Taxing the rich to help poor is theft

dogs4thewin

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If you have a high standard of living then you're spending on yourself and not on others. Again, the very definition of greed.

Do you think that as long as you give something away then you aren't greedy?
no, but that does not mean that people should not enjoy the living they made for themselves and not and be forced to live the same standard as someone else.
 
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RaymondG

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Nope. I'm not talking about the hard work you put in to get stuff. I'm talking about keeping stuff after you get it.
So I would only be greedy if I decided to can the tomatoes and store them? If I pickled the extra cucumbers and store them. After giving away so much that everyone was tired of eating them.......I threw away some and canned what I could.

You would come to my house and judge that I was greedy because of the surplus you saw that I had stored?
 
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dogs4thewin

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Where do they say not to?
It does not have to directly say not to in order to say that force of law is not the way Jesus expects us to help others.
 
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Moral Orel

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So I would only be greedy if I decided to can the tomatoes and store them? If I pickled the extra cucumbers and store them. After giving away so much that everyone was tired of eating them.......I threw away some and canned would I could.

You would come to my house and judge that I was greedy because of the surplus you saw that I had stored?
What the what? You solved world hunger?
 
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dogs4thewin

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He said that he gave away so many tomatoes and cucumbers that everyone was tired of eating them, so yeah, he did.
Everyone in his area was what I got from that not all the people in the world.
 
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RaymondG

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He said that he gave away so many tomatoes and cucumbers that everyone was tired of eating them, so yeah, he did.
Ok, so the answer is yes, that you would judge one greedy who canned tomatoes that were left over?
 
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RaymondG

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Everyone in his area was what I got from that not all the people in the world.
And trust me.....after eating so many cucumbers they start to enter your dreams......so I understood not wanting any more.....

It is a strange notion that you are greedy if you have leftovers.... A notion that could never be uttered by one who truly desires to give. For is it a fact that the more you give the more you will receive.....
 
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GoldenBoy89

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It does not have to directly say not to in order to say that force of law is not the way Jesus expects us to help others.
But it’s true that at no point is taxation actually condemned by Jesus.
 
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Ricky M

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Well...what did Jesus say?

18A certain ruler asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

19“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 20You know the commandments: ‘You shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.’ a

21“All these I have kept since I was a boy,” he said.

22When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

23When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was very wealthy. 24Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! 25Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”


This wasn't 10, 20. 30, 40 , 95% but ALL
So was Jesus the 1st thief of the rich?
Yet another Christian defending their right to acquire wealth at other's expense. Go figger.
 
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dogs4thewin

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But it’s true that at no point is taxation actually condemned by Jesus.
nope it never was but that is not the same as giving under force of law. Jesus understood that there are certain things needed to maintain a society, but that is not the same as not expecting people to pull their own weight.
 
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dogs4thewin

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Yet another Christian defending their right to acquire wealth at other's expense. Go figger.
so are you supposing that everyone should have the same thing? Remember Jesus said the poor will always be among us not that the SAME poor will always be among us.
 
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Albion

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Well...what did Jesus say?
According to the title you chose for this thread, the subject is supposed to be about taxation; but immediately you talk as though private charity is the topic. :sigh:

Pick one...and we'll see where the discussion goes.
 
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GoldenBoy89

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nope it never was but that is not the same as giving under force of law. Jesus understood that there are certain things needed to maintain a society, but that is not the same as not expecting people to pull their own weight.
Certainly everyone should pull their own weight but that’s entirely different from taxation and what to do with the money. If a society decides it wants to use tax dollars to help the poor in their country instead of wasting it in foreign wars, I don’t see how Jesus would be against that. The money is already being collected and we already established that Jesus was not against taxation in principle, he even says that you should pay your taxes to Caesar so, what’s the problem?
 
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Ricky M

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From the OT:

Leviticus 19:13 You shall not oppress your neighbor, nor rob him. The wages of a hired man are not to remain with you all night until morning.

Deuteronomy 8:17-18 You may say in your heart, “The power and the strength of my hand has made this wealth for me.” But remember that it is the LORD your God who gives you the power to gain wealth, in order to confirm His covenant that He swore to your fathers, as it is this day.

Deuteronomy 24:12-15 If he is a poor man, you shall not sleep with his pledge. When the sun goes down you shall surely return the pledge to him, that he may sleep in his cloak and bless you; and it will be righteousness for you before the LORD your God. You shall not oppress a hired servant who is poor and needy, whether he is one of your countrymen or one of your aliens who is in your land in your towns.

Deuteronomy 32:15 Jeshurun grew fat and kicked; filled with food, they became heavy and sleek. They abandoned the God who made them and rejected the Rock their Savior.

