more or less, a sense of quality. Its character is ethical rather than mathematical.

The deepest significance of the life beyond time lies, not in endlessness, but in the moral quality of the aeon into which the life passes. It is comparatively unimportant whether or not the rich fool, when his soul was required of him (Luke 12:20), entered upon a state that was endless. The principal, the tremendous fact, as Christ unmistakably puts it, was that, in the new aeon, the motives, the aims, the conditions, the successes and awards of time counted for nothing. In time, his barns and their contents were everything; the soul was nothing. In the new life the soul was first and everything, and the barns and storehouses nothing. The bliss of the sanctified does not consist primarily in its endlessness, but in the nobler moral conditions of the new aeon, the years of the holy and eternal God. Duration is a secondary idea. When it enters it enters as an accompaniment and outgrowth of moral conditions.

In the present passage it is urged that olethron destruction points to an unchangeable, irremediable, and endless condition.

If this be true, if olethros is extinction, then the passage teaches the annihilation of the wicked, in which case the adjective aionios is superfluous, since extinction is final, and excludes the idea of duration. But olethros does not always mean destruction or extinction. Take the kindred verb apollumi to destroy, put an end to, or in the middle voice, to be lost, to perish. Peter says “the world being deluged with water, perished (apoleto, 2 Pet. 3:6); but the world did not become extinct, it was renewed. In Heb. 1:11,12, quoted from Ps. 102, we read concerning the heavens and the earth as compared with the eternity of God, “they shall perish” (apolountai). But the perishing is only preparatory to change and renewal. “They shall be changed” (allagesontai). Compare Isa. 51:6,16; 65:22; 2 Pet. 3:13; Rev. 21:1. Similarly, “the Son of man came to save that which was lost” (apololos), Luke 19:10. Jesus charged his apostles to go to the lost (apololota) sheep of the house of Israel, Matt. 10:6, compare 15:24, “He that shall lose (apolese) his life for my sake shall find it,” Matt. 16:25. Compare Luke 15:6,9,32.

In this passage, the word destruction is qualified.

It is “destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power,” at his second coming, in the new aeon. In other words, it is the severance, at a given point of time, of those who obey not the gospel from the presence and the glory of Christ. Aionios may therefore describe this severance as continuing during the millenial aeon between Christ’s coming and the final judgment; as being for the wicked prolonged throughout that aeon and characteristic of it, or it may describe the severance as characterising or enduring through a period or aeon succeeding the final judgment, the extent of which period is not defined. In neither case is aionios, to be interpreted as everlasting or endless.

If we cross-reference olethros with 1Co. 5:5, with its derivative olothrūo in He. 11:28, we will see that utter annihilation does not fit. For example, take the extermination of the “first-born” of Egypt (He. 11:28): Were all these innocent babies utterly annihilated before God? Also, though Satan destroys the flesh of the saved, we know God restores it in the resurrection (1Co. 5:5). Even were God to utterly annihilate someone, has He not the power to restore (De. 32:39; 1Sa. 2:6; Mt. 3:9)?

Also, if we cross-reference olethros with 1Co. 5:5, with its derivative olothrūo in He. 11:28, we will see that utter annihilation does not fit. For example, take the extermination of the “first-born” of Egypt (He. 11:28): Were all these innocent babies utterly annihilated before God? Also, though Satan destroys the flesh of the saved, we know God restores it in the resurrection (1Co. 5:5). Even were God to utterly annihilate someone, has He not the power to restore (De. 32:39; 1Sa. 2:6; Mt. 3:9)? -Dr. Marvin Vincent-

https://www.hopefaithprayer.com/books/Word-Studies-in-the-New-Testament-Vol-1&2-Marvin-R-Vincent.pdf

All that writing to be so so wrong!

Just look up the word eternal in the greek--it is aionios!

Yes aeon does refer toa time period. But it does not require a specified ending! Context determines its start and end if it has one. When referring to the existence of God and heaven aeon has o end point to that age!

And the heretic you cite ends with a false question?

Yes God can restore what He destroys, but HIs Word has very unambiguously declared He won't so that philosophical question is moot!

I hope if you choose to answer me- you will not muddy your response with loads of useless philosophical verbage.
 
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nolidad

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Now now, sounding a little 'cart-before-horse-ish' there.



