Christ, Israel, and the fall of Jerusalem

[mkgal1]

Acts 5:17 ~ Then the high priest and all his associates, who were members of the party of the Sadducees, were filled with jealousy.​

Specifically when Jesus inspected the Temple - in doing that - He was performing the task of a High Priest. He was suggesting (by His actions) that HE was High Priest......and was an element of the entire power struggle between the apostate religious leaders and Him.

Quoting linked article (the link no longer works) -------->
New House and New Stones
The house cleansings are separated from the first inspection by seven days, according to the Levitical law. As I mentioned, the seven-day period does appear in John. In order to see it, however, we need to consider the whole picture of what I have discussed so far: Jesus as the true Temple, and His cleansings of the Old Covenant temple as a visitation of judgment on an idolatrous and complacent house. This is the story of Jesus in John’s Gospel.

It all begins at the initiation of Jesus’ public ministry at His baptism. The day of Jesus’ baptism in John’s Gospel begins a seven-day narrative. On the first day, Jesus is baptized, John proclaims Him to be the lamb of God, and the Holy Spirit descends live a dove and remains upon Jesus. This was all done for the purpose, as John the Baptist says, “that he might be revealed to Israel” (John 1:31). There is so much theology here it is impossible to note it all without distraction. In short, here we have the Spirit of God hovering over the New Creation on the first day; here we have the new Ark of salvation coming up out of the water of baptism, and the dove finding the dry land of the New World. But most importantly for our purposes, here we have God’s Spirit-glory filling the New House. This is explained as follows:

In Exodus 40:34–35, when Moses first erected the first house of God, the tabernacle, we read: “Then the cloud covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle. And Moses was not able to enter the tent of meeting because the cloud settled on it, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle.” Two aspects are important: the cloud, which was God’s Spirit or presence, and the fact that it settled (or dwelled) there. The Hebrew word for “settled” is shakan, from which we get the phrase shekinah glory. It simply refers to God’s abiding presence. (Ironically, the Hebrew word for “tabernacle” throughout the book of Exodus is mishkan—the noun form of shakan—which means literally “a dwelling place.”)

This scene is replayed exactly when Solomon dedicates the temple:

And when the priests came out of the Holy Place, a cloud filled the house of the Lord, so that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud, for the glory of the Lord filled the house of the Lord. Then Solomon said, “The Lord has said that he would dwell [shakan] in thick darkness. I have indeed built you an exalted house, a place for you to dwell [shakan] in forever” (1 Kings 8:10–13).

This is exactly what God told John the Baptist to watch for in Jesus: “He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain” (John 1:33). It is clear from this image alone that Jesus, the Son of God, was in fact God’s New House, New place of dwelling. Jesus was the New Temple. This would mean, of course, that the old temple in Jerusalem was already obsolete. From the day of the revealing of the true temple to Israel, all those old temple rituals and all the traditions and idolatrous practices that had grown up around them, were nothing but corruption in God’s house of Israel. The new house was already established and indwelt by the spirit. The by definition “closed” the other house for covenant business. The closing of the house, also, was part of the seven-day wait period (Lev. 14:38).

 

[redleghunter]

Wasn't there only one unconditional covenant (the one between Abraham & God)?

The one between God and David was another. We know that because Jesus Christ is the promised fulfillment of the Davidic line having a King in the Throne forever. All the promises to David are fulfilled and will be fulfilled through and in Christ our Victorious King.

 

[mkgal1]

The one between God and David was another. We know that because Jesus Christ is the promised fulfillment of the Davidic line having a King in the Throne forever. All the promises to David are fulfilled and will be fulfilled through and in Christ our Victorious King.

I'm glad you brought that up. That's true. I found this article about that:

Quoting from linked article:
2 Samuel 7:12–17 does what a lot of prophetic passages do: it takes an extended telescope of events and collapses it down so that the near and distant events are viewed together. For example, in these six verses God promises on the one hand that Solomon, David's son, will reign in David's place and will build a house for God. This is why verse 14 can say, "When he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men, but I will not take my steadfast love from him as I took it from Saul, whom I put away from before you."

We know from verse 12 that God intends for David to die. Yet verse 16 says: "Your kingdom shall be made sure forever before me; your throne shall be established for ever." This must mean that the kingdom of David would be established and secured by a descendant. But Solomon is depicted as a sinner who has to be chastened. The kingdom can never be secure in the hands of a sinner. Look at what God does in 1 Kings 11:11–13 after Solomon marries foreign women and worships their gods: "The Lord said to Solomon, 'Since this has been your mind and you have not kept my covenant and my statutes which I have commanded you, I will surely tear the kingdom from you and give it to your servant. Yet for the sake of David your father I will not do it in your days, but I will tear it out of the hand of your son. However, I will not tear away all the kingdom, but I will give one tribe to your son, for the sake of David my servant and for the sake of Jerusalem which I have chosen.'" This shows that the promise to establish David's kingdom cannot happen as long as the descendants of David are rebellious and disobedient.