Nehemiah 9:25-26 They captured fortified cities and a fertile land They took possession of houses full of every good thing, Hewn cisterns, vineyards, olive groves, Fruit trees in abundance So they ate, were filled and grew fat, and reveled in Your great goodness. "But they became disobedient and rebelled against You, And cast Your law behind their backs And killed Your prophets who had admonished them So that they might return to You, And they committed great blasphemies.

Job 31:24-28 If I have put my confidence in gold, And called fine gold my trust, If I have gloated because my wealth was great, And because my hand had secured so much; If I have looked at the sun when it shone or the moon going in splendor, And my heart became secretly enticed, And my hand threw a kiss from my mouth, That too would have been an iniquity calling for judgment, For I would have denied God above.

Job 20:17-20 He does not look at the streams, the rivers flowing with honey and curds. He returns what he has attained and cannot swallow it; As to the riches of his trading, He cannot even enjoy them. For he has oppressed and forsaken the poor; He has seized a house which he has not built. Because he knew no quiet within him, He does not retain anything he desires.

Psalm 52:6-7 The righteous will see and fear, and will laugh at him, saying, "Behold, the man who would not make God his refuge, But trusted in the abundance of his riches And was strong in his evil desire."

Psalm 62:10 Do not trust in oppression and do not vainly hope in robbery; If riches increase, do not set your heart upon them.

Proverbs 11:28 He who trusts in his riches will fall, But the righteous will flourish like the green leaf.

Proverbs 13:7-8 One pretends to be rich, but has nothing; another pretends to be poor, yet has great wealth. Riches may ransom a man’s life, but a poor man hears no threat.

Proverbs 13:11 Dishonest wealth will dwindle, but what is earned through hard work will be multiplied.

Proverbs 15:6 Great wealth is in the house of the righteous, but trouble is in the income of the wicked.

Proverbs 18:11 A rich man’s wealth is his strong city, And like a high wall in his own imagination.

Proverbs 18:23 The poor man pleads for mercy, but the rich man answers harshly.

Proverbs 22:16 He who oppresses the poor to make more for himself or who gives to the rich, will only come to poverty.

Proverbs 23:4-5 Do not wear yourself out to get rich; be wise enough to restrain yourself. When you glance at wealth, it disappears, for it makes wings for itself and flies like an eagle to the sky.

Proverbs 28:11 The rich man is wise in his own eyes, But the poor who has understanding sees through him.

Proverbs 28:20 A faithful person will be richly blessed, but one eager to get rich will not go unpunished.

Proverbs 30:8-9 Keep deception and lies far from me, give me neither poverty nor riches; Feed me with the food that is my portion, That I not be full and deny You and say, "Who is the LORD?" Or that I not be in want and steal and profane the name of my God.

Ecclesiastes_5:10–13 He who loves money is never satisfied by money, and he who loves wealth is never satisfied by income. This too is futile. When good things increase, so do those who consume them; what then is the profit to the owner, except to behold them with his eyes? The sleep of the worker is sweet, whether he eats little or much, but the abundance of the rich man permits him no sleep. There is a grievous evil I have seen under the sun: wealth hoarded to the harm of its owner

Isaiah 1:23 Your rulers are rebels and companions of thieves; Everyone loves a bribe And chases after rewards. They do not defend the orphan, nor does the widow's plea come before them.

Jeremiah 22:13 Woe to him who builds his house without righteousness And his upper rooms without justice, Who uses his neighbor's services without pay And does not give him his wages,

Jeremiah 49:4 How boastful you are about the valleys! Your valley is flowing away, O backsliding daughter who trusts in her treasures, saying, 'Who will come against me?'

Ezekiel 28:5 By your great wisdom, by your trade You have increased your riches and your heart is lifted up because of your riches

Hosea 13:6 As they had their pasture, they became satisfied, and being satisfied, their heart became proud; Therefore they forgot Me.

Micah 6:12 For the rich men of the city are full of violence, her residents speak lies, And their tongue is deceitful in their mouth.

Haggai 1:3-5 Then the word of the LORD came by Haggai the prophet, saying, "Is it time for you yourselves to dwell in your paneled houses while this house lies desolate?" Now therefore, thus says the LORD of hosts, "Consider your ways!

Malachi 3:5 Then I will draw near to you for judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers and against the adulterers and against those who swear falsely, and against those who oppress the wage earner in his wages, the widow and the orphan, and those who turn aside the alien and do not fear Me," says the LORD of hosts.
 
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Ricky M

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From the NT:

Matthew 4:9-10 and he said to Him, "All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me." Then Jesus said to him, "Go, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only’”.

Matthew 6:24 No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.

Matthew 13:22 And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.

Matthew 19:21-22Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.

Mark 4:19 but the worries of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.

Mark 10:21-22 Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, "One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." But at these words he was saddened, and he went away grieving, for he was one who owned much property.