I'm waiting expectantly...just what special silver bullet verse could it be?



It's a powerful passage, the angel's warning, but I'm not sure if it gets you across the line. Ok there's the torment in v.10, check. And the smoke rising up in v.11, check. And the 'no rest day or night' also, check.

So let's look at the rising smoke...

Exhibit A:
This judgment on Edom will never end; the smoke of its burning will rise forever. The land will lie deserted from generation to generation. No one will live there anymore. (Isa 34:10)

View attachment 265190

Looks fairly serene to me. No smoke rising there. Those Idumaeans like the 4 Herods never mentioned anything. What do you say?

Exhibit B:
Once more they cried out, “Hallelujah! The smoke from her goes up forever and ever.” (Rev 19:3) (Rejoicing in Heaven at the destruction of Babylon.)

And that's the last we hear of Babylon.

So the 'smoke rising forever' is idiomatic expression to mean it has gone never to return. As in 'Gone daddy gone.' Angels it seems prefer the former expression.

The 'no rest day or night' refers to the condition of devil-worshippers. Oh but does he work em overtime. Do you have to work long hours my friend to keep the $$ coming in? So long as you work for $ and not for God you'll have no rest day or night.

So it goes to v.14:3...
And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”

Ah, the enemies of Christ who die to themselves will enter into God's rest and blessing...? Certainly it's good news for the repentant - rest shall be their reward. So rejoice, there's hope!

Right, so putting it together, we've got a warning to unbelievers about being tormented by God's wrath from holding on to their satanic ways. But the torment will end and they'll get rest from their fruitless labours once they overcome that carnal rubbish. So surrender ye to Christ, for He saves you. It's the same gospel message we find throughout scripture - salvation man, albeit expressed in violent rhetorical language.

No! After 45 years of walking with god- I firmly keep the horse before the cart!

It is sad that the best evidence you present is english passages of verses and fail the basic rule of grammar---CONTEXT!

Sometime forever means a certain age (we were weak as English people in translating Scripture) But if you want a clarified reading of all those passages and why, I can send you a link in Basdic Greek and Hebrew in defining how words are used!

The mistake you make is a typical mistake of one who has read the Bible in Englishy but failed to plumg the original languages and how words were used and how, when attached to the verbs used bring about a varied meaning than the simple one line translation many many times!@
 
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FineLinen

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All that writing to be so so wrong!

Just look up the word eternal in the greek--it is aionios!

Yes aeon does refer toa time period. But it does not require a specified ending! Context determines its start and end if it has one. When referring to the existence of God and heaven aeon has o end point to that age!

And the heretic you cite ends with a false question?

Yes God can restore what He destroys, but HIs Word has very unambiguously declared He won't so that philosophical question is moot!

I hope if you choose to answer me- you will not muddy your response with loads of useless philosophical verbage.

iu


Noli: Dr. M. Vincent has forgotten more than you will likely know for the next few aeons. He stands with the great koine authorities including A.T Robertson.

There are precisely two (2) passages of Scripture using the word aidios (eternal). Aionios, on the other hand, is NOT a time related word and is clearly demonstrated by St. John the beloved as such.

"This is zoe aionios, that we may know You..."

Yes indeed, aionios transcends time into calibre of life!

Dr. Marvin Vincent N.T. Word Studies >>>>

Vincent's NT Word Studies

 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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The mistake you make is a typical mistake of one who has read the Bible in Englishy but failed to plumg the original languages and how words were used and how, when attached to the verbs used bring about a varied meaning than the simple one line translation many many times!@
What if it is done on purpose to try to support a false teaching - and not as if an accidental mistake ?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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All that writing to be so so wrong!
Just look up the word eternal in the greek--it is aionios!
Yes aeon does refer toa time period. But it does not require a specified ending! Context determines its start and end if it has one. When referring to the existence of God and heaven aeon has o end point to that age!
And the heretic you cite ends with a false question?
Yes God can restore what He destroys, but HIs Word has very unambiguously declared He won't so that philosophical question is moot!
I hope if you choose to answer me- you will not muddy your response with loads of useless philosophical verbage.
Again, the false teachings/teachers seeking to support something unbiblical, error on purpose to support a false teaching ? Isn't this different than accidental mistake ?
 
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No! After 45 years of walking with god- I firmly keep the horse before the cart!

