LDS David and Solomon

[He is the way]

Not needed.
All for nothing.

(New Testament | 1 Peter 3:15 - 22)

15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

 

[BigDaddy4]

There has to be accurate information for each individual. That's why we spent hours doing genealogical research. My husband and I traveled to different states, too, talking to the older relatives and visiting cemeteries. The baptisms and other ordinances are done one at a time.

Visiting cemeteries?? That's crazy!

 

[mmksparbud]

Visiting cemeteries?? That's crazy!

Crazy? Apparently that translates to being a vibrant church service!

 

[He is the way]

Visiting cemeteries?? That's crazy!

Well there is find a grave online.

 

[Ironhold]

Last time I was meandering about a cemetery, it was because the congregation I was with had organized with the city to do a clean-up. Someone who shall remain anonymous had forgotten to actually budget money for grounds-keeping, and so as a stop-gap we agreed to come in one weekend and do the work as a community service effort.

We got the place mowed, trimmed back the vegetation, and cleaned what headstones weren't swarmed with ants.

 

[Rescued One]

Well there is find a grave online.

Find a Grave is a very limited source and when we did our research there was no internet.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Find a Grave is a very limited source and when we did our research there was no internet.

What was the purpose of visiting these cemeteries? To verify birth/death records so the deceased could be baptized by proxy? I don't get it, I guess.

 

[He is the way]

Find a Grave is a very limited source and when we did our research there was no internet.

It is limited, but it is getting better as are the genealogy sites like ancestry.

 

[Rescued One]

What was the purpose of visiting these cemeteries? To verify birth/death records so the deceased could be baptized by proxy? I don't get it, I guess.

People visit cemeteries to gather information. Mormons do it it for clues; I'm not sure if it is considered a verifiable source that LDS use. Some headstones have a death date and age, but the records of that location may have burned or were never kept.

Yes, the reasearch is for proxy work. If there are errors recorded and done by proxy, I think they expect corrections to be made during the Millennium.

 

[Peter1000]

One, or by the dozen, it gets you nowhere and is a dead, useless ceremony for baptism is for the living, He is not the God of the dead---and the baptism of Jesus covers those who have never had an opportunity to be baptized. His blood covers our sins, His baptism covers those who did not receive it. Jesus is all we need for our entry into the presence of God, not useless ceremonies. Baptism is to be done whenever possible, when it isn't, Jesus covers it.

You come from the people that followed after Martin Luther. He is the one that said ceremonies don't matter. But he was absolutely wrong.

Luther was so sick of bad priests that he wanted to do away with priests altogether, and in order to do that, he had to get rid of what they did, and that was to administer the ordinances, or the sacraments of the church. So that is what he did, got rid of everything. So now people think we do not need any ordinances to get into heaven. We do, don't be fooled. We don't go overboard like the RC did, but the Lord did give commandments to do some things in order to get into heaven.

 

[mmksparbud]

You come from the people that followed after Martin Luther. He is the one that said ceremonies don't matter. But he was absolutely wrong.

Luther was so sick of bad priests that he wanted to do away with priests altogether, and in order to do that, he had to get rid of what they did, and that was to administer the ordinances, or the sacraments of the church. So that is what he did, got rid of everything. So now people think we do not need any ordinances to get into heaven. We do, don't be fooled. We don't go overboard like the RC did, but the Lord did give commandments to do some things in order to get into heaven.

There were others before and during Luther. Wycliff was the precursor to Luther. There was also Tyndale and Huss. There was always a remnant that God kept. Jesus gave the Last supper, foot washing, baptism, none of which need a priest, but an anointed elder to do the job. Marriage was never a requirement to enter into heaven as Jesus was never married. And there is nothing to indicate the Paul was. Nothing at all that John the Baptist was ever married, in spite of a novel written in 2014 about him having a wife. Not one hint is given in the bible about it. In fact, the only apostle that we know for certain to have been married is Peter. Phillip "the evangelist" also was married, he had 4 daughters that prophesied. There is also this verse:
1Co 9:5 Have we no right to lead about a wife that is a believer, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?

So it is possible that others were married. Paul was not , speculation is he might haver been married and is now a widower, but nothing attests to that.
1Co 7:8 But I say to the unmarried and to widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.

And God commanded Jeremiah not to marry or have children--in this place. It is assumed he might have had some elsewhere later, but there is no mention of one---there are 2 Jeremiahs, the prophet is from Anathoth, Jeremiah related to King Zedekiah was from Libnah.

 

[Rescued One]

You come from the people that followed after Martin Luther. He is the one that said ceremonies don't matter. But he was absolutely wrong.

Luther was so sick of bad priests that he wanted to do away with priests altogether, and in order to do that, he had to get rid of what they did, and that was to administer the ordinances, or the sacraments of the church. So that is what he did, got rid of everything. So now people think we do not need any ordinances to get into heaven. We do, don't be fooled. We don't go overboard like the RC did, but the Lord did give commandments to do some things in order to get into heaven.

Oh, your church goes overboard performing ordinances proclaimed by a false prophet.

 

[He is the way]

Oh, your church goes overboard performing ordinances proclaimed by a false prophet.

(New Testament | Luke 1:6)

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

 

[Peter1000]

Crazy? Apparently that translates to being a vibrant church service!