The Hope for David's Righteous Son

The conditionality of this covenant is repeated again and again in Kings and Chronicles. For example, in 1 Kings 2:4 David tells Solomon that God said, "If your sons take heed to their ways, to walk before me in faithfulness with all their heart and with all their soul, there shall not fail you a man on the throne of Israel." This means that as long as David's sons are disobedient the kingdom cannot be made secure for ever. Then look at 1 Kings 8:25 where Solomon prays, "Now, Lord God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father what thou hast promised him, saying, 'There shall never fail you a man before me to sit upon the throne of Israel if only your sons take heed to their way to walk before me as you have walked before me.'" (See also 1 Kings 6:11, 12; 9:4–9; 1 Chronicles 22:8–13; 28:1–10.)

Israel learned over the centuries following David and Solomon that disobedience in her king always brought the nation to ruin. But the godly among them knew one thing for sure: God had promised that the throne of David would be established forever (2 Samuel 7:4). So they came to see that a son of David must be coming who would fulfill the conditions of the covenant, sit on David's throne, and rule forever. A succession of imperfect kings could never fulfill the promise. If God were true to his word, if He stuck by his job description in 2 Samuel 7, he would have to raise up a righteous, obedient son of David to take the throne (see Psalm 89:29–37). ~ God's Covenant with David​

......and He did!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
Luke 21 and Revelation go together quite nicely......

Captivity and sword Luke 21:24 Revelation 13:10

Luke 19:43
That shall be arriving<2240> days upon thee, and thy Enemies shall be casting up a rampart<5482> to thee, and shall be encompassing<4033> thee, and pressing thee every which place.

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

Revelation 18:8
Thru this in one day shall be arriving<2240> Her blows, death and sorrow and famine.
And in fire She shall be utterly burned<2618>,
that strong Lord the GOD, the One judging Her.

Luke 21:
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded<2944> by armies, then know that its desolation has come near.
24 “And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. [Revelation 13:10]
And Jerusalem will be trampled<3961> by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” [Revelation 11:2]

Revelation 11:
1 And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rouse! and measure! the Sanctuary of the God and the Altar and those worshiping in it
2 and the Court/fold<833> without of the Sanctuary, be Casting-Out!<1544> out-side, and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the Nations
and they shall be trampling<3961> the holy City forty two months

redleghunter said: ↑
Revelation 13:10 is about the beast and those who follow him. So is Revelation 19. Neither have anything to do with 70AD unless of course you want to take the position the Jews are the beast.
Sure there were church fathers which believed this and it reflected in how the medieval church treated Jews terribly.

Actually I can view the Land Beast as OC 1st century Jewish/Judah. [The Sea Beast perhaps represent the Israel/Gentiles?]
The 2 horns could symbolize OC Judah and Levi? [Levi is listed 8th in order of the tribes].

Still a work in progress
The wild Beasts from the Sea and from the Land

The wild Beast Out of the Land

redleghunter said: ↑
In Revelation the beast and false prophet are defeated. The Gentile Romans won in 70AD.
That alone defeats the idea all prophecy of end times was fulfilled in that period.

It depends on who you view the beast and the false prophet to be.

I believe the beast was Zealot-Led Israel. It was also “the beast” in the book of Revelation that partnered with the false prophets of first century Israel, called “the beast from the land” and “the false prophet.”

This series includes a study of the beast(s) in Daniel 2, 7; Revelation 11, 13-17, 19-20. ~ Pursuing Truth

Hello mkgal. That is indeed a great site.

I actually have a thread on that, and perhaps I should bring it also to this board.........

The wild Beasts from the Sea and from the Land

I have never read thru Preston Eby's commentary on Revelation as it is far to large and extensive. It already consists of 220 parts and still adding to it. I will not be using most his commentary, just the most relevant parts that apply to the Bible, both OT and NT.
I was floored when I saw there are over 11 Parts on this topic!!
Feel free to comment.

Revelation 13:

The wild Beast Out of the Sea

1 And I was standing on the sand of the sea and I saw out of the sea a wild Beast ascending, having seven heads and ten horns.
And upon its horns ten diadems, and upon its heads names of blasphemy.
2 And the wild Beast that I saw was like as a leopard,and its feet as of a bear and its mouth as the mouth of a lion.
And the Dragon gives to it his power and throne and great authority.
3 And one out of its heads as having been slain/slaughtered into death, and the blow of the death of it was healed.
And the whole land marvels after the Beast.
4 And they worship to the Dragon that it gives authority to the wild Beast,
and they worship to the wild Beast, saying, ‘Who like to the Beast? who is able to war with it?
5 And was given to it a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies.
And was given to it authority to do which it is willing forth two months.
6 And it open it's mouth into blasphemies toward the God, to blaspheme His name and His Tabernacle and those who in the heaven tabernacling.
7 And was given to it to do war with the Saints and to overcome/conquer them.
And was given it authority over every Tribe and Tongue and Nation.
8 And shall be worshiping it all those dwelling upon the land,
of whom not has been written his name in the Scroll of the Life of the Lambkin, of the One slain/slaughtered from the foundation of the world.
9 If any is having ear — let him hear!
10 If any to captivity, into captivity he is giong away.
If any in sword shall be killing, it is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance and the faith of the Saints.
Captivity and sword Luke 21:24 Revelation 13:10

