Jesus Christ Truly God Truly man (human)

[redleghunter]

The full Athanasian Creed can be found here:

Athanasian Creed

Apostles Creed

Apostles' Creed

Nicene Creed

Nicene Creed

 

[devin553344]

There is no such thing as a half human. This argument I have heard before and am trying to understand what you think Jesus Christ of Nazareth is. Fully divine and fully human is the Christian world view. You are saying He is fully divine and half human? Please explain I really do want to understand.

Well if you believe in impeccability of Jesus as the Roman Catholic are reported to believe and also that Jesus had powers and proved those powers, then he was 'super human' not reduced to fully human.

 

[redleghunter]

Yes - He was fully human and fully God. I.e. - He was all the fullness of deity manifest in human flesh.

I do not, however, necessarily believe that the Son of God as a separate person to the Father was eternally existent.

It may be more appropriate to see the "Son" title as only becoming pertinent when God became fully human and functioned fully as one of mankind being reliant on God just as are all humans.

I.e. - God as Spirit is everywhere and eternally existent whereas God as Father and Son did not become existent until the incarnation.

I realize that we are able to talk about every conceivable concept here in the forum including heretical views concerning basic salvation by grace.

But we are not allowed to discuss the so called "Oneness" viewpoint over against the "Trinity" model.

So we'll have to leave it at that.

Yes the Irish Twins discuss with St Patrick the beliefs rejected by the church catholic.

 

[devin553344]

But scripture says that Christ was tempted in every way. He overcame sin because of his obedience and wisdom, not his lack of humanity.

You're kind of saying two things at once. I do believe Jesus is highly intelligent (well above mankind) and also wise. He has above human intellect. This is my personal belief as I was shown from the Holy Spirit and he testified of his impeccability also.

 

[Christ is Lord]

The belief that Jesus was not fully human is the Gnostic view. This is why John said that the test of whether a spirit was of God was that the person confessed that Jesus came to earth 'in the flesh", that is as a real and normal human being.

I’m glad that someone bought this up. Thank you.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Impeccability is a Christian teaching: Impeccability - Wikipedia

Impeccability is something Adam had for a while. And Eve too for a while. So while impeccability is indeed special it is not what makes Jesus special. What makes Him special is that he is a human being who is at the same time the person of the eternal Son of the Father, uncreated, eternal, begotten of the Father. As a consequence of that astounding thing he just happens to also be impeccable. But God can make impeccable people like Adam, Eve, Mary, and they are not anything near Jesus Christ. He was one in being with the Father, not merely sinless.

 

[redleghunter]

There is no such thing as a half human. This argument I have heard before and am trying to understand what you think Jesus Christ of Nazareth is. Fully divine and fully human is the Christian world view. You are saying He is fully divine and half human? Please explain I really do want to understand.

There was another poster some time back believed Jesus was human but like a skin suit. Meaning did not have a human soul and human will. I don’t think the poster you responded to believes that. He was cautious to make the point that “fully human” did not mean the ability to sin or born in sin. That’s how I understood his explanation.

So I presented the Scriptures where it says Jesus is human but without sin.

I believe understanding the doctrine of the Incarnation clears up a bit and posted that as well.

God bless

 

[☦Marius☦]

This is my personal belief as I was shown from the Holy Spirit and he testified of his impeccability also.

No offense, but don't you think it's rather proud to believe that the Holy Spirit showed you this view that most followers of Christ have rejected over two thousand years? Including most of the elders of the early church?

 

[Christ is Lord]

I think we need to stop using terms like “genetics” in describing the relationship between Jesus and the Father. We’re trying to understand an infinite being, yes human language like “son” and “father” are useful but they can only go so far. Terms like “genetics” can make it seem like Jesus somehow inherited traits from the father and that would make him a created being which also isn’t orthodox.

 

[chevyontheriver]

You should read the Nicene Creed. I posted it in post #32. Jesus is one with the Father, not an angel, but rather God.

Agreeing Jesus was God. At the same time the person of Jesus is God he is also human, like us in everything human except sin. The Nicene Creed was a reaction to the heresy of Arius, which said Jesus was a highly exalted creation, very close to God but not really God. At Nicea it was hammered out that the Son was made 'of the same stuff' as the Father (consubstantial) and thus fully God. The Athanasian Creed rounds out the Nicene Creed with the language of 'fully God' and 'fully human'.

If Jesus were not fully human he would not be a good savior for us humans. Jesus being fully human we can be saved bodily, our spirit, our soul, our will, our mind, the whole person. Being God, his sacrifice of obedience on the cross brings us that salvation.

 

[devin553344]

No offense, but don't you think it's rather proud to believe that the Holy Spirit showed you this view that most followers of Christ have rejected over two thousand years? Including most of the elders of the early church?

I believe as he produced godly Love and Peace that lasted for hours with the message. Galatians 5:22-23 But I'll keep it as a personal belief. I think my beliefs are more Catholic than anything now But I'm still just investigating the Catholic church.

