Can you lose your salvation

createdtoworship

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1) You need to understand that I am NOT a Calvinist.
2) However, I believe in using historical documents to show that particular beliefs existed long before many assert their origins.

The case in reference here is, the eternal security of the believer - OSAS - as being in existence long before the days of Calvin.

Here is an article presented by a Calvinist that shows the existence of the OSAS doctrine PRIOR to Calvin.

Why Do We And St. Augustine Believe “Once Saved Always Saved”?

So much for you last post ... Refuted.
historical documents on christian believe is just theology. Theology is not God's direct word. Theology is simply mans take on God's word. It's best to just stick with the word of God.
 
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what does proving a literal creation have to do with salvation doctrines? Your all over the place.

let me repost a previous post, if you are done with this debate, I want the readers to have the section that contradicts your view fresh in their memory:


here is where I refute your view that blasphemy of the holy spirit is basically cursing out the holy spirit, and not refusing the spirits work of the Gospel message.

a lack of faith in Christ is an unforgivable sin. Yet is says in Mark 3:28 and Math 12:23 that "all sin will be forgiven." So if all sin, even lack of faith in Christ are forgiven, then everyone would be saved, which is universalism. The only other interpretation is that it's talking about sins other than lack of faith, because most don't view lack of faith as a sin. But in many places in the Bible lack of faith is considered a sin. Romans 14:23. So again your view contradicts. So in order not to contradict, one must also view blasphemy of the Holy Spirit as lack of faith in Christ, in addition to actual blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. This will do two things this will make the verse practical, as in, there are examples of it being done. And secondly, it will allow the scripture not to contradict other scripture.

Again, the context is clear for anyone who is willing to see it.

"And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him," (Matthew 12:32).​

Speaking a word against the Son of man is like when people curse the name of Jesus with actual real words. Hence, why it says speaks a word against the Son of Man.

This is contrasted with speaking against the Holy Ghost.

Even on the most basic English reading level, we know that if we speak a word against someone, we are speaking bad words against that person. That is what it is saying.
 
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createdtoworship

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Again, the context is clear for anyone who is willing to see it.

"And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him," (Matthew 12:32).​

Speaking a word against the Son of man is like when people curse the name of Jesus with actual real words. Hence, why it says speaks a word against the Son of Man.

This is contrasted with speaking against the Holy Ghost.

Even on the most basic English reading level, we know that if we speak a word against someone, we are speaking bad words against that person. That is what it is saying.
you obviously haven't read the church fathers, they were anything but OSAS, Augustine and origin were liberal scholars, and had a host of off of the cuff beliefs. But anyway, I have mainly ended debate with you on this topic and most other topics, because you are part of a Christian cult (you believe we are saved by works). I don't think we should encourage your view here, so for now you are blocked, and I will not be addressing your posts on CF any longer. (to see more of my refutations of this posters views, see this thread, this is also where he says we are saved by works)

Is salvation by grace alone? Or faith alone? Or grace through faith? or by faith plus repentance?

I do not recommend anyone dialogue with this user, He does not have a home church, and he has his own recipe for salvation, one very similiar to Jehovah's witness or mormon. I think he uses this forum to recruit and to gain a following, but I am not for sure positive. Just beware. If he dialogues with you and you need some help, message me. I would love to assist anyone dialoging with this person. But recommend complete withdrawl, as if this view is tolerated, more christian cults will show up here.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I disagree with almost everything you say.
You said "Now we can choose to live eternally in hell or heaven. But we can change our mind"....Where is that in the Bible?

Where does the Bible say "God allows us to choose to become saved,"

“and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house. And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household. And he brought them into his house and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, having believed in God with his whole household.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭16:30-34‬ ‭NASB‬‬
 
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you obviously haven't read the church fathers, they were anything but OSAS, Augustine and origin were liberal scholars, and had a host of off of the cuff beliefs.

Man made historical documents is really not my thing. We really do not know if men are lying about those records or not. What we can trust is the Bible. The Bible talks about the condemnation of the belief that teaches that we can commit grievous willful sin and still be saved in several places (See: Jude 1:4, 2 Timothy 3:1-9, 1 John 1:8, 1 John 2:4). You yourself have said that the new Christian (who is carnal) is saved in post #314. If you believe a Christian can sin and still be saved while as a new believer, then clearly this means that a seasoned believer can do the same thing sometimes, too.

You said:
But anyway, I have mainly ended debate with you on this topic and most other topics, because you are part of a Christian cult (you believe we are saved by works). ...and he has his own recipe for salvation, one very similiar to Jehovah's witness or mormon.

Guilt by association is not always true. The Catholics believe in the Trinity, but that does not mean I am Catholic and neither does it mean I think Catholicism is biblical. Neither does it mean I am in approval of Catholicism, either. Also, as I said before, even a blind squirrel can find a nut. Sometimes false roads of salvation (like the JW religion, and Mormonism) can have slivers of truth within them, even though they are clearly not correct or true as a whole.

Many Christian books say the same thing you are saying in that doing any kind of work for salvation (after one is saved by God's grace) equates with being a Christian cult. But truth is not determined by a majority vote of Christian thinking or what is published in Christian books. Truth is determined by God's Word.

The Bible clearly teaches both Justification for salvation (God's grace through faith in Christ, believing in His death and resurrection on our behalf, and in seeking forgiveness of one's sins with Him - Ephesians 2:8-9, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Romans 10:13), and Sanctification for salvation (Holy living and doing good works via by GOD doing the good work through the believer; See: 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 8:13, 1 John 1:7, Hebrews 5:9, Matthew 7:21 cf with 1 Thessalonians 4:3).