The wild Beast Out of the Land

11 And I saw another wild Beast ascending out of the land,
and it had two horns like a lambkin and it spoke as a Dragon.
12 And the authority of the first wild Beast all it is doing in view of it.
And is making the land and those dwelling in it that to be worshiping the first wild Beast, of which was cured the blow of the death of it.
13 And it is doing great signs that even fire it may be making out of the heaven descending into the land in view of the men.
14 And it is deceiving those dwelling on the land thru the signs which was given to it to do in view of the wild Beast,
saying to those dwelling upon the land to make an image to the wild Beast which hath the blow of the sword and lives.
15 And was given to it to give spirit/breath to the image of the wild Beast, that also the image of the wild Beast should be speaking.
And should be causing as many as shall no should be worshiping to the image of the wild Beast, that they may be being killed.

16 And it is causing all the small and the great and the rich and the poor, and the freemen and the servants that may be giving to them a mark upon their right hand or upon their foreheads.
17 And that no one may be able to buy, or to sell, except he who is having the mark of the wild Beast or the name of the wild Beast, or the number of it's name.
18 Here the wisdom is being!
The one having mind, let him calculate the number of the wild Beast, for number of man it is, and its number six hundred sixty six.
==========================================
http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/tablecontents.htm

5 Parts of 11 Parts

Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series
thru
Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series

The Beast Out of the Sea

==================
6 Parts of 11 Parts

Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series
thru
Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series

THE BEAST OUT OF THE LAND

It appears the Sea Beast is going after the Whole/Land Beast.......lots of OT Hebrew symbology and still studying on it.
Revelation is a battle between the NC Saints vs the OC Mosaic Temple system....
A few times Israel and Judah fought in the OT and both are mentioned in the Covenantal book of Revelation.

1 Kings 15:1-8 Rehoboam is succeeded by his son Abijah as King of Judah (from c.914 to c.912BC). Throughout his reign, Judah is at war with Israel.

1 Kings 15:9-16 Abijah’s son Asa becomes King of Judah in c.912BC. He burns the idols and cuts down the ‘Asherah poles’. He is constantly at war with Israel.

Please visit my "queen/harlot" thread........

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

Revelation 17:15 And He is saying to me "These the Waters which thou saw, where the harlot is sitting, are peoples and multitudes<3793> are being, and nations and tongues.
16 And the ten Horns which thou saw and the Beast, These shall be hating the harlot,
and They shall be making Her desolate<2049> and naked,
and the fleshes of Her they shall be eating<5315>
and shall be burning<2618> Her in fire.

Revelation 18:8 Thru this in one day shall be arriving<2240> Her blows, death and sorrow and famine.
And in fire She shall be utterly burned,
that strong Lord the GOD, the One judging Her.
=============================================
Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterist Eschatology and Preterism

CAST OF CHARACTERS: Roman: Emperor Nero | General Vespasian | General Titus | The Roman Army || Jewish: General / Historian Josephus | Factional Leaders in Jerusalem || Administrators of Roman Judea Targets: Jerusalem | Herod's Temple // Maps of the Roman Invasion // Theological Timeline

CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR

Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68
Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10, 70

 

[redleghunter]

While you are correct that OT events and personalities were indeed types and shadows that pointed to New testament objects and realities, the Apostles did not see or teach this as continuing beyond the messianic generation. For Christ is no shadow but the object itself.

I did not make mention the apostles would see types and shadows. But they did report what Jesus actually fulfilled and Christ Himself said He would come again.

Not all of the Messianic prophecies were fulfilled in the First Advent of Messiah.

Isaiah 61 makes this clear.

Isaiah 61: NASB

1The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me,
Because the LORD has anointed me
To bring good news to the afflicted;
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to captives
And freedom to prisoners;

2To proclaim the favorable year of the LORD
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,

3To grant those who mourn in Zion,
Giving them a garland instead of ashes,
The oil of gladness instead of mourning,
The mantle of praise instead of a spirit of fainting.
So they will be called oaks of righteousness,
The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.

4Then they will rebuild the ancient ruins,
They will raise up the former devastations;
And they will repair the ruined cities,
The desolations of many generations.

Jesus mentions in Luke 4 only verses 1-2a as fulfilled in their presence. The remaining yet to be fulfilled in the Second Advent.

