I'm Pro-Life, but I'm not Anti-Killing

Speedwell

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"Pro-life" just means that you want draconian laws against abortion. A substantial number of people who are "pro-life" also favor the death penalty for many crimes. Ethics doesn't come into it.
 
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ToBeLoved

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"Pro-life" just means that you want draconian laws against abortion. A substantial number of people who are "pro-life" also favor the death penalty for many crimes. Ethics doesn't come into it.
Because criminals convicted of a terrible crime should morally be equivalent to the innocent unborn.
 
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Sabertooth

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So, is there an ethical mismatch in my stance, or can it be explained by differences in semantics?
You state that you are a pantheist, but you pose your question on Christian Forums. What ethical standard/worldview are you hoping to hear answers from...?
 
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durangodawood

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So, is there an ethical mismatch in my stance, or can it be explained by differences in semantics?
Not necessarily an ethical mismatch.

But it does indicate that "pro life" is typically the wrong term for an anti-abortion position. Its way too general, and most "pro life" people are fine with killing in a great number of circumstances.
 
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Sabertooth

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Silverback

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"Pro-life" just means that you want draconian laws against abortion. A substantial number of people who are "pro-life" also favor the death penalty for many crimes. Ethics doesn't come into it.

Ethics does figure into it. People sentenced to death have committed terrible crimes, they were convicted by a court of law, and sentenced by a court of law. The unborn child has not committed any crimes worth of execution.
 
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AlexDTX

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So, is there an ethical mismatch in my stance, or can it be explained by differences in semantics?

None of us are truly pro-life. I am speaking from a Christian point of view. When God gave Adam dominion over the Earth, it was before the Fall of Mankind. All of us are still trapped in the "After the Fall" mindset of dominion. Jesus told us that we are not to lord over others as the Gentiles do, yet the pulpit has many (not all) who see themselves (subconsciously) as "lords" over the flock, although consciously they call themselves "shepherds".

We all use death to our advantage. If a bug flies in the house, we kill it. We eat animal flesh slaughtered by someone else so we don't have to deal with the cognitive dissonance. We entrust the defense of our country to other men and women trained to kill others on our behalf.

I often wonder how God intended Adam to have dominion over the Earth before the Fall of Mankind? The answer is seen in Christ who has given us his authority, but few of us actually know how to use it. Jesus spoke to the storm and told it to cease. Jesus cast out demons in those deemed insane. Jesus fed the thousands by blessing the bread and multiplying it.

I believe no baby should be killed in the womb. But I also believe no baby should be formed out of wedlock. It is clear to me that the reason the majority of Christians do not walk in the power of God is because, we, too, lack self control.
 
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Anguspure

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"Pro-life" just means that you want draconian laws against abortion. A substantial number of people who are "pro-life" also favor the death penalty for many crimes. Ethics doesn't come into it.
Draco probably would have enjoyed abortion, he certainly enjoyed killing people for other minor misdemeanors. The crime of unwelcome habitation of a woman's body would certainly have been a capital punishment.
 
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jardiniere

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You state that you are a pantheist, but you pose your question on Christian Forums. What ethical standard/worldview are you hoping to hear answers from...?

Christians. And others who are not Christians.

I was raised Christian, but I can no longer believe there is such a thing as the Christian (actually, the Judeo-Christian-Islamic) god.
 
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jardiniere

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I use "Fetal Rights" for that position.

Ah, I haven't heard that. My positions were established a long time ago, and I usually go back and revisit them to see if they need revision. I don't think abortion is ethically sound, but I also don't think it's the worst sort of killing humans do.
 
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jardiniere

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Ethics does figure into it. People sentenced to death have committed terrible crimes,
No, not always.
they were convicted by a court of law, and sentenced by a court of law.
Absolutely true.
The unborn child has not committed any crimes worth of execution.

We don't kill people just because they commit crimes. And we don't kill people just because they are sentenced by law. Given this, there is probably something else implicit in our beliefs about killing people other than crime.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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"Pro-life" just means that you want draconian laws against abortion. A substantial number of people who are "pro-life" also favor the death penalty for many crimes. Ethics doesn't come into it.

On my part, I stand by what I said elsewhere about my being "PRO-LIFE," and if the Right or the Left doesn't like my definition ... they can eat a bowl of Fruit Loops!


{Wait a minute! You changed your religious designation? OH.........................kay.}
 
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2PhiloVoid

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So, is there an ethical mismatch in my stance, or can it be explained by differences in semantics?

Nope. There's no mismatch. It just means that while you think all people have significance for the sheer fact that they're human, the idea that inherent rights to life somehow automatically come with all of that, no matter what, is fraught with fault lines. That's all. Easy - Peezy!
 
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Sabertooth

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I can no longer believe there is such a thing as the Christian (snipped) god.
Then, how will knowing the opinions of His people help you...?
 
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jardiniere

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Then, how will knowing the opinions of His people help you...?

You gave me a new term.

Christians often pose Pro-Life in a Christian context, and I always want to know if I've overlooked a significant argument. It's pretty clear at this point many Christians believe "innocence" is a factor in the ethical treatment of other people, especially that of the unborn, while other Christians believe no one is innocent of evil before their god (think some forms of Calvinism here). Reading the back and forth between Christians, Jews and Muslims is interesting, because it's almost* always in terms of their relationship to God and not that of society as a whole. Knowing these argument helps me better refine my own ethical beliefs.

*almost is generous, I haven't read other types of argument bereft of god from religious people, tbh.
 
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Silverback

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No, not always.Absolutely true.

We don't kill people just because they commit crimes. And we don't kill people just because they are sentenced by law. Given this, there is probably something else implicit in our beliefs about killing people other than crime.

you brought up capital punishment, what I said in reference to that is true. Petty theft is not punished by execution...at least not in the US.
 
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Sabertooth

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It's pretty clear at this point many Christians believe "innocence" is a factor in the ethical treatment of other people, especially that of the unborn, while other Christians believe no one is innocent of evil before their god (snipped).
  • The unborn have not violated the "laws of the land" [see Romans 13] and are not deserving of capital punishment, in that context.
  • The unborn are conceived in hereditary guilt just like everybody else. That judgment occurs at the end of one's life, unless they have accepted God's terms of Amnesty.
 
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Speedwell

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On my part, I stand by what I said elsewhere about my being "PRO-LIFE," and if the Right or the Left doesn't like my definition ... they can eat a bowl of Fruit Loops!


{Wait a minute! You changed your religious designation? OH.........................kay.}
But not my religion. I'm still an Anglican. "Other religion" is more accurate in the present political climate, where only right-wing Evangelicals are deemed to be real Christians.
 
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