This is not my own recipe for salvation (as you claim), but it is something anyone can read for themselves within the Bible.

I don't think we should encourage your view here, so for now you are blocked, and I will not be addressing your posts on CF any longer. (to see more of my refutations of this posters views, see this thread, this is also where he says we are saved by works)

Is salvation by grace alone? Or faith alone? Or grace through faith? or by faith plus repentance?

However, you really did not refute any of my points with Scripture, though. You just ended the discussion. There are many verses that went unanswered by you, friend. I gave a list of verses showing how Sanctification plays a part in the salvation process. You replied back, but you did not explain verse by verse what they actually said. In reply, I gave a commentary to the verses in what they said to show how Sanctification plays a part in the salvation process, but you did not reply back to these posts. There were other verses I brought forth even prior before this whereby you did not give an adequate explanation in light of what the text plainly says. Well, folks here do not have to take my word for it. They will be able to read the thread for themselves and see the truth (if they are interested in seeing such a thing).

You said:
I do not recommend anyone dialogue with this user, He does not have a home church,

How do you know I don't have a home church?
Do you know my life?
If you are referring to traditional church:
There are Trinitarian Sola Scriptura churches that believe as I do.
Christ's Sanctified Holy Church believes the same way as me in regards to Soteriology.
Besides, believers gathered in each other's homes in the early church days.
There were no official church organizations like today.
Also, just because a person attends church on Sundays does not mean their heart is right with the Lord and they are doing his will. Church is wherever the body of believers is gathered together and it does not have to be on a Sunday.

You said:
I think he uses this forum to recruit and to gain a following, but I am not for sure positive.

I have not recruited anyone on the forums.
I am not expecting many to follow what I say with Scripture because Jesus said narrow is the way. I also believe we are in the last days and many have a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.

You said:
Just beware. If he dialogues with you and you need some help, message me. I would love to assist anyone dialoging with this person. But recommend complete withdrawl, as if this view is tolerated, more christian cults will show up here.

Truth should not be hidden behind closed doors via by private messages. Truth should be able to stand up to scrutiny in the public eye for all to see and to discuss openly. I believe it is the cults that try to hide things in secret. But you are free to believe as you wish. The problem I have with Belief Alone-ism or Eternal Security is that it leads to making light of sin, and that a person can live however they like as long as they have a belief on Jesus. While OSAS proponents or Belief Alone Adherents may say otherwise and they also teach that a born again person will live a holy life, I also hear these same folk turn around at a later time and say that the believer can sin and still be saved, too. It is an inconsistent belief in my view or opinion. It is also not in line with what I believe the Scriptures plainly say, either. But do not take my word for it. Check the verses for yourself within my post here. Slowly read through those verses and pray about them.

In any event, I am wishing you nothing but good things to you in Christ Jesus (even if we strongly disagree on the topic of Soteriology).

With loving kindness to you in Christ,

Sincerely,

~ J.
 
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you obviously haven't read the church fathers, they were anything but OSAS, Augustine and origin were liberal scholars, and had a host of off of the cuff beliefs. But anyway, I have mainly ended debate with you on this topic and most other topics, because you are part of a Christian cult (you believe we are saved by works). I don't think we should encourage your view here, so for now you are blocked, and I will not be addressing your posts on CF any longer. (to see more of my refutations of this posters views, see this thread, this is also where he says we are saved by works)

Is salvation by grace alone? Or faith alone? Or grace through faith? or by faith plus repentance?

I do not recommend anyone dialogue with this user, He does not have a home church, and he has his own recipe for salvation, one very similiar to Jehovah's witness or mormon. I think he uses this forum to recruit and to gain a following, but I am not for sure positive. Just beware. If he dialogues with you and you need some help, message me. I would love to assist anyone dialoging with this person. But recommend complete withdrawl, as if this view is tolerated, more christian cults will show up here.

You are also replying to my post on Matthew 12:32. Notice how you did not actually give a reply to what I said with the Scriptures on this verse. I even highlighted the words within the verse to show you that your belief here on the blasphemy of the Spirit is not biblical. But you did not give an adequate explanation in return to defend against my point, friend.

Anyways, may God bless you (even if we disagree).
 
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BNR32FAN

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you obviously haven't read the church fathers, they were anything but OSAS, Augustine and origin were liberal scholars, and had a host of off of the cuff beliefs. But anyway, I have mainly ended debate with you on this topic and most other topics, because you are part of a Christian cult (you believe we are saved by works). I don't think we should encourage your view here, so for now you are blocked, and I will not be addressing your posts on CF any longer. (to see more of my refutations of this posters views, see this thread, this is also where he says we are saved by works)

Is salvation by grace alone? Or faith alone? Or grace through faith? or by faith plus repentance?

I do not recommend anyone dialogue with this user, He does not have a home church, and he has his own recipe for salvation, one very similiar to Jehovah's witness or mormon. I think he uses this forum to recruit and to gain a following, but I am not for sure positive. Just beware. If he dialogues with you and you need some help, message me. I would love to assist anyone dialoging with this person. But recommend complete withdrawl, as if this view is tolerated, more christian cults will show up here.

He should’ve mentioned John 15:1-10, Matthew 25:31-46, and James 2:14-26 as well. All these scriptures support what he is saying and I support him as well. I know you disagree with him but honestly you should re-examine your post and the manner of your reply compared to his. I believe you owe him an apology. He didn’t deserve such a spiteful response friend. We’re all here to serve The Lord the best we can. We may not always agree but we can at least remain civil towards one another in our discussions and refrain from wild accusations and disrespectful remarks. I’m sure it’s safe to say that we all love Christ here and we are all brothers & sisters in Him. God bless.
 