After the Resurrection of Jesus, He spent 40 days with His disciples. Before the Ascension into Heaven to be seated at the Right Hand of the Father, the disciples still asked a millennial question:

Acts 1: NASB

6So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” 7He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;8but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”

He told them to focus on the mission at hand right in front of them. Jesus never told them “hey we are now A-millennial didn’t I tell you that the past 40 days?” No He told them to not worry about how the Father would unfold those events.

 

[mkgal1]

Isaiah 61: NASB

1The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me,
Because the LORD has anointed me
To bring good news to the afflicted;
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to captives
And freedom to prisoners;

2To proclaim the favorable year of the LORD
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,

3To grant those who mourn in Zion,
Giving them a garland instead of ashes,
The oil of gladness instead of mourning,
The mantle of praise instead of a spirit of fainting.
So they will be called oaks of righteousness,
The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.

4Then they will rebuild the ancient ruins,
They will raise up the former devastations;
And they will repair the ruined cities,
The desolations of many generations.

Jesus mentions in Luke 4 only verses 1-2a as fulfilled in their presence. The remaining yet to be fulfilled in the Second Advent.

After the Resurrection of Jesus, He spent 40 days with His disciples. Before the Ascension into Heaven to be seated at the Right Hand of the Father, the disciples still asked a millennial question:

Acts 1: NASB

6So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” 7He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;8but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”

He told them to focus on the mission at hand right in front of them. Jesus never told them “hey we are now A-millennial didn’t I tell you that the past 40 days?” No He told them to not worry about how the Father would unfold those events.

But look at Luke 21:21-22 ~

The Destruction of Jerusalem
…Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city. For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

There was a period of 40 years between Jesus' death on the cross and the destruction of Jerusalem. Do you know what the number 40 represents?

"In the Hebrew Bible, forty is often used for time periods, forty days or forty years, which separate "two distinct epochs". Rain fell for "forty days and forty nights" during the Flood (Genesis 7:4)." ~ What is the Significance of the Number 40 In the Bible? - Amazing Bible Timeline with World History​

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I did not make mention the apostles would see types and shadows. But they did report what Jesus actually fulfilled and Christ Himself said He would come again.
Not all of the Messianic prophecies were fulfilled in the First Advent of Messiah.
Isaiah 61 makes this clear.
1The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me,
2To proclaim the favorable year of the LORD
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
.

I like Isaiah..........
Yes, Christ did indeed say He was coming again...... but for Vengeance on 1st century Jerusalem and it's Temple............

"DAYS OF VENGEANCE" Isaiah 61:2 and Luke 21:22 Revelation

His first speaking in the Temple:

Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together and a little child/lad shall lead them.

Luke 2:42 and when He became twelve years old, they having gone up to Jerusalem, according to the custom of the feast,
46 And it came to pass, after three days, they found Him in the Temple, sitting in the midst of the Teachers, both hearing them and questioning them, 47 and all those hearing Him were astonished at his understanding and answers. [Isaiah 11:6]

Then at about age 30, He reads from Chapt 61 of Isaiah:

Isaiah 61:2
To proclaim the year of the good pleasure of Yahweh,
And the day of vengeance<5359> of our 'Elohiym, To comfort all mourners.

Telling them He is the One prophecied:

Luke 4:
17 the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. Unrolling it, He found the place where it was written:
21 and He began by saying,
“Today this Scripture is fulfilled<4137> in your hearing.”

Then giving His 70ad Temple/Jerusalem Discourse, fulfilling the 2nd part of Isaiah 61 and the rest is history.......

Isaiah 61:2
To proclaim the year of the good pleasure of Yahweh,
And the day of vengeance<5359> of our 'Elohiym, To comfort all mourners.

Luke 21:
22 That days of vengeance<1557> these are, of the to be fulfilled<4130> all the having been written
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great Distress in the land and Wrath<3709> upon this people.

1 Thessalonians 2:
15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted<1559> us, and they do not please God and are contrary to all men,
16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved; to fill up their sins always:
but the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
=========================
Revelation 1:3
Blessed/happy the one reading/anaginwskwn<314> (5723), and the ones hearing, the Words of the Prophecy, and keepings in it having been written/gegrammena<1125> (5772),
for the Season/Time Is nigh/egguV<1451>.

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

Rev 18:4
And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.
Rev 18:5
“For Her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.

Revelation 19:2
“For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication;
and He has avenged<1556> on Her the blood of His servants shed by her.”

 

[redleghunter]

Where is the record of this one being literally fulfilled:

Isaiah 7:14
14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.

Go ahead and provide the scriptural (or even Historic) record of Mary the Virgin naming her Son Immanuel, as this prophesy says would LITERALLY happen.