 

[Christ is Lord]

I think we need to stop using terms like “genetics” in describing the relationship between Jesus and the Father. We’re trying to understand an infinite being, yes human language like “son” and “father” are useful but they can only go so far. Terms like “genetics” can make it seem like Jesus somehow inherited traits from the father and that would make him a created being which also isn’t orthodox.

This is why I love creeds. It limits our language and keeps us orthodox while allowing us to still explore and think well of our beliefs. Creeds are based on Biblical truths.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I believe as he produced godly Love and Peace that lasted for hours with the message. Galatians 5:22-23 But I'll keep it as a personal belief. I think my beliefs are more Catholic than anything now

Catholics did write the book on the Trinity. Actually lots of books. By folks like Thomas Aquinas. And that Athanasian Creed. If you find it challenging that is understandable. But in the end it is fundamental to a right soteriology to first get christology right. And the very core of it is Jesus God and Man, fully God and fully man, with no half measures in either direction.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Well if you believe in impeccability of Jesus as the Roman Catholic are reported to believe and also that Jesus had powers and proved those powers, then he was 'super human' not reduced to fully human.

Ok I will be honest here, I have this argument all the time with my Catholic best friend. But I did look it up in the RCC Catechism and I am happy to announce that they also believe in fully Divine and fully human.

CATECHISM OF THE Catholic Church
III. TRUE GOD AND TRUE MAN
469 The Church thus confesses that Jesus is inseparably true God and true man. He is truly the Son of God who, without ceasing to be God and Lord, became a man and our brother:

464 The unique and altogether singular event of the Incarnation of the Son of God does not mean that Jesus Christ is part God and part man, nor does it imply that he is the result of a confused mixture of the divine and the human. He became truly man while remaining truly God. Jesus Christ is true God and true man.During the first centuries, the Church had to defend and clarify this truth of faith against the heresies that falsified it.
465 The first heresies denied not so much Christ's divinity as his true humanity (Gnostic Docetism). From apostolic times the Christian faith has insisted on the true incarnation of God's Son "come in the flesh".87 But already in the third century, the Church in a council at Antioch had to affirm against Paul of Samosata that Jesus Christ is Son of God by nature and not by adoption. The first ecumenical council of Nicaea in 325 confessed in its Creed that the Son of God is "begotten, not made, of the same substance (homoousios) as the Father", and condemned Arius, who had affirmed that the Son of God "came to be from things that were not" and that he was "from another substance" than that of the Father.88
466 The Nestorian heresy regarded Christ as a human person joined to the divine person of God's Son. Opposing this heresy, St. Cyril of Alexandria and the third ecumenical council, at Ephesus in 431, confessed "that the Word, uniting to himself in his person the flesh animated by a rational soul, became man."89 Christ's humanity has no other subject than the divine person of the Son of God, who assumed it and made it his own, from his conception. For this reason the Council of Ephesus proclaimed in 431 that Mary truly became the Mother of God by the human conception of the Son of God in her womb: "Mother of God, not that the nature of the Word or his divinity received the beginning of its existence from the holy Virgin, but that, since the holy body, animated by a rational soul, which the Word of God united to himself according to the hypostasis, was born from her, the Word is said to be born according to the flesh."90
467 The Monophysites affirmed that the human nature had ceased to exist as such in Christ when the divine person of God's Son assumed it. Faced with this heresy, the fourth ecumenical council, at Chalcedon in 451, confessed:
Following the holy Fathers, we unanimously teach and confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ: the same perfect in divinity and perfect in humanity, the same truly God and truly man, composed of rational soul and body; consubstantial with the Father as to his divinity and consubstantial with us as to his humanity; "like us in all things but sin". He was begotten from the Father before all ages as to his divinity and in these last days, for us and for our salvation, was born as to his humanity of the virgin Mary, the Mother of God.91
We confess that one and the same Christ, Lord, and only-begotten Son, is to be acknowledged in two natures without confusion, change, division or separation. The distinction between the natures was never abolished by their union, but rather the character proper to each of the two natures was preserved as they came together in one person (prosopon) and one hypostasis.92

468 After the Council of Chalcedon, some made of Christ's human nature a kind of personal subject. Against them, the fifth ecumenical council, at Constantinople in 553, confessed that "there is but one hypostasis [or person], which is our Lord Jesus Christ, one of the Trinity."93 Thus everything in Christ's human nature is to be attributed to his divine person as its proper subject, not only his miracles but also his sufferings and even his death: "He who was crucified in the flesh, our Lord Jesus Christ, is true God, Lord of glory, and one of the Holy Trinity."94

469 The Church thus confesses that Jesus is inseparably true God and true man. He is truly the Son of God who, without ceasing to be God and Lord, became a man and our brother:

 

[devin553344]

Catholics did write the book on the Trinity. Actually lots of books. By folks like Thomas Aquinas. And that Athanasian Creed. If you find it challenging that is understandable. But in the end it is fundamental to a right soteriology to first get christology right. And the very core of it is Jesus God and Man, fully God and fully man, with no half measures in either direction.