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Butch5

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Eternal life is eternal life.
Everlasting means everlasting.

It's either everlasting OR God is lieing. Which one do you want? We know God cannot lie. How many times does the bible have to say that salvation is by grace..GRACE...through FAITH. It even gives an example of how Abraham was saved...not by works, but by faith.

If you have to forfeit, that means it's works based!

Man is made in the image of God: flesh, spirit and soul. Each of us have spirit. When we believe on Jesus, our spirit is reborn and the spirit cannot sin. The flesh is NOT reborn and continues to sin. That is why the bible says to walk in the spirit and not in the flesh...it's a constant battle.

When Jesus comes the second time, he will give us new bodies that are incorruptible.

The sins you do in this life time are punished by God on earth but you will never go to hell.
Or the translation you're reading is incorrect.
 
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createdtoworship

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He should’ve mentioned John 15:1-10, Matthew 25:31-46, and James 2:14-26 as well. All these scriptures support what he is saying and I support him as well. I know you disagree with him but honestly you should re-examine your post and the manner of your reply compared to his. I believe you owe him an apology. He didn’t deserve such a spiteful response friend. We’re all here to serve The Lord the best we can. We may not always agree but we can at least remain civil towards one another in our discussions and refrain from wild accusations and disrespectful remarks. I’m sure it’s safe to say that we all love Christ here and we are all brothers & sisters in Him. God bless.
I am sorry I didn't specify, however this particular poster is posting works salvation in another thread, works salvation is a christian heresy and is not allowed on these threads. I am sorry if you missunderstood. One can believe in apostacy or believe in osas, and be saved, that is is a minor theological issue. This whole thread is peripheral issues. However if someone is mentioning that we are saved by works, and not just grace through faith. then that is not allowed here. I hope that makes sense. Legalism and pharisaism is the only thing in the new testament that made Christ actually angry. Hosts of other sins never made Christ angry, alcoholism, prostitution, homosexuality.....but legalism made Him upset, that is because they shut off the kingdom of heaven and discourage people from being saved. Matthew 23:13. Anyway, I won't be posting here any more, I am not into doing debates, I created this thread when I was debating, and don't actually agree with the principle of debate anymore. I believe we should unite in faith, christians have many views, some are democrats, some are conservative, some are pro life, others are prochoice, some are premillenial, others are post. There are simply too many variables to fight about it online with strangers. It's best to unite, and love on each other. However works salvation is simply not something that we can question. It's the same gospel that mormons and jehovah's witnesses have. Anyway, if you wish to message me I would love that, we can talk more. But I won't be monitoring this debate or any other debate for that matter, and will be in christian advice probably. I feel that that is an honorable place for christians to be. Fighting and bickering about theology, is not really Christ like. I just learned this in the last few months, and more so in the last week, so be patient with me as I try to be more Christ like. Christian debates is bad for believers in general because the debates tend to focus on trivial, divisive issues. If you take any divisive, or controversial issue and make it your main focus, you harbor doubt and a host of other issues. It's best to simply talk about and unite over Christ. I know this type of talk is not what many want on CF, and that is ok. But it is something we should strive for.

thanks
 
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I am sorry I didn't specify, however this particular poster is posting works salvation in another thread,

Well, actually that is not true. I actually I do not believe in Works Alone Salvationism (Which is what the phrase "Works salvation" implies). I believe the 1st work of God is that we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Christ (Which includes accepting Jesus as one's Savior, believing in his death and resurrection on one's behalf, and in seeking forgiveness of one's sins with Him) (a.k.a. The Justification Process). After we are saved by God's grace, I believe the 2nd work of God is the working of all three persons of the Trinity within the life of the believer to make them live holy and to do good works (a.k.a. The Sanctification Process). Both processes of salvation involve GOD doing the good work, and the believer merely cooperates with the good work the Lord wants to do through our lives. So all boasting, praise, and glorying goes to the LORD and not to ourselves or men.

You said:
works salvation is a christian heresy and is not allowed on these threads.

That is not true. Please read the statement of purpose of this section of the forums again, and the statement of faith for this website. Nothing is said about how one is not allowed to post in the Christian Only section of the forums if they believe that one is saved by both God's grace through faith + Sanctification (Holy living and or works of faith). I have debate on these forums for a long time, and I have even argued my position with moderators present. I was not banned from the Christian forums section as a result of my view of Soteriology (of which I believe the Bible teaches).

You said:
However if someone is mentioning that we are saved by works, and not just grace through faith. then that is not allowed here.

But I never said we are not saved by God's grace through faith. That is your false assertion that is simply not true. I have even created multiple threads stating that we are saved by "God's grace through faith + Sanctification" many times. So you cannot change the record of what people know about what I stated in regards to my view of Soteriology.

You said:
I hope that makes sense. Legalism and pharisaism is the only thing in the new testament that made Christ actually angry.

The word "legalism" has a wide variety of meanings and definitions by many and nobody truly all agrees on it's definition. So what do you mean by Legalism? Please quote the chapter and verse that says that Christ was angry at what you define as Legalism. Yes, it is true, that Jesus was against man made traditions or laws, but Jesus was never against adhering to God's laws or commandments. Jesus said that the problem with the Pharisees is that they ignored the weightier matters of the Law, like love, faith, justice, and mercy (See: Matthew 23:23, and Luke 11:42). Jesus said if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (like do not murder, do not covet, honor your father and mother, and love your neighbor) (See: Matthew 19:17-19). Jesus agreed with the lawyer on the truth that loving God, and loving your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life. Jesus told the lawyer to "Do this, and you will live." (See: Luke 10:25-28).