Matthew 1: NASB

18Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit. 19And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly. 20But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21“She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.” 22Now all this took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet: 23“BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL,” which translated means, “GOD WITH US.” 24And Joseph awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife, 25but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

The very fact of the Incarnation shows Jesus Christ is literally God with us. Prophecy fulfilled.

 

[redleghunter]

But look at Luke 21:21-22 ~

The Destruction of Jerusalem
…Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city. For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

There was a period of 40 years between Jesus' death on the cross and the destruction of Jerusalem. Do you know what the number 40 represents?

"In the Hebrew Bible, forty is often used for time periods, forty days or forty years, which separate "two distinct epochs". Rain fell for "forty days and forty nights" during the Flood (Genesis 7:4)." ~ What is the Significance of the Number 40 In the Bible? - Amazing Bible Timeline with World History​

I’m not much into numerology.

 

[redleghunter]

It depends on who you view the beast and the false prophet to be.

I believe the beast was Zealot-Led Israel. It was also “the beast” in the book of Revelation that partnered with the false prophets of first century Israel, called “the beast from the land” and “the false prophet.”


This series includes a study of the beast(s) in Daniel 2, 7; Revelation 11, 13-17, 19-20. ~ Pursuing Truth

The early church did not believe the beast was past. Irenaeus for sure did not as he cautioned many Christians for trying to name the beast in his lifetime.

CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, V.30 (St. Irenaeus)

He also believed in a literal tribulation before the Second coming of Christ.

CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, V.29 (St. Irenaeus)

He was also a millennialist with a church flavor in mind.

CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, V.32 (St. Irenaeus)

He along with Papias claimed apostolic knowledge of their eschaton views.

 

[redleghunter]

I like Isaiah..........
Yes, Christ did indeed say He was coming again...... but for Vengeance on 1st century Jerusalem and it's Temple............

"DAYS OF VENGEANCE" Isaiah 61:2 and Luke 21:22 Revelation

His first speaking in the Temple:

Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together and a little child/lad shall lead them.

Luke 2:42 and when He became twelve years old, they having gone up to Jerusalem, according to the custom of the feast,
46 And it came to pass, after three days, they found Him in the Temple, sitting in the midst of the Teachers, both hearing them and questioning them, 47 and all those hearing Him were astonished at his understanding and answers. [Isaiah 11:6]

Then at about age 30, He reads from Chapt 61 of Isaiah:

Isaiah 61:2
To proclaim the year of the good pleasure of Yahweh,
And the day of vengeance<5359> of our 'Elohiym, To comfort all mourners.

Telling them He is the One prophecied:

Luke 4:
17 the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. Unrolling it, He found the place where it was written:
21 and He began by saying,
“Today this Scripture is fulfilled<4137> in your hearing.”

Then giving His 70ad Temple/Jerusalem Discourse, fulfilling the 2nd part of Isaiah 61 and the rest is history.......

Isaiah 61:2
To proclaim the year of the good pleasure of Yahweh,
And the day of vengeance<5359> of our 'Elohiym, To comfort all mourners.

Luke 21:
22 That days of vengeance<1557> these are, of the to be fulfilled<4130> all the having been written
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great Distress in the land and Wrath<3709> upon this people.

1 Thessalonians 2:
15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted<1559> us, and they do not please God and are contrary to all men,
16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved; to fill up their sins always:
but the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
=========================
Revelation 1:3
Blessed/happy the one reading/anaginwskwn<314> (5723), and the ones hearing, the Words of the Prophecy, and keepings in it having been written/gegrammena<1125> (5772),
for the Season/Time Is nigh/egguV<1451>.

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

Rev 18:4
And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.
Rev 18:5
“For Her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.

Revelation 19:2
“For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication;
and He has avenged<1556> on Her the blood of His servants shed by her.”

It’s obvious the church of the sub-Apostolic period did not believe Christ came back in 70AD. Even in the post Apostolic period Christ they looked for Christ yet to come.

I guess we had to wait for the advent of 20th century preterist theologians and YouTube to figure out all of Christendom missed Jesus coming back in 70AD. They even put the yet to come Advent in their creeds way after 70AD.

 

[misput]

Good Point.

On 3-27-02, a suicide bomber blew himself, and at least 19 Israelis into eternity. What many may be missing--in fact, some will not want to hear--is that the attack, taking place on Passover, has tremendous theological implications.

In 1967 the Arab league, led by Egypt, attacked Israel on Yom Kippur, the
Day of Atonement. This is one of Israel's most holy days of the year. It seemed, in the first day or two, that Israel was doomed. However, that war lasted, due to Israel's amazing military prowess, only 6 Days. Millennialists hailed Israel's victory as a positive sign that Jehovah was protecting her, and that, of course, we must be living in the last days! Let's take a closer look.

Instead of being a proof that Modern Israel are God's chosen people, the Yom Kippur attack in 1967, and the attack on Passover on 3/27/02 prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Modern Israel is not in covenant relationship with Jehovah. We know this from scripture.