If you say so, but I'd have hoped you'd have had a little more confidence in Him by now.

It is sad that the best evidence you present is english passages of verses and fail the basic rule of grammar---CONTEXT!

Hm, the context I chose was the scriptural precedents of smoke rising forever and ever. As it turned out, it does not mean 'continuously rising' but rather 'conclusively rising', the image is one of watching a puff of smoke rise until it's gone, not a perpetual train of smoke. As usual, the Bible deals in dynamic expressions - prophetic rhetoric moves us forward, we don't just get fixated on something.

The mistake you make is a typical mistake of one who has read the Bible in Englishy but failed to plumg the original languages and how words were used and how, when attached to the verbs used bring about a varied meaning than the simple one line translation many many times!@

Well that's why I did not go to the translation, but used an example of prophecy past that actually occurred - the destruction of Edom. There's no smoke issuing from Edom to this day, so that would militate against the 'ol' smokey' reading you prefer.

And moreover, why are we not being guided by the spirit, given that the spirit gives life but the letter kills. The hermeneutical principle to take from this teaching is to resolve any potential ambiguity or uncertainty by favoring the interpretation that leads to life, is it not?
 
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"The angel said to them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people."

Fear not= phobeō mē

Glad tidings = euaggelizō

Great = megas

Joy = chara

Shall be = esomai

To all people = pas laos

The angel said, “Don’t be afraid. I’m here to announce a great and joyful event that is meant for everybody, worldwide: A Savior has just been born in David’s town, a Savior who is Messiah and Master.

Questions

1. Were the angels lying?

2. Is the mega joy announced truly for all people?

3. What does all mean?
Since they already live in eternity, they can truthfully say ".... which shall be to all people."
 
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nolidad

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iu


Noli: Dr. M. Vincent has forgotten more than you will likely know for the next few aeons. He stands with the great koine authorities including A.T Robertson.

There are precisely two (2) passages of Scripture using the word aidios (eternal). Aionios, on the other hand, is NOT a time related word and is clearly demonstrated by St. John the beloved as such.

"This is zoe aionios, that we may know You..."

Yes indeed, aionios transcends time into calibre of life!

Dr. Marvin Vincent N.T. Word Studies >>>>

Vincent's NT Word Studies


So then God is not eternal according ot you for He is aionios!

Aionios is translated everlasting 25 times n the NT
Aionios is translated eternal 42 times in the NT it refers to a quality and a duration!
aion is translated eternal 2 times in the NT and both are time!

Those are facts! I know Robertsons theology and he concurs that aionios also refers to non ending time! As for Vincent I do not know why he is wrong in his conclusion. No manuscript or translation supports him! Unless of course he is speaking of formal greek like the philosophers you mentioned used. On that I cannot agree or disagree for I do not know the more formal Hellenistic greek
 
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nolidad

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What if it is done on purpose to try to support a false teaching - and not as if an accidental mistake ?

Well maybe somewhere down the line someone was intentional (definitely Augustine) but I prefer 1 Cor. 13 and think the best and believe that today all or nearly all are merely victims of a lie from long long ago.
 
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nolidad

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Again, the false teachings/teachers seeking to support something unbiblical, error on purpose to support a false teaching ? Isn't this different than accidental mistake ?

If they are intentional then yes! but as I am not the one who reads hearts- I have to leave that to the Lord and respond to the false teaching and hope the one who espouses it is merely a victim of that bad teaching.
 
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nolidad

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If you say so, but I'd have hoped you'd have had a little more confidence in Him by now.



Hm, the context I chose was the scriptural precedents of smoke rising forever and ever. As it turned out, it does not mean 'continuously rising' but rather 'conclusively rising', the image is one of watching a puff of smoke rise until it's gone, not a perpetual train of smoke. As usual, the Bible deals in dynamic expressions - prophetic rhetoric moves us forward, we don't just get fixated on something.



Well that's why I did not go to the translation, but used an example of prophecy past that actually occurred - the destruction of Edom. There's no smoke issuing from Edom to this day, so that would militate against the 'ol' smokey' reading you prefer.

And moreover, why are we not being guided by the spirit, given that the spirit gives life but the letter kills. The hermeneutical principle to take from this teaching is to resolve any potential ambiguity or uncertainty by favoring the interpretation that leads to life, is it not?