Even after the cross: Paul taught that loving GOD plays a part in our salvation when He said in 1 Corinthians 16:22, that if any man loves not the Lord Jesus Christ (Who is GOD) let them be accursed. In 1 John 3:10, the apostle John says that the person who does not righteousness or does not love their brother is not of GOD. He says this is how we can tell the person of GOD vs. one who is of the devil. For John says that whoever hates his brother is a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (1 John 3:15). One's brother is their neighbor. So loving one's neighbor is a part of eternal life.

Please understand again, that nobody can obey GOD or His commands without first being saved by God's grace through faith. A believer cannot also get clean again without God's grace, as well. For if a believer sins, do they do a good work to be saved again or to be cleansed? No. They go to God's grace by confessing their sins to Jesus (1 John 2:1). For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).

You said:
Hosts of other sins never made Christ angry, alcoholism, prostitution, homosexuality.....but legalism made Him upset, that is because they shut off the kingdom of heaven and discourage people from being saved. Matthew 23:13.

Matthew 23:1-13 is about the Pharisees seeking to look good in front of others by what they do and it is about their own hypocrisy. In verse 13, Jesus calls them hypocrites. So the focus here is hypocrisy and not a strict over adherence to law over God's grace if that is how you define Legalism. While we cannot be saved without first receiving God's grace through faith in Christ, if Jesus was against the strict adherence of Law, then why did He teach that we have to keep the commandments to enter into life? (See: Matthew 19:17-19). Why did Jesus agree with the lawyer on the truth that we are to love GOD, and to love our neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life? (See: Luke 10:25-28).

One place I see in the Bible where Legalism or an overemphasis of Law over grace is improperly applied is in the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee (Luke 18:9-14). The problem was that the Pharisee was not seeking forgiveness of his sins with God like the tax collector was doing. The Pharisee did not allow for the Tax Collector to experience God's grace because he himself did not have grace in the fact that he did not cry out to GOD for the forgiveness of his sins. For the Pharisee, it was all law and no grace. He truly believed in Law Alone Salvationism (and no grace).

You said:
Anyway, I won't be posting here any more, I am not into doing debates, I created this thread when I was debating, and don't actually agree with the principle of debate anymore.

It is written:

"Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him." (Acts of the Apostles 17:17).

"He refuted the Jews with powerful arguments in public debate. Using the Scriptures, he explained to them that Jesus was the Messiah." (Acts of the Apostles 18:28) (NLT).

"Saul’s preaching became more and more powerful, and the Jews in Damascus couldn’t refute his proofs that Jesus was indeed the Messiah." (Acts of the Apostles 9:22) (NLT).

You said:
I believe we should unite in faith, christians have many views, some are democrats, some are conservative, some are pro life, others are prochoice, some are premillenial, others are post. There are simply too many variables to fight about it online with strangers. It's best to unite, and love on each other.

"Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." (Jude 1:3).

You said:
However works salvation is simply not something that we can question. It's the same gospel that mormons and jehovah's witnesses have.

As I said to you before, a blind squirrel can find a nut. Usually a false road to salvation will have some sliver of truth to it so as to make it believable in some way. But guilt by association is not always true. I believe in the Trinity, but just because Catholics agree with the Trinity does not mean the Trinity is not true. Yes, we both do not agree with Catholicism, but that does not mean that the Trinity is not true just because we disagree with certain things they do or teach.

You said:
Anyway, if you wish to message me I would love that, we can talk more. But I won't be monitoring this debate or any other debate for that matter, and will be in christian advice probably. I feel that that is an honorable place for christians to be. Fighting and bickering about theology, is not really Christ like. I just learned this in the last few months, and more so in the last week, so be patient with me as I try to be more Christ like. Christian debates is bad for believers in general because the debates tend to focus on trivial, divisive issues. If you take any divisive, or controversial issue and make it your main focus, you harbor doubt and a host of other issues. It's best to simply talk about and unite over Christ. I know this type of talk is not what many want on CF, and that is ok. But it is something we should strive for.

Discussing the topic of salvation (According to the Bible) is definitely worth debating over in my opinion. Over the years I have learned a lot. I have learned patience, love, and diplomacy. I have learned the importance of God's good ways, as well. God is good, and His people are a reflection of Him. For God tells us: "Be ye holy; for I am holy." (1 Peter 1:16). Of course, holy living is only possible by God's grace (See: Titus 2:11-12, Ephesians 5:25-27, Romans 5:21).

In any event, I hope God's love and peace be upon you in a strong way today.