Read Exodus 34:23: "Three times in the year all your men shall appear before
the Lord, the Lord God of Israel [passover, pentecost, tabernacles]. For I will cast out the nations before you and enlarge your borders; neither will any man covet your land when you go up to appear before the Lord your God three times in the year." The promise here is simple and profound. As long as Israel was in covenant relationship with Jehovah, their enemies would not attack them during their holy feast days!

For 1500 years there were no attacks against Israel during her feast days [During the Mosaic Age]. However, the siege of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 took place, the city fell, during Pentecost. What are the implications of that attack in light of Exodus 34? The Seven Day War of 1967 took place on Yom Kippur, Israel's most Holy Day. What are the implications in light of Exodus 34? And the attack on Passover on 3-27-02. What are the ramifications of this attack, on Israel's Holy Day?

If Israel is still God's chosen people, that Palestinian bomber should never have been allowed by Jehovah to attack during the Passover. If Israel is still God's chosen people the attack of 1967 should never have happened. Instead of Israel's victory at that time being a sign of her elect status, it was, and is, a sign of the direct opposite. It proved, and proves, beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Covenantal promise of Exodus 34 is no longer applicable! But if the Covenantal promise of Exodus 34 is no longer applicable, then the other promises of that Covenant, i.e., the promises of national restoration (e.g. Deuteronomy 30), are also now invalid, abrogated by Jehovah Himself.

Further, the attacks on Yom Kippur, and now Passover, also prove something else, a direct corollary to everything else. Either the Covenant promise of Exodus 34 is no longer valid, or, the people claiming to be Israel today are not the people of the Covenant of Exodus 34. If the Covenant of Exodus is still valid, but the people in Israel today were attacked in violation of Exodus 34, then what does it say about the identity of the people in Israel today? It says that they cannot be the people of the Covenant of Exodus 34!

Every time, and any time, that ANYONE attacks Israel during any of
her three feast days, Bible students everywhere should be trumpeting the
Biblical fact, that this proves, emphatically, and unequivocally, that Modern Geopolitical Israel is not the chosen people of God.

Makes more sense to me than at a future date a 1500 square mile cube plopping down on tiny Israel. Even the muselems believe a redeemer is coming back to establish a caliphate and take over the world. My question is; why does almost the whole religious world believe these things and can make a good case for their beliefs from scripture?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

But look at Luke 21:21-22 ~
There was a period of 40 years between Jesus' death on the cross and the destruction of Jerusalem. Do you know what the number 40 represents?

"In the Hebrew Bible, forty is often used for time periods, forty days or forty years, which separate "two distinct epochs". Rain fell for "forty days and forty nights" during the Flood (Genesis 7:4)." ~ What is the Significance of the Number 40 In the Bible? - Amazing Bible Timeline with World History​

– 40 stripes administered in punishing criminals Deuteronomy 25:3; 2 Corinthians 11:24

Very interesting.

Since you're into Bible numbers, what is your and/or others take on the 10 days mentioned in Revelation 2:10
[so many threads and so little time......]

Revelation 2:10 "tribulation 10 days"

Is the 10 days in this passage a literal 10 days or symbolic of some other amount of time? Thanks

Revelation 2:10
No yet one thou be fearing! which-things thou are being about to be suffering.
Behold! the Devil is being about to be casting ye into a prison<5438>, that ye may be being tried.
And ye shall be having tribulation ten days,
Be thou becoming faithful unto death! and I shall be giving to thee the Crown of the Life.
=================================================
Luke 21:12
“But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons<5438>.
You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake.

2 Corinthians 11
22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they descendants of Abraham? So am I. 23 Are they servants of Christ? I am speaking like I am out of my mind, but I am so much more:
in harder labor,
in more imprisonments,
in worse beatings,
in frequent danger of death.
24 By Judeans five times forty minus one.
25 Three times I was beaten with rods,
once I was stoned,
three times I was shipwrecked. I spent a night and a day in the open sea.
26 In my frequent journeys, I have been in dangers of rivers
and to dangers of bandits,
in dangers from fellow race,
from the Gentiles,
in city and in wilderness,
in danger on the sea
and to dangers in false brothers,
27 in labor and toil and often without sleep,
in hunger and thirst,
and often without food, in cold and exposure.

John 8:44 `Ye out of a father the Devil are, and the desires/epiqumiaV <1939> of the father of ye, ye are willing to be doing. That one a man-killer was from beginning and in the truth not has stood, that not is truth in him. Whenever he may be talking, the falsehood out of the own/P he is talking, that a falsifier he is and the father of it. [Reve 18:14]

Matthew 23:
32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers.
33 You serpents, brood of vipers, how will you escape the judgment of Gehenna?
34 Therefore, behold, I send to you prophets, wise men, and scribes. Some of them you will kill and crucify; and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute/pursue from city to city

 

[mkgal1]

I’m not much into numerology.