It sounds like you got yor context from teh New World Mistranslation of th eScriptures.

But teh greek manuscripts say aion to aion or ages to ages which means forever

Well I am glad you think I lack confidence. But like all others here who have been presumptiously wrong about me- you have no clue about how much I trust or do not trust Him.

Concerning Edom- you made two errors!

First that prophesy has yet to come.
Second "owlam" also means an indefinite time frame. Context determines meaning and owlam does not =aionios in many cases!
 
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So then God is not eternal according ot you for He is aionios!

Aionios is translated everlasting 25 times n the NT
Aionios is translated eternal 42 times in the NT it refers to a quality and a duration!
aion is translated eternal 2 times in the NT and both are time!

Those are facts! I know Robertsons theology and he concurs that aionios also refers to non ending time! As for Vincent I do not know why he is wrong in his conclusion. No manuscript or translation supports him! Unless of course he is speaking of formal greek like the philosophers you mentioned used. On that I cannot agree or disagree for I do not know the more formal Hellenistic greek

Noli: God is NOT eternal on the basis of aionios! NOT!

I have high regard for A.T. Robertson, Dr. Marvin Vincent, Dr. Wm. Barclay and others of like calibre. One of the others is Dr. O. Boyd Jenkins.

Time or Character, The Ages or A Time Sequence in <em>aionios</em>: How Words "Mean" in Greek and English

There shall be chronos no longer
 
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FineLinen

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“Of all the arguments on this question, the one which appears to me the most absolutely and hopelessly futile, is the one in which so many seem to rest with entire content; viz. that "eternal or aeonian life" must mean endless life, and therefore that “aeonian chastisement” must mean “endless chastisement.”

This battered and aged argument, . . . if it had possessed a particle of cogency, would not have been set aside as entirely valueless by such minds as those of Origen and the two Gregories in ancient days, nor by multitudes in the days of St. Augustine and St. Jerome, nor by the most brilliant thinker among the schoolmen, nor by many of our greatest living divines . . . . No proposition is capable of more simple proof than that aeonian is not a synonym of endless. It only means, or can mean, in its primary sense, pertaining to an aeon, and therefore “indefinite,” since an aeon may be either long or short; and in its secondary sense “spiritual,” “pertaining to the unseen world,” “an attribute of that which is above and beyond time,” an attribute expressive not of duration but of quality. Can such an explanation of the word be denied by any competent or thoughtful reader of John 5:39; 6:54; 17:3; 1 John 5:13,20? Would not the introduction of the word “endless” into those Divine utterances be an unspeakable degradation of their meaning? And as for the argument that the redeemed would thus lose their promised bliss, it is at once so unscriptural and so selfish that, after what Mr. Cox and others have said of it, one may hope that no one will ever be able to use it again without a blush. I cannot here diverge into a discussion with Bishop Wordsworth and Canon Ryle, whose sermons need some adversaria rather longer than I can here devote to them; but as they both dwell on the fact that people who spoke Greek interpreted aionios to mean endless, I reply that some of the greatest masters of Greek, both in classical times and among the Fathers, saw quite clearly that, though the word might connote endlessness by being attributively added to endless things, it had in itself no such meaning. I cannot conceive how any candid mind can deny the force of these considerations. If even Origenists would freely speak of future punishment as aionios but never as ateleutetos [without end] –– if, as even these papers have shown, Plato uses the word as the antithesis of endlessness –– if St. Gregory of Nyssa uses it as the epithet of “an interval”–– if, as though to leave this Augustinian argument without the faintest shadow of a foundation, there are absolutely two passages of Scripture (Hab.3:6 and Rom.16:25,26) where the very word occurs in two consecutive clauses, and is, in the second of the two clauses, applied to God, and yet is, in the first of the two clauses, applied to things which are temporary or terminated –– what shall be said of disputants who still enlist the controversial services of a phantom which has been so often laid in the tomb from which it ought never again to emerge? How is it that not one out of the scores of writers who have animadverted on my book have so much as noticed the very remarkable fact to which I have called attention, that those who followed Origen in holding out a possible hope beyond the grave founded their argument for the terminability of torments on the acknowledged sense of this very word, and on the fact that other words and phrases which do unmistakably mean endless are used of the duration of good, but are never used of the duration of evil?” -F.W. Farrar