With loving kindness to you in Christ (even if we disagree),

Sincerely,

~ J.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I am sorry I didn't specify, however this particular poster is posting works salvation in another thread, works salvation is a christian heresy and is not allowed on these threads. I am sorry if you missunderstood. One can believe in apostacy or believe in osas, and be saved, that is is a minor theological issue. This whole thread is peripheral issues. However if someone is mentioning that we are saved by works, and not just grace through faith. then that is not allowed here. I hope that makes sense. Legalism and pharisaism is the only thing in the new testament that made Christ actually angry. Hosts of other sins never made Christ angry, alcoholism, prostitution, homosexuality.....but legalism made Him upset, that is because they shut off the kingdom of heaven and discourage people from being saved. Matthew 23:13. Anyway, I won't be posting here any more, I am not into doing debates, I created this thread when I was debating, and don't actually agree with the principle of debate anymore. I believe we should unite in faith, christians have many views, some are democrats, some are conservative, some are pro life, others are prochoice, some are premillenial, others are post. There are simply too many variables to fight about it online with strangers. It's best to unite, and love on each other. However works salvation is simply not something that we can question. It's the same gospel that mormons and jehovah's witnesses have. Anyway, if you wish to message me I would love that, we can talk more. But I won't be monitoring this debate or any other debate for that matter, and will be in christian advice probably. I feel that that is an honorable place for christians to be. Fighting and bickering about theology, is not really Christ like. I just learned this in the last few months, and more so in the last week, so be patient with me as I try to be more Christ like. Christian debates is bad for believers in general because the debates tend to focus on trivial, divisive issues. If you take any divisive, or controversial issue and make it your main focus, you harbor doubt and a host of other issues. It's best to simply talk about and unite over Christ. I know this type of talk is not what many want on CF, and that is ok. But it is something we should strive for.

thanks

I don’t see him teachings works based salvation I see him teaching that God has expectations of His children. Christ did get very angry about other sins. You mentioned drunkenness prostitution and homosexuality but these passages strictly forbid this type of behavior and specifically say that such people will not enter heaven.

“Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭6:9-10‬ ‭NASB‬‬

When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:19-21

Let there be no sexual immorality, impurity, or greed among you. Such sins have no place among God’s people. Obscene stories, foolish talk, and coarse jokes—these are not for you. Instead, let there be thankfulness to God. You can be sure that no immoral, impure, or greedy person will inherit the Kingdom of Christ and of God. For a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world. Don’t be fooled by those who try to excuse these sins, for the anger of God will fall on all who disobey him.

Ephesians 5:3-6

Obeying God’s commandments is not legalism. Legalism is seeking to be justified (made right with God) by works or obedience. Works cannot pay for sins, only Christ can atone for our sins which is attained by grace thru having faith. Once a person has been justified (made right with God) by faith that doesn’t mean the person cannot be made wrong with God afterwards. John 15:2 Jesus said The Father cuts off every branch in Me that doesn’t bear fruit. John 15:6 He says anyone who doesn’t abide in Me is cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned. Both of these are referring to believers. Romans 11:17-23 Paul says those who have been grafted into the olive tree (God’s covenant) can be broken off for being conceited or unbelief and can also be grafted back in if they repent. God has two main expectations of His children which are necessary for receiving salvation. Love God with all your heart soul and mind and love others as Jesus loves us. Jesus’ BIGGEST emphasis was always love. Love inspires us to do what pleases God. Look at the reason Jesus gave for condemning the goats in Matthew 25:41-46.

“"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:41-46‬ ‭NASB‬‬

What do all these examples in His explanation have in common? The goats did not have love for others. James 2:14-16 gives a similar example. Faith without love is not a saving faith. Paul had this to say about faith without love.

“If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13:1-3‬ ‭NASB‬‬
 
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sdowney717

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Here is another good verse about our eternal salvation.
Christ is our eternal high priest.
Since he saves us to the utmost, and he has this unchangeable priesthood in that he ever lives to make intercession for us, then our salvation is certain. Christ is entirely different than any another other priest. Through His intercession we draw near to God.

Hebrews 7
17 For He testifies:

“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”

18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, 19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

Greatness of the New Priest
20 And inasmuch as He was not made priest without an oath 21 (for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him who said to Him:

“The Lord has sworn
And will not relent,
‘You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek’ ”),

22 by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant.

23 Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing. 24 But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.
 
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sdowney717

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The Lord Jesus prayed for Peter that he would be turned back to Christ, and he did. The intercession of Christ is what makes our salvation certain. Christ does not pray for any except for those whom the Father gives to Him. And notice Christ did not pray for Judas.

Jesus said this here
John 17
9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.
 
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nolidad

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I wanted to change the first few paragraphs of this thread for the confustion that resulted from what I said below: first let me say this about salvation, we are all eternally secure. Now let me talk about the rest of this:

Apostacy can happen but it is not a performance issue. It's not sin or anything else that can remove salvation. But sin can deceive us into forfeiting our own secure fortress of salvation. That is why some verses seem to talk about security and others seem to say that God tosses those who bear no fruit in the fire. Both are true! It's a balance. This is probably the hardest topic in christianity to understand, and most seminaries have it wrong. Most either error on the side of OSAS or error on the side that sin can cause you to lose salvation. Neither are true. Jesus paid for our sin on the cross, sin is no longer an issue for our salvation. But sin can deceive us, not God. God's end of the issue is done and settled, but our faith can be changed due to wanting to justify our sin. For example if I love having sex with a girl that is not my wife, I may want to justify that sin in my mind, then eventually I start to loathe all those who say it's wrong, including Jesus. Eventually that bitterness grows into doubt. A little leaven, leavens the whole loaf. And I have shipwrecked my faith. God always was willing to save me, but I decided not to endorse the check personally speaking. My name was not cancelled out of the Book of life, because I believe that happens at the end of our lives. One was still genuinely saved, but now they no longer believe Jesus was God's son or savior. God will not grant salvation any longer to such a person. As in the curse of balaam, God's people have cursed themselves. See Balaam could not curse God's people externally, but He tempted them in a separate way, to lead them into adultery with mideanite women. They tried to curse God's people three times from the outside, it was impossible. And only resulted in blessing them. However He was able to lead them into forfeiting the blessing themselves. I think that is a perfect example of apostacy. However in the case of salvation, no sin will cause salvation to be lost, accept one. The blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. It is when I believe in Jesus or I don't either one, but I am not willing to trust Him with my salvation, and His gift of Grace. I once believed but due to the deception of sin, I have loved the world more than God, and eventually my seed of faith was dried up in the sun of tribulation, or my faith grew quickly in shallow soil, and I was not planted in a local church quickly enough and into fertile soil, my plant dies from malnutrition and my faith withers. Lots of things can cause a lack of faith. Now realize that doubting the Bible and God and Jesus is normal. I had various doubts the first ten years of Christianity, maybe even the first 15 years. Sometimes I doubted JEsus existence, or the supernatural aspect of the Bible. But because I was planted in a local church, those doubts went away naturally in time, as I prayed and studied. Some people don't have that church to help them, and they wither in their faith. Sometimes becoming twice the son of hell than before they were saved. I talk to athiests every day that once believed, and no longer do. Now they get full excitement in ship wrecking others faiths. They have become worse in the end, than they were in the beginning. So it's important to nurtture new saplings in the faith. Make sure they know they are loved by God and nothing they can do can separate them from His love. However we can shipwreck ourselves. But I don't mention this to new believers as it is the meat of scripture and something that they won't get, and may confuse them on grace and security. See we are eternally secure forever, nothing can separate us from God's love. We are elect before the foundation of the world. We are secure. But even in the most secure foundations, they are not locked from the inside. the white house is locked from the outside, no one can come in. But you can walk out if you choose.

------------

I don't think you can lose your salvation I believe anyone who wants to be saved, will ultimately have the grace to be saved. But it is the person that thinks "I can sin all I want because I am saved by grace." There is a stern warning for that person. I don't believe you can lose salvation, I believe you can forfeit it. I believe in eternal security for me personally because I desire to love and live for God. He will never allow a sheep that God has given him to perish. But for the apostate, that same assurance is not there.

I told this to an athiest earlier this week, I got no reply back. He knew it was a true case of why He doesn't believe in God. He forfeited his salvation. Let me post the same post so you can hear it:

At first I thought you were open to the truth regarding this, but you are not. I personally think you rejected God because you fell into sin, and you wanted to justify it, so your sin decieved you and you lost your faith. I know that sounds horrible and confusing, but let me post it in length what happened exactly during your apostacy, and what needs to happen to reverse it.

You didn't get into God's family because of your performance, and you won't get kicked out because of your performance. God chose to love you because of who He is, not because of who you are or what you did, so He's not going to stop loving you. But at the same time if we sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for our sins, it says in hebrews. Hebrews six mentions leaving the faith. The best way I can reconcile it is when we sin the same sin, and we become addicted to it, and it gains a foothold in our lives, we become embarrassed of it. Then we start to legitimize it to remove the shame. Then eventually we become proud of it. After many years. Then we no longer need Jesus because we no longer believe we are sinning. Then we shipwreck our faith all together. The end becomes worse than the beginning. We become a far greater son of hell, than even before we became a christian. This is what I believe every case of apostacy is referring to in the Bible. But it is important to believe that sin won't remove salvation from us. It can't because after salvation our sin is forgiven. It's the process of losing faith, via the deception of willful sin. Struggling with sin, and maintaining our shame and simply trying harder the next time, is a healthy thing...we mortify our body daily, beating it into submission. But it is when we give up fighting sin, that we start a love affair with our sin, and our romance with God ends. Our sin eventually causes us to lose our faith in the gospel message, to the point we don't even believe Jesus existed, or even to the point we don't believe the Bible is true any more. How can he save us from our sins, if we don't believe in Him? How can I go to a hell that I don't believe in? Well, very easily. All apostates will find that one out first hand, what needs to happen now is not a debate on apologetics, but a humble repentance. A calling out to God for help. There is no sacrifice left for the sin of the apostate, but all things are possible with God, if you hurry, God can reverse being an apostate. But you must be willing to give up that same sin that caused the apostacy. If it's an addiction, well there is grace for that. God can help you slowly recover, if you are proud of your sin and don't want to repent, well then you will never recover of apostacy.

source verses: Hebrews 6 and 10. and matthew 13 below:

It is not my desire to say that calvinists or arminianists are not saved, nor do I endorse such arrogant labeling by theologians, I think this is a controversial topic and needs to be handled with care.

I wish to share part of my testimony to show how apostacy doctrines reveal more grace than OSAS.