Luke 6:20 “Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. 21 Blessed are you who hunger now, for you will be satisfied. Blessed are you who weep now, for you will laugh. 22 Blessed are you when people hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man. 23 “Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their ancestors treated the prophets. 24 “But woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort. 25 Woe to you who are well fed now, for you will go hungry. Woe to you who laugh now, for you will mourn and weep. 26 Woe to you when everyone speaks well of you, for that is how their ancestors treated the false prophets.

Luke 8:14 The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.

Luke 12:13-21 13 Someone in the crowd said to him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me.”14 Jesus replied, “Man, who appointed me a judge or an arbiter between you?” 15 Then he said to them, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; life does not consist in an abundance of possessions.” 16 And he told them this parable: “The ground of a certain rich man yielded an abundant harvest. 17 He thought to himself, ‘What shall I do? I have no place to store my crops.’ 18 “Then he said, ‘This is what I’ll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store my surplus grain. 19 And I’ll say to myself, “You have plenty of grain laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry.”’ 20 “But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?’ 21 “This is how it will be with whoever stores up things for themselves but is not rich toward God.”

Luke 14: 12Then Jesus said to the man who had invited Him, “When you host a dinner or a banquet, do not invite your friends or brothers or relatives or rich neighbors. Otherwise, they may invite you in return, and you will be repaid.13But when you host a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, and the blind, 14and you will be blessed. Since they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”15When one of those reclining with Him heard this, he said to Jesus, “Blessed is everyone who will eat at the feast in the kingdom of God.” 16But Jesus replied, “A certain man prepared a great banquet and invited many guests. 17When it was time for the banquet, he sent his servant to tell those who had been invited, ‘Come, for everything is now ready.’ 18But one after another they all began to make excuses. The first one said, ‘I have bought a field and I need to go see it. Please excuse me.’ 19Another said, ‘I have bought five yoke of oxen and I am going to try them out. Please excuse me.’ 20Still another said, ‘I have married a wife, so I cannot come.’ 21The servant returned and reported all this to his master. Then the owner of the house became angry and said to his servant, ‘Go out quickly into the streets and alleys of the city, and bring in the poor, the crippled, the blind, and the lame.’ 22‘Sir,’ the servant replied, ‘what you ordered has been done, and there is still room.’ 23So the master told his servant, ‘Go out to the highways and hedges and compel them to come in, so that my house will be full. 24For I tell you, not one of those men who were invited will taste my banquet.’”

Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth

Luke 16:19-21 Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores … 25 But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony

Luke 18:22-23 When Jesus heard this, He said to him, "One thing you still lack; sell all that you possess and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." But when he had heard these things, he became very sad, for he was extremely rich.

Luke 21:1 As Jesus looked up, he saw the rich putting their gifts into the temple treasury. 2 He also saw a poor widow put in two very small copper coins. 3 “Truly I tell you,” he said, “this poor widow has put in more than all the others. 4 All these people gave their gifts out of their wealth; but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on.”

Hebrews 13:5 Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, for God has said: “Never will I leave you, never will I forsake you.”

1 Timothy 3:3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.

1 Timothy 6:8-9 If we have food and covering, with these we shall be content. But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction.

1 Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

1 Timothy 6:17 Instruct those who are rich in this present world not to be conceited or to fix their hope on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly supplies us with all things to enjoy.

James 1:9The brother in humble circumstances should exult in his high position. 10But the one who is rich should exult in his low position, because he will pass away like a flower of the field. 11For the sun rises with scorching heat and withers the plant; its flower falls and its beauty is lost. So too, the rich man will fade away in the midst of his pursuits.

James 2:6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you and personally drag you into court?

Rev 3:17 Because thou say, I am rich, and have gotten riches, and have need of nothing; and know not that thou art the wretched one and miserable and poor and blind and naked:

Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold refined by fire, that thou mayest become rich; and white garments, that thou mayest clothe thyself, and that the shame of thy nakedness be not made manifest; and eye salve to anoint thine eyes, that thou mayest see.

James 5:1 Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming on you. 2 Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. 3 Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. 4 Look! The wages you failed to pay the workers who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. 5 You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter. 6 You have condemned and murdered the innocent one, who was not opposing you.
 
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Albion

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That works really well. Trump would rather rail against the homeless in LA than provide a nickle to help buy some soup.
"Rail against?" He is about the only one who has stepped up to try to do something to solve this problem and help those homeless people. The LA city fathers won't, and the governor won't. Apparently neither does the legislature have any intention of bringing about any changes for the better.
 
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GoldenBoy89

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"Rail against?" He is about the only one who has stepped up to try to do something to solve this problem and help those homeless people.
Oh?

What solutions has he offered to help with homelessness in LA? He was here not too long ago raising money with his rich supporters in Beverly Hills.

How much of that went towards helping the homeless around here?
 
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