In His book “God’s Methods with Man” the Rev. G. Campbell Morgan says this about the word “eternal”: “Let me say to Bible students that we must be very careful how we use the word “eternity.” We have fallen into great error in our constant use of that word. There is no word in the whole Book of God corresponding with our “eternal,” which, as commonly used among us, means absolutely without end. The strongest Scripture word used with reference to the existence of God, is–“unto the ages of the ages,” which does not literally mean eternally. Let us remember however that the self-same word, which is thus used in connection with the existence of God, is also applied to the loss of the human soul. Men have divided the Church, separated from each other, and persecuted one another, upon a thought conveyed by an English word which has no equivalent in the Bible.” -G. Campbell Morgan
 
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nolidad

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Noli: God is NOT eternal on the basis of aionios! NOT!

I have high regard for A.T. Robertson, Dr. Marvin Vincent, Dr. Wm. Barclay and others of like calibre. One of the others is Dr. O. Boyd Jenkins.

Time or Character, The Ages or A Time Sequence in <em>aionios</em>: How Words "Mean" in Greek and English

There shall be chronos no longer

Well God is eternal and aionios also describes his neverbeginning and never endingness! See I know eternal also refers to quality as well as quantity. But what you and your scholars seem to forget it also is used to connote length of quality and context determines which is used!
 
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Noli: If (a big IF) aionios means eternal, please explain aionios in plural form or what before aionios means?

Well aionios is an adjective and as such has no plural form!

aion is the noun .

Simple definition of aiopnios?

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon



Strong's Number: 166 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
aijwvnioß from (165)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Aionios 1:208,31
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ahee-o'-nee-os Adjective
Definition
  1. without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
  2. without beginning
  3. without end, never to cease, everlasting
King James Word Usage - Total: 71
eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + (5550)&version=kjv 2, since the world began + (5550) 1, for ever 1

What you forget is our language uses far more words than the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek had! So context and verb form are used to fully develop meaning!

Like "owlam" in hebrew! Strictly defined it means hidden or undefined. But because the Hebrews had no word for eternal- "owlam" came to mean eternal
 
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FineLinen

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Professor Knapp, the author of an edition of the Greek Testament, one in use in many colleges, observes >>>

“The pure idea of eternity is too abstract to have been conceived in the early ages of the world, and accordingly is not found expressed by any word in the ancient languages. But as cultivation advanced and this idea became more distinctly developed, it became necessary in order to express it to invent new words in a new sense, as was done with the words eternitas, perennitas, etc. The Hebrews were destitute of any single word to express endless duration. To express a past eternity they said before the world was; a future, when the world shall be no more. . . . The Hebrews and other ancient people have no one word for expressing the precise idea of eternity.”

Hasting’s Dictionary of the New Testament

“There is no word either in the O.T. Hebrew or in the N.T. Greek to express the abstract idea of eternity.” (p. 542 Vol. I
 
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What The New Testament Teaches

Aeonian Life Passes Into A Region Above Time


Let us consider the true meaning of the words “aion” and “aionios”.

These are the originals of the terms rendered by our translators “everlasting,” for ever and ever" and on this translation, so misleading, a vast portion of the popular dogma of endless torment is built up. I say, without hesitation, misleading and incorrect; for “aion” means “an age,” a limited period, whether long or short, though often of indefinite length; and the adjective “aionios” means “of the age,” “age-long,” “aeonian,” and NEVER “everlasting” (of its own proper force), it is true that it may be applied as an epithet to things that are endless, but the idea of endlessness in all such cases comes not from the epithet, but only because it is inherent in the object to which the epithet is applied, as in the case of God…

NOTE:

The word “Aionios” by itself, whether adjective or substantive, never means endless"–Canon Farrar -

“The conception of eternity, in the Semitic languages, is that of a long duration and series of ages.”–Rev. J. S. Blunt-- Dictionary of Theology.

" 'Tis notoriously known," says Bishop Rust, “that the Jews, whether writing in Hebrew or Greek, do by ‘olam’ (the Hebrew word corresponding to “aion”), and aion mean any remarkable period or duration, whether it be of life, or dispensation, or polity.”