I believe christians should not live in sin, but in the case of addictive sin I believe grace covers and mercy is in place. For this believer who is under conviction of Holy spirit, is contrite and has shame, there is grace. They get couseling, read books on victory, and get accountability partners. To those who are proud of sin, a homosexual who attends gay pride rallies, and opened a blog homosexuals for christ. To those the bible has warnings of apostacy. See you have grace to the humble and the law to the proud. To different ends to two different people. Now Calvinistic has a problem see I was thinking today while driving that is someone has an addictive sin, a Calvinist will simply say they were never saved because they didnt adhere to the perseverance of holiness, which is a calvinist doctrine. So there is a problem of assurety here. Now someone may adopt a similar view that we have here, but that is not in calvinism classically speaking. So under calvinist one is saved because they have fruit of the spirit, and they persevere their entire life in holiness, and only at the end of their life if they persevered in holiness, can they say they were in fact elect. If they stumbled with homosexuality for a year like I did, then they were never saved. So at any point in their life if they go through a triAL and stumble, they were never saved. So there is no eternal security there. I was never pround of my homosexuality when I was in it, I was addicted to it, due to some anxiety in my life from losing a job and stress, but when my anxiety was treated and I got a good union job, as well as having counseling ND medication management, and lots of prayer, I was healed 100% of my homosexuality. I tried to repent, but every time I feared for my job the thoughts came back. It was a fear of insecurity over my male coworkers, and that fear turned into desire. Again, once my anxiety treaten and God provided a good stable job, those temptations went away 100%. What if I ran into a calvinist during that year I was gay? They would have said I did not persevere in holiness and was not saved, was never saved. That would have destroyed me. I loved Jesus so much. I was teaching evangelism for the previous three years. I think there was plenty of fruit in my life, but I had a small addictive sin. So until I could fully be free from that I was not fully filled with the spirit, but i was certainly saved. So again in conclusion it's simplistic to say catholic priests who molest children were never saved. Sometimes they need counseling, and prayer. But for sure I believe they should lose their place of authority over children, and be placed on a predator list. It's nit the children's fault that these grown men have issues. Protect the children. But I would not say they were never saved or not saved. Now if they are proud over sin, and have given up the fight long ago and are comfortable in sin, then there is law to the proud. And if they are humble and broken over it, there is grace to the humble. I hope this makes sense. This topic is very personal and powerful, the gospel was never meant to simply save us but to turn us into amazing witnesses to Gods power. Since my victory over homosexuality, God has given victory over inappropriate contentography and self gratification, and even over eating. God has turned and blessed my life abundantly in the past six years and even more so in the last year, where I started praying and reading His word regularly.

In conclusion, it's important with any theology that we realize it's not new. And the church fathers held to some of these views. I firmly believe that. Also some contemporary theologians also agree, so I will post their views: the text I want to focus on is passages in hebrews, this document is some commentaries on Hebrews 6:4 from Jon Courson through the Bible commentary and from Teckton apologetics online works:

John Courson & Tekton apologetics review Heb 6 apostacy.docx

Well I moved our discussion of soteriology here! You r exegesis of Heb. 6 and 10 are totally incorrect for you remove the teachings from their historical and linguistic context.

I am considered a hard 5 point Calvinist (vs. a 5 point Armenianist). The bible isd unambiguously clear- When a person is born again, they are saved forever!

People forget to their harm positional versus experiential truth.

Positionally we are dead and hidden, seated with Christ and already perfect! We are the children of God and keptr by the power of the Spirit.

Experientially we still struggle and strive in our growth in holiness to overcome the world, teh flesh and the devil.

But I pose this question again: Do you believe that one who is born again, sealed by the spirit and already translated into the kingdom of God can become un-born again? And if so , can they become born again-again?
 
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nolidad

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They have no root. They were not in Christ. They were never saved.

I am always amazed that people can believe one can lose their salvation by sinning! They are saying tht the blood of Jesus did not pay for all their sins. Why do they have to make up things when the Bible makes it very clear about those who "fall" away frmom the faith:

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Matthew 13:24-30 King James Version (KJV)
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

People who "walk away" from what looked like the faith- were never part of the body. The tares look just like wheat until it nears the time of harvest- then the farmer knows what is wheat and what is weed.
 
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Halbhh

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I am always amazed that people can believe one can lose their salvation by sinning! They are saying tht the blood of Jesus did not pay for all their sins. Why do they have to make up things when the Bible makes it very clear about those who "fall" away frmom the faith:

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Matthew 13:24-30 King James Version (KJV)
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

People who "walk away" from what looked like the faith- were never part of the body. The tares look just like wheat until it nears the time of harvest- then the farmer knows what is wheat and what is weed.
This isn't quite the issue -- it's not that sinning is a permanent separation: we learn just the opposite in Luke chapter 15, and 1rst John chapter 1 and 2. That's not the real question people tend to be talking about. It's different: it's whether or not the prodigal in Luke ch 15 chooses to repent. Whether the individual in 1rst John chapter 1 admits/confesses that he/she has again done a wrong.

Does one admit that?

Or refuse to admit it?

That's one key thing. And...as you can see, if it's a choice then that's "free will".

An alternative view (I think wrong) is the idea our choices are already predetermined -- that they aren't real choices in an ultimate way, but only appear as if choices; in other words that 'free will' is just illusion. But I think that idea that it's all predetermined, so that we are like rigidly programmed robots, fully predictable, is incorrect, since it seems to make most of scripture just decoration, and all the instructions and choices put to us in scripture unreal.

God meets us more than half way -- He does all the work that counts, everything. But we still are given a real ability/freedom to respond to Him or refuse, including after baptism.

In other words, this isn't just a show. This isn't a simple play where everything is set ahead of time. God is in control of ultimate outcomes, but He has made us real, not just wooden puppets. Still, no matter what we do, He can cause the things He chooses to bring about to happen.

But if you do read 1rst John chapter 1, it's very good. We each should admit we sin when we do. If we don't we are refusing to let our feet be washed.
 
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nolidad

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This isn't quite the issue -- it's not that sinning is a permanent separation: we learn just the opposite in Luke chapter 15, and 1rst John chapter 1 and 2. That's not the real question people tend to be talking about. It's different: it's whether or not the prodigal in Luke ch 15 chooses to repent. Whether the individual in 1rst John chapter 1 admits/confesses that he/she has again done a wrong.

Does one admit that?

Or refuse to admit it?

That's one key thing. And...as you can see, if it's a choice then that's "free will".