As crazy as that sounds it translates perfectly. We are trying to find information about people that have passed away into the spirit world. Many times a graveyard will have vital information on the headstone. Many wonderful stories of people that were able to locate an ancestor because of that kind of information and a whole line of ancestors opened up to get ready to do their work.

It is the culmination of the scripture in Malachi at the end of the OT. We are turning our hearts to the fathers by finding their names even in graveyards, and they are turning their hearts to us as we work together to get them baptized and given the Holy Spirit plus many other important ordinances. That is the meaning of the scripture to work together in this great work of the Lord before he comes.

Most of our finding abilities is on the computer, but some times in Europe we have to do extraordinary things to find our ancestors.

 

[Peter1000]

Oh, your church goes overboard performing ordinances proclaimed by a false prophet.

Most of those proclaimed by our prophet were proclaimed by Jesus in the NT.

 

[mmksparbud]

As crazy as that sounds it translates perfectly. We are trying to find information about people that have passed away into the spirit world. Many times a graveyard will have vital information on the headstone. Many wonderful stories of people that were able to locate an ancestor because of that kind of information and a whole line of ancestors opened up to get ready to do their work.

It is the culmination of the scripture in Malachi at the end of the OT. We are turning our hearts to the fathers by finding their names even in graveyards, and they are turning their hearts to us as we work together to get them baptized and given the Holy Spirit plus many other important ordinances. That is the meaning of the scripture to work together in this great work of the Lord before he comes.

Most of our finding abilities is on the computer, but some times in Europe we have to do extraordinary things to find our ancestors.

There is nothing in Malachi about graveyards.

 

[Peter1000]

There is nothing in Malachi about graveyards.

It implies graveyards if you must. Where is one place on the earth that you can find information on your dead fathers? In a graveyard. If my heart is turned to my fathers and I am looking for information about them, that is one place I can look.

But of course, Malachi did not say anything about graveyards. But we are turning our hearts to our fathers and they are turning their hearts to us to do a great work of getting our fathers in the spirit world ready for the second coming of Jesus and the resurrection.

 

[mmksparbud]

It implies graveyards if you must. Where is one place on the earth that you can find information on your dead fathers? In a graveyard. If my heart is turned to my fathers and I am looking for information about them, that is one place I can look.

But of course, Malachi did not say anything about graveyards. But we are turning our hearts to our fathers and they are turning their hearts to us to do a great work of getting our fathers in the spirit world ready for the second coming of Jesus and the resurrection.

If your heart is turned to your fathers---it doesn't mean they are dead!! It's like the prodigal son, his heart turned to his father's and he went home.

 

[Peter1000]

Not needed.
All for nothing.

If we believe that all people who have ever lived on the earth need to have the necessary ordinances performed by the proper authority in order to be saved, and we are finding our ancestors and are doing that work for them by proxy, that is a noble work.

To you it is worthless, not needed. To us it accomplishes 2 major things.

1) We believe this is how a person can be properly baptized into the church of Jesus Christ. A person who never heard of Jesus in his/her lifetime, but did hear about Jesus in the spirit world, is now baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. OR A couple is properly married for time and for eternity and can now be together for ever.

So it is a work that we believe allows our ancestors to receive all of the ordinances that are necessary for salvation.

2) When we as men and women stand in by proxy for these ancestors ordinances, we hear the covenants that are pronounced on their behalf. For instance, a few days ago, my wife and I were standing in for a man and a woman that were married in 1692, and we heard again, the marriage covenant that was pronounced in their behalf. When we heard this, we were holding each others hands in proxy for them, and they received the same covenants that we received 45 years ago, we came out of that proxy marriage with a better understanding of our marriage vows and it made our marriage stronger.

We believe it is a work that not only can help save our ancestors, but it can keep our covenants close to our minds and can help us endure to the end and save us too.

Let's just for the heck of it say that it is all for nothing, as you say. It still is a noble work, and we are still strengthened in the Lord for doing it. So it is not a waste if it keeps us true to our journey with Christ to the end. Besides it can be fun to link your ancestors back 500 years, and our children, even young children can get into the spirit of this work as they link to their ancestors, with pictures and stories.

Phoebe Ann makes it sound like a burden, and if it was a burden to her, and gave her bad thoughts, it is good she moved away from it. It is all voluntary work, and the Lord wants us to be happy in his service.

 

[Peter1000]

If your heart is turned to your fathers---it doesn't mean they are dead!! It's like the prodigal son, his heart turned to his father's and he went home.

When you put 2 exclamation points at the end of a sentence, it means you are screaming at us.
You are so emphatic and dogmatic in your belief system, there is absolutely no room for anyone else to have an opinion, without being destroyed if it does not fit with your opinion.

The word "fathers" has a general meaning of "ancestors". To be fair, it could mean your father, your grandfather (who could be still alive), but it is rare that you know your great grandfather, but still possible. It is not possible for you to know your great-great grandfather, he would be dead by the time you were born.

So when the scripture refers to "fathers", we believe it is referring to all of our "fathers", not just our living ones, but our dead ones too.

It is difficult to even have this conversation with you because you believe that at death, a person goes to sleep and does not wake up until the resurrection. Which is so way different than the way we think about life after death. I believe most Christians believe there is life after immediate death, and that our flesh body does sleep until the resurrection, but our spirit body continues to live. There is obviously a difference of opinion about where and what that spirit body is doing until the resurrection, but that is another story.