The word aion is never used in Scripture, or anywhere else, in the sense of endlessness (vulgarly called eternity), it always meant, both in Scripture and out, a period of time; else how could it have a plural–how could you talk of the aeons and aeons of aeons as the Scripture does? -C. Kingsley-

So the secular games, celebrated every century were called “eternal” by the Greeks.–(See HUET, Orig. 2 Page 162)

…Much has been written on the import of the aeonian (eternal) life. Altogether to exclude, (with Maurice) the notion of time seems impracticable, and opposed to the general usage of the New Testament (and of the Septuagint). But while this is so, we may fully recognize that the phrase “eternal life” (aeonian life) does at times pass into a region above time, a region wholly moral and spiritual. Thus, in Saint John, the aeonian life (eternal life), of which he speaks, is a life not measured by duration, but a life in the unseen, life in God. Thus, e.g., God’s commandment is life eternal,–ib. 17.3, and Christ is the eternal life.–1 John 1:2, 20.

Quality & Quantity

Admitting, then, the usual reference of aionios to time, we note in the word a tendency to rise above this idea, to denote quality, rather than quantity, to indicate the true, the spiritual, in opposition to the unreal, or the earthly. In this sense the eternal is now and here. Thus “eternal” punishment is one thing, and “everlasting” punishment a very different thing, and so it is that our Revisers have substituted for “everlasting” the word “eternal” in every passage in the New Testament, where aionios is the original word. Further, if we take the term strictly, eternal punishment is impossible, for “eternal” in strictness has no beginning.

Aaronic Priesthood Long Ceased To Exist

Again, a point of great importance is this, that it would have been impossible for the Jews, as it is impossible for us, to accept Christ, except by assigning a limited–nay, a very limited duration–to those Mosaic ordinances which were said in the Old Testament to be “for ever,” to be “everlasting” (aeonian). Every line of the New Testament, nay, the very existence of Christianity is thus in fact a proof of the limited sense of aionios in Scripture. Our Baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ, our Holy Communion, every prayer uttered in a Christian Church, or in our homes, in the name of the Lord Jesus: our hopes of being “for ever with the Lord”–these contain one and all an affirmation most real, though tacit, of the temporary sense of aionios.

Aionios Repeatedly Applied To Things That Have Long Ago Ceased To Exist

As a further illustration of the meaning of aion and aionios, let me point out that in the Greek version of the Old Testament (the Septuagint)–in common use among the Jews in our Lord’s time, from which He and the Apostles usually quoted, and whose authority, therefore, should be decisive on this point–these terms are repeatedly applied to things that have long ceased to exist.

Thus

The Aaronic priesthood is said to be “everlasting,” -Numb.25:13-

The land of Canaan is given as an “everlasting” possession, and “for ever” -Gen. 17:8…Gen. 18:15-

In Deut. 23:3, “for ever” is distinctly made an equivalent to “even to the tenth generation.”

In Lamentations 5:19, “for ever and ever” is the equivalent of from “generation to generation.”

The inhabitants of Palestine are to be bondsmen “for ever” -Lev. 25:46-

In Numb. 18:19, the heave offerings of the holy things are a covenant “for ever.”

Caleb obtains his inheritance “for ever” -Joshua 14:9-

And David’s seed is to endure “for ever,” his throne “for ever,” his house “for ever;” nay, the passover is to endure “for ever;” and in Isa. 32:14, the forts and towers shall be “dens for ever, until the spirit be poured upon us.”

So in Jude 7, Sodom and Gomorrah are said to be suffering the vengeance of eternal (aeonian) fire, i.e., their temporal overthrow by fire, for they have a definite promise of final restoration.–(Ezek. 16:55)

Christ’s Kingdom Is To Last Forever & Yet

And Christ’s kingdom is to last “for ever,” yet we are distinctly told that this very kingdom is to end.–(I Cor. 15:24) Indeed, quotation might be added to quotation, both from the Bible and from early authors, to prove this limited meaning of aion and its derivatives; but enough has probably been said to prove that it is wholly impossible, and indeed absurd, to contend that any idea of endless duration is necessarily or commonly implied by either aion or aionios.

NOTE:

Thus Josephus calls “aeonian,” the temple of Herod, which was actually destroyed when he wrote. PHILO never uses aionios of endless duration.

Aion Either Means Endless Duration Or It Does Not

Further, if this translation of aionios as “eternal,” in the sense of endless, be correct, aion must mean eternity, i.e., endless duration. But so to render it would reduce Scripture to an absurdity.