An alternative view (I think wrong) is the idea our choices are already predetermined -- that they aren't real choices in an ultimate way, but only appear as if choices; in other words that 'free will' is just illusion. But I think that idea that it's all predetermined, so that we are like rigidly programmed robots, fully predictable, is incorrect, since it seems to make most of scripture just decoration, and all the instructions and choices put to us in scripture unreal.

God meets us more than half way -- He does all the work that counts, everything. But we still are given a real ability/freedom to respond to Him or refuse, including after baptism.

In other words, this isn't just a show. This isn't a simple play where everything is set ahead of time. God is in control of ultimate outcomes, but He has made us real, not just wooden puppets. Still, no matter what we do, He can cause the things He chooses to bring about to happen.

But if you do read 1rst John chapter 1, it's very good. We each should admit we sin when we do. If we don't we are refusing to let our feet be washed.

I am sorry but most of this is disconnected thoughts.

If one has trusted Christ and His death and resurrection fo rtheir sin- they are saved forever! They now are children of God. Our relationship went from enemies of God to His dear children

For the children- sin has forever been judged and put away! Because we accepted Christ, His blood washed away our sins forever! So does that mean we are free to sin? God forbid! What it does mean is that when a child of God sins, His feloowship with God is broken, but His relationship with God is still intact!

Just like a parent and child! Wjhen the child disobeys- they are sent to their roon or spanked or whatever- they are still children, but the flow of love is broken until that misdeed is acknowledged.
 
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Halbhh

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I am sorry but most of this is disconnected thoughts.

If one has trusted Christ and His death and resurrection fo rtheir sin- they are saved forever! They now are children of God. Our relationship went from enemies of God to His dear children

For the children- sin has forever been judged and put away! Because we accepted Christ, His blood washed away our sins forever! So does that mean we are free to sin? God forbid! What it does mean is that when a child of God sins, His feloowship with God is broken, but His relationship with God is still intact!

Just like a parent and child! Wjhen the child disobeys- they are sent to their roon or spanked or whatever- they are still children, but the flow of love is broken until that misdeed is acknowledged.

I'll try to make it all more clear how it all is connected. And it has something saved Christian believers need today.

Let's look more closely at the wording here:

1 It was just before the Passover Festival. Jesus knew that the hour had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end. ...

3 Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God; 4 so he got up from the meal, took off his outer clothing, and wrapped a towel around his waist. 5 After that, he poured water into a basin and began to wash his disciples’ feet, drying them with the towel that was wrapped around him.

6 He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, “Lord, are you going to wash my feet?”

7 Jesus replied, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand.”

8 “No,” said Peter, “you shall never wash my feet.”

Jesus answered, “Unless I wash you, you have no part with me.”

9 “Then, Lord,” Simon Peter replied, “not just my feet but my hands and my head as well!”

10 Jesus answered,Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean..."

---------------

See? You've already had a bath, your baptism/repentance with faith in Christ -- and therefore your whole body is clean generally...

...but not your feet...which will need washing now and then.

He said “Unless I wash you, you have no part with me.” And we see how our feet are cleansed, again and again, in 1rst John chapter 1.

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."


We have to admit when we do wrongs. Confess to our Father, repentantly. Many modern Christians don't realize this.

What you said is helpful: "...but the flow of love is broken until that misdeed is acknowledged." But it's not only merely to restore the flow of love, but it's crucial for us, because unless we have our feet washed by confession and cleansing from above, we are more and more separated from him, and become more like the prodigal son before he confessed and repented. That confession in Luke chapter 15 is a good example also.
 
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nolidad

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I'll try to make it all more clear how it all is connected. And it has something saved Christian believers need today.

Let's look more closely at the wording here:

1 It was just before the Passover Festival. Jesus knew that the hour had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end. ...

3 Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God; 4 so he got up from the meal, took off his outer clothing, and wrapped a towel around his waist. 5 After that, he poured water into a basin and began to wash his disciples’ feet, drying them with the towel that was wrapped around him.

6 He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, “Lord, are you going to wash my feet?”

7 Jesus replied, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand.”

8 “No,” said Peter, “you shall never wash my feet.”

Jesus answered, “Unless I wash you, you have no part with me.”

9 “Then, Lord,” Simon Peter replied, “not just my feet but my hands and my head as well!”

10 Jesus answered,Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean..."

---------------

See? You've already had a bath, your baptism/repentance with faith in Christ -- and therefore your whole body is clean generally...

...but not your feet...which will need washing now and then.

He said “Unless I wash you, you have no part with me.” And we see how our feet are cleansed, again and again, in 1rst John chapter 1.

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."


We have to admit when we do wrongs. Confess to our Father, repentantly. Many modern Christians don't realize this.

What you said is helpful: "...but the flow of love is broken until that misdeed is acknowledged." But it's not only merely to restore the flow of love, but it's crucial for us, because unless we have our feet washed by confession and cleansing from above, we are more and more separated from him, and become more like the prodigal son before he confessed and repented. That confession in Luke chapter 15 is a good example also.

If by all this you are trying to say sin causes us to lose our salvation until we acknowledge it- you are biblically wrong!
 
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nolidad

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Again, the context is clear for anyone who is willing to see it.

"And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him," (Matthew 12:32).​

Speaking a word against the Son of man is like when people curse the name of Jesus with actual real words. Hence, why it says speaks a word against the Son of Man.

This is contrasted with speaking against the Holy Ghost.

Even on the most basic English reading level, we know that if we speak a word against someone, we are speaking bad words against that person. That is what it is saying.

That sin could only be committed when Jesus walked the earth and only by the nation of Israel. It was a national and not personal sin. And the judgment was 70AD
 
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