For one thing, there was more to that post than numbers.

Another thing, the significance to numbers in the Bible isn't "numerology".

 

[redleghunter]

Makes more sense to me than at a future date a 1500 square mile cube plopping down on tiny Israel. Even the muselems believe a redeemer is coming back to establish a caliphate and take over the world. My question is; why does almost the whole religious world believe these things and can make a good case for their beliefs from scripture?

Because the OT and NT Scriptures testify we will have a conquering King returning. Revelation 19 shows this.

The creeds testify Jesus will come again to judge the quick and the dead.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Because the OT and NT Scriptures testify we will have a conquering King returning. Revelation 19 shows this.

The creeds testify Jesus will come again to judge the quick and the dead.

I notice dispensationalist/futurists tend to "hide" behind some of the Creeds, especially concerning their form of eschatology...........

CF allows Partial Preterists to view 70AD Jerusalem as fulfilled, including that great City, OC 70AD Jerusalem in Revelation 18 and 19 which is before the 1000yr period and final judgement

Partial Preterism at PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterism

Statement of Purpose - Eschatology Forum Statement of Purpose

• Idealism: (also called the spiritual approach, the allegorical approach, the nonliteral approach, and many other names) in Christian eschatology is an interpretation of the Book of Revelation that sees all of the imagery of the book as symbols.
• Partial Preterism: Partial preterism holds that most eschatological prophecies, such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrists, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ, were fulfilled either in AD 70 or during the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Nero.
  
• The Second coming and the resurrection of the dead, however, have not yet occurred in the partial preterist system.

=======================================
However, Full Preterism is only allowed to be discussed on the CCT board.

V. Additional Rules

• Full preterism is not allowed.

Full preterism
Full preterism differs from partial preterism in that full preterists believe that the destruction of Jerusalem fulfilled all eschatological or "end times" events, including the resurrection of the dead and Jesus' Second Coming, or Parousia, and the Final Judgment.[40][page needed]
Other names of full preterism include:

• preterism (because the term itself means "past")
• consistent preterism
• true preterism
• hyper-preterism (a pejorative term used by opponents of preterists)
• pantelism. (The term "pantelism" comes from two Greek roots: παν (pan), "everything", and τελ- (tel-), referring to completion).
• Covenant Eschatology
• Fulfilled Eschatology[41]

Full preterists argue that a literal reading of Matthew 16:28 (where Jesus tells the disciples that some of them will not taste death until they see him coming in his kingdom)[42] places the second coming in the first century. This precludes a physical second coming of Christ. Instead, the second coming is symbolic of a "judgment" against Jerusalem, said to have taken place with the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem in AD 70.[43] For this reason, some people[which?] also call full preterism "the AD 70 Doctrine."[44] R. C. Sproul says of full preterist Max R. King, of Ohio; "For this schema to work, the traditional idea of resurrection must be replaced with a metaphorical idea of resurrection".[45]

Detractors of full preterism often refer to the school as hyper-preterism.[46] Many[quantify] evangelicals regard full preterism as outside of Christian orthodoxy.
===========================================
I am so confused on the many different forms of Peterism, I created a thread to discuss it, including a form of it called "hyper preterism"

Partial Preterism, Full Preterism vs Hyper Preterism

On another thread, there was this link mentioning F P vs H P.
I have never heard much of H P
Discuss.......

Christ, Israel, and the fall of Jerusalem

Discussion on Consistent Preterism and the Impact of AD70 as the Terminal Date (2015)

I think we need to distinguish between full preterism and hyper-preterism.
Full preterism is an optimistic eschatology.
Don’t think I can say the same thing about hyper-preterism, which has led some right out of Christianity

This is an interesting post. I didn't know there was such a thing as hyperpreterist!

 

[redleghunter]

For one thing, there was more to that post than numbers.

Another thing, the significance to numbers in the Bible isn't "numerology".

Indeed the judgment on Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple was fulfilled. Yet in every prophecy on the Coming of the Lord is deliverance for Jerusalem and Jews. 70AD was not this.

Zechariah was a post-exilic Prophet.

Zechariah 1: NASB

12Then the angel of the LORD said, “O LORD of hosts, how long will You have no compassion for Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, with which You have been indignant these seventy years?” 13The LORD answered the angel who was speaking with me with gracious words, comforting words. 14So the angel who was speaking with me said to me, “Proclaim, saying, ‘Thus says the LORD of hosts, “I am exceedingly jealous for Jerusalem and Zion. 15“But I am very angry with the nations who are at ease; for while I was only a little angry, they furthered the disaster.” 16‘Therefore thus says the LORD, “I will return to Jerusalem with compassion; My house will be built in it,” declares the LORD of hosts, “and a measuring line will be stretched over Jerusalem.”’ 17“Again, proclaim, saying, ‘Thus says the LORD of hosts, “My cities will again overflow with prosperity, and the LORD will again comfort Zion and again choose Jerusalem.”’”