In the first place, you would have over and over again to talk of the “eternities.” We can comprehend what “eternity” is, but what are the “eternities?” You cannot have more than one eternity. The doxology would run thus: “Thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, unto the eternities.”

In the case of the sin against the Holy Ghost, the translation would then be, “it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this eternity nor in that to come.”

Our Lord’s words, (Matt. 13:39), would then be, “the harvest is the end of the eternity,” i.e., the end of the endless, which is to make our Lord talk nonsense.

Again, in Mark 4:19, the translation should be, “the cares,” not of “this world,” but “the cares of this eternity choke the word.”

In Luke 16:8, “The children of this world,” should be “the children of this eternity.”

In 1 Cor. 10:11, the words, “upon whom the ends of the world are come,” should be: “the ends of the eternities.”

Take next, Gal. 1:4: “That He might deliver us from this present evil world,” should run thus: “from this present evil eternity.”

In 2 Tim. 4:10, the translation should be: “Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present eternity.”

And “Now once at the end of the ages hath He been manifested,” should read, on the popular view, “at the end of the eternities.”

Let me state the dilemma clearly. Aion either means endless duration as its necessary, or at least its ordinary significance, or it does not. If it does, the following difficulties at once arise;

Difficulties

  1. How, if it mean an endless period, can aion have a plural?

  2. How came such phrases to be used as those repeatedly occurring in Scripture, where aion is added to aion, if aion is of itself infinite?

  3. How come such phrases as for the “aion” or aions and beyond?–ton aiona kai ep aiona kai eti: eis tous aionas kai eti.–(see Sept. Ex. 15:18…Dan. 12:3…Micah 4:5)

  4. How is it that we repeatedly read of the end of the aion?–Matt. 13:39-40-49;…Matt. 24:3…Matt. 28:20…1 Cor. 10:11…Hebr. 9:26.

  5. Finally, if aion be infinite, why is it applied over and over to what is strictly finite? e.g. Mark 4:19…Acts 3:21…Rom. 12:2…1 Cor. 1:20…1 Cor. 2:6…1 Cor. 3:18, 10:11, etc. etc.
If Aion Is Not Infinite

But if aion be not infinite, what right have we to render the adjective aionios (which depends for its meaning on aion) by the terms “eternal” (when used as the equivalent of “endless”) and “everlasting?”

Indeed our translators have really done further hurt to those who can only read their English Bible.

They have, wholly obscured a very important doctrine, that of “the ages.” This when fully understood throws a flood of light on the plan of redemption, and the method of the divine working. Take a few instances which show the force and clearness gained, by restoring the true rendering of the words aion and aionios.

Turn to Matt. 24:3. There our version represents the disciples as asking “what should be the sign of the end of the world.” It should be the end of the “age;” the close of the Jewish age marked by the fall of Jerusalem.

In Matt. 13:39-40-49, the true rendering is not the end of the “world,” but of the “age,” an important change.

So John 17:3, “this is life eternal,” should be “the life of the ages,” i.e., peculiar to those ages, in which the scheme of salvation is being worked out.

Or take Heb 5:9; Heb. 9:12; Heb. 13:20, “eternal salvation” should be “aeonian” or of the ages; “eternal redemption” is the redemption “of the ages;” the eternal covenant is the “covenant of the ages,” the covenant peculiar to the ages of redemption.

In Eph. 3:11, “the eternal purpose” is really the purpose of “the ages,” i.e., worked out in “the ages.”

In Eph. 3:21, there occurs a suggestive phrase altogether obscured (as usual, where this word is in question), by our version, “until all the generations of the age of the ages.” Thus it runs in the original, and it is altogether unfair to conceal this elaborate statement by merely rendering “throughout all ages.”

In 1 Cor. 10:11 “the ends of the world” are the “ends of the ages.” In 1 Cor. 2:6-7-8, the word aion is four times translated “world,” it should be "age’ or “ages” in all cases.

And here it is impossible to avoid asking how–assuming that aion does mean “world” in these cases–how it can yield, as an adjective, such a term as “everlasting?” If it mean “world,” then the adjective should be “worldly,” “of the world.” And great force and freshness would be gained in our version by always adhering to the one rendering “age.”
 
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