OK so looking at it your way, me being fully human, Jesus and I are no different in the human aspect in your view?

 

[redleghunter]

OK so looking at it your way, me being fully human, Jesus and I are no different in the human aspect in your view?

Except since He was not fathered by a human Jesus was without sin.

 

[Christ is Lord]

OK so looking at it your way, me being fully human, Jesus and I are no different in the human aspect in your view?

Jesus also didn’t have a sin nature.

 

[devin553344]

Ok I will be honest here, I have this argument all the time with my Catholic best friend. But I did look it up in the RCC Catechism and I am happy to announce that they also believe in fully Divine and fully human.

CATECHISM OF THE Catholic Church
III. TRUE GOD AND TRUE MAN
469 The Church thus confesses that Jesus is inseparably true God and true man. He is truly the Son of God who, without ceasing to be God and Lord, became a man and our brother:

464 The unique and altogether singular event of the Incarnation of the Son of God does not mean that Jesus Christ is part God and part man, nor does it imply that he is the result of a confused mixture of the divine and the human. He became truly man while remaining truly God. Jesus Christ is true God and true man.During the first centuries, the Church had to defend and clarify this truth of faith against the heresies that falsified it.
465 The first heresies denied not so much Christ's divinity as his true humanity (Gnostic Docetism). From apostolic times the Christian faith has insisted on the true incarnation of God's Son "come in the flesh".87 But already in the third century, the Church in a council at Antioch had to affirm against Paul of Samosata that Jesus Christ is Son of God by nature and not by adoption. The first ecumenical council of Nicaea in 325 confessed in its Creed that the Son of God is "begotten, not made, of the same substance (homoousios) as the Father", and condemned Arius, who had affirmed that the Son of God "came to be from things that were not" and that he was "from another substance" than that of the Father.88
466 The Nestorian heresy regarded Christ as a human person joined to the divine person of God's Son. Opposing this heresy, St. Cyril of Alexandria and the third ecumenical council, at Ephesus in 431, confessed "that the Word, uniting to himself in his person the flesh animated by a rational soul, became man."89 Christ's humanity has no other subject than the divine person of the Son of God, who assumed it and made it his own, from his conception. For this reason the Council of Ephesus proclaimed in 431 that Mary truly became the Mother of God by the human conception of the Son of God in her womb: "Mother of God, not that the nature of the Word or his divinity received the beginning of its existence from the holy Virgin, but that, since the holy body, animated by a rational soul, which the Word of God united to himself according to the hypostasis, was born from her, the Word is said to be born according to the flesh."90
467 The Monophysites affirmed that the human nature had ceased to exist as such in Christ when the divine person of God's Son assumed it. Faced with this heresy, the fourth ecumenical council, at Chalcedon in 451, confessed:
Following the holy Fathers, we unanimously teach and confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ: the same perfect in divinity and perfect in humanity, the same truly God and truly man, composed of rational soul and body; consubstantial with the Father as to his divinity and consubstantial with us as to his humanity; "like us in all things but sin". He was begotten from the Father before all ages as to his divinity and in these last days, for us and for our salvation, was born as to his humanity of the virgin Mary, the Mother of God.91
We confess that one and the same Christ, Lord, and only-begotten Son, is to be acknowledged in two natures without confusion, change, division or separation. The distinction between the natures was never abolished by their union, but rather the character proper to each of the two natures was preserved as they came together in one person (prosopon) and one hypostasis.92

468 After the Council of Chalcedon, some made of Christ's human nature a kind of personal subject. Against them, the fifth ecumenical council, at Constantinople in 553, confessed that "there is but one hypostasis [or person], which is our Lord Jesus Christ, one of the Trinity."93 Thus everything in Christ's human nature is to be attributed to his divine person as its proper subject, not only his miracles but also his sufferings and even his death: "He who was crucified in the flesh, our Lord Jesus Christ, is true God, Lord of glory, and one of the Holy Trinity."94

469 The Church thus confesses that Jesus is inseparably true God and true man. He is truly the Son of God who, without ceasing to be God and Lord, became a man and our brother:

Thanks for digging that up for me. I wasn't aware that was a Catholic belief.

 

[devin553344]

Jesus also didn’t have a sin nature.

Does that sin nature come from our bodies or our spirits? We have bodies like Jesus.

 

[☦Marius☦]

I believe as he produced godly Love and Peace that lasted for hours with the message. Galatians 5:22-23 But I'll keep it as a personal belief. I think my beliefs are more Catholic than anything now But I'm still just investigating the Catholic church.

Its always comforting to know that all these things have been hashed out through church Councils where hundreds of Bishops, monks, and theologians all looked at scripture and the early church writings to try to determine what was most biblical. That's why I am orthodox - the church of the Councils. I think the Holy Spirit works through the church and that includes doctrine. You'll notice even the Apostles held councils rather then just holding to their own personal ideas. Peter had to give up his belief in gentile circumcision. I think that was what they left us in the way of deciding doctrine. "it seemed good to us and to the Holy Spirit"