Zechariah 12: NASB

1The burden of the word of the LORDconcerning Israel.
Thus declares the LORD who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him,

2“Behold, I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that causes reeling to all the peoples around; and when the siege is against Jerusalem, it will also be against Judah. 3“It will come about in that day that I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples; all who lift it will be severely injured. And all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it. 4“In that day,” declares the LORD, “I will strike every horse with bewilderment and his rider with madness. But I will watch over the house of Judah, while I strike every horse of the peoples with blindness. 5“Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘A strong support for us are the inhabitants of Jerusalem through the LORD of hosts, their God.’

6“In that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot among pieces of wood and a flaming torch among sheaves, so they will consume on the right hand and on the left all the surrounding peoples, while the inhabitants of Jerusalem again dwell on their own sites in Jerusalem. 7“The LORDalso will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem will not be magnified above Judah. 8“In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the one who is feeble among them in that day will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the LORDbefore them. 9“And in that day I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10“I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.11“In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddo.12“The land will mourn, every family by itself; the family of the house of David by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself and their wives by themselves; 13the family of the house of Levi by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the Shimeites by itself and their wives by themselves; 14all the families that remain, every family by itself and their wives by themselves.

And of course Zechariah 14:

Zechariah 14 NASB

These are prophecies of deliverance of Israel and Judah. Our Victorious King coming in Glory to bring the Kingdom to earth.

“Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.”

 

[redleghunter]

I notice dispensationalist/futurists tend to "hide" behind some of the Creeds, especially concerning their form of eschatology...........

I don’t adhere to Dispensational eschatology. Just the plain reading of prophecy as presented. See above. Jerusalem was not delivered in 70AD. It was destroyed.

CF allows Partial Preterists to view 70AD Jerusalem as fulfilled, including that great City, OC 70AD Jerusalem in Revelation 18 and 19 which is before the 1000yr period and final judgement

Yet in Revelation 19 Jerusalem is not destroyed but the nations. And Jesus did not come back in 70AD.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I don’t adhere to Dispensational eschatology. Just the plain reading of prophecy as presented. See above. Jerusalem was not delivered in 70AD. It was destroyed.
Yet in Revelation 19 Jerusalem is not destroyed but the nations. And Jesus did not come back in 70AD.

That is in Revelation 20 "Gog Magog]

Revelation 17 shows the armies of the 10 kings coming against Jerusalem at Armageddon and in Revelation 18 utterly destroys 70AD Jerusalem

Read this very carefully

Revelation 17:16
And the ten Horns which thou saw and the Beast, These shall be hating the harlot,
and They shall be making Her desolate<2049> and naked,
and the fleshes of Her they shall be eating<5315>
and shall be burning Her in fire.

Revelation 18:8
Thru this in one day shall be arriving<2240> Her blows,
death and sorrow and famine.
And in fire She shall be utterly burned<2618>,
that strong Lord the GOD, the One judging Her.
==================================
It is at the Gog-Magog battle that God destroys the armies coming against Jerusalem, the Devil is cast into the LoF and then the white throne judgement........

Revelation 20:
8 and he shall be coming out<1831> to deceive<4105 all the nations, that are in the four corners of the land -- the Gog and the Magog -- to gather them together/sunagagein<4863> into The Battle, of which the number of them as the sand of the sea;
9 They went up on the breadth of the land and surrounded the camp of the Saints and the beloved city.
And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
The Great White Throne Judgment

Rev 20:11
Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.

 

[redleghunter]

That is in Revelation 20

Revelation 17 shows the armies of the 10 kings coming against Jerusalem at Armageddon and in Revelation 18 utterly destroys 70AD Jerusalem

Read this very carefully

Revelation 17:16
And the ten Horns which thou saw and the Beast, These shall be hating the harlot,
and They shall be making Her desolate<2049> and naked,
and the fleshes of Her they shall be eating<5315>
and shall be burning Her in fire.

Revelation 18:8
Thru this in one day shall be arriving<2240> Her blows,
death and sorrow and famine.
And in fire She shall be utterly burned<2618>,
that strong Lord the GOD, the One judging Her.
==================================
It is at the Gog-Magog battle that God destroys the armies coming against Jerusalem, the Devil is cast into the LoF and then the white throne judgement........

Revelation 20:
8 and he shall be coming out<1831> to deceive<4105 all the nations, that are in the four corners of the land -- the Gog and the Magog -- to gather them together/sunagagein<4863> into The Battle, of which the number of them as the sand of the sea;
9 They went up on the breadth of the land and surrounded the camp of the Saints and the beloved city.
And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
The Great White Throne Judgment

Rev 20:11
Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.

Jerusalem is the harlot of Babylon?