Jesus Christ Truly God Truly man (human)

[redleghunter]

Poll up. If no explain your view.

I’m setting this thread up to hear the non orthodox positions. I know they are out there because in General Theology we see them but never explained. Now is your chance.

I also have encountered posters from historically orthodox (little o) denominations which have some doubts but hold to the creeds. Would like to hear why there are doubts.

Thanks.

 

[devin553344]

Jesus the Christ is God and was always impeccable and incapable of sin. He's not fully human, if he was he would have sinned like all the other humans.

 

[redleghunter]

Jesus the Christ is God and was always impeccable and incapable of sin. He's not fully human, if he was he would have sinned like all the other humans.

Your position is Jesus was only partially human?

 

[devin553344]

Your position is Jesus was only partially human?

Yes, he was created by God in Mary's womb. His spirit has always been God although he was created a perfect human body by God (no flaws or mutations found in regular humans which are probably caused from inbreeding from Adam and Eve's children and so on). Matthew 1:18

You have to ask yourself this: Why did the Holy Spirit have to create Jesus, why didn't God just put him in the body of a child born of someone else like the rest of us?

 

[redleghunter]

Yes, he was created by God in Mary's womb. His spirit has always been God although he was created a perfect human body by God (no flaws or mutations found in regular humans which are probably caused from inbreeding from Adam and Eve's children and so on). Matthew 1:18

You have to ask yourself this: Why did the Holy Spirit have to create Jesus, why didn't God just put him in the body of a child born of someone else like the rest of us?

Probably because God the Son was not created.

Is this something you agree with?

That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity,
neither blending their persons
nor dividing their essence.
For the person of the Father is a distinct person,
the person of the Son is another,
and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one,
their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.

What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has.
The Father is uncreated,
the Son is uncreated,
the Holy Spirit is uncreated.

The Father is immeasurable,
the Son is immeasurable,
the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.

The Father is eternal,
the Son is eternal,
the Holy Spirit is eternal.

And yet there are not three eternal beings;
there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings;
there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.

Similarly, the Father is almighty,
the Son is almighty,
the Holy Spirit is almighty.
Yet there are not three almighty beings;
there is but one almighty being.

Thus the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three gods;
there is but one God.

Thus the Father is Lord,
the Son is Lord,
the Holy Spirit is Lord.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord.

 

[devin553344]

Your position is Jesus was only partially human?

Another problem with calling Jesus fully human is the fact that he was able to produce so many miracles, something regular human's cannot do. This included resurrecting himself. Can humans resurrect themselves? Of course not. We rely on God for that.

 

[devin553344]

Probably because God the Son was not created.

Is this something you agree with?

That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity,
neither blending their persons
nor dividing their essence.
For the person of the Father is a distinct person,
the person of the Son is another,
and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one,
their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.

What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has.
The Father is uncreated,
the Son is uncreated,
the Holy Spirit is uncreated.

The Father is immeasurable,
the Son is immeasurable,
the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.

The Father is eternal,
the Son is eternal,
the Holy Spirit is eternal.

And yet there are not three eternal beings;
there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings;
there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.

Similarly, the Father is almighty,
the Son is almighty,
the Holy Spirit is almighty.
Yet there are not three almighty beings;
there is but one almighty being.

Thus the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three gods;
there is but one God.

Thus the Father is Lord,
the Son is Lord,
the Holy Spirit is Lord.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord.

By that creed we can surely say Jesus was impeccable and not fully human. Not capable of sin.

 

[redleghunter]

Another problem with calling Jesus fully human is the fact that he was able to produce so many miracles, something regular human's cannot do. This included resurrecting himself. Can humans resurrect themselves? Of course not. We rely on God for that.

Is your view that Jesus Christ was just a host body for God?

Or that Jesus Christ had a human nature, divine nature but was One Person. Meaning the two cannot be divided.

 

[redleghunter]

By that creed we can surely say Jesus was impeccable and not fully human. Not capable of sin.

There’s more:

Now this is the true faith:

That we believe and confess
that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,
is both God and human, equally.

He is God from the essence of the Father,
begotten before time;
and he is human from the essence of his mother,
born in time;
completely God, completely human,
with a rational soul and human flesh;
equal to the Father as regards divinity,
less than the Father as regards humanity.

Although he is God and human,
yet Christ is not two, but one.
He is one, however,
not by his divinity being turned into flesh,
but by God's taking humanity to himself.
He is one,
certainly not by the blending of his essence,
but by the unity of his person.
For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh,
so too the one Christ is both God and human.

 

[devin553344]

Is your view that Jesus Christ was just a host body for God?

Or that Jesus Christ had a human nature, divine nature but was One Person. Meaning the two cannot be divided.

I think I would need scripture to back up any view regarding that. We do know from Scripture that man was created in the image of God: Genesis 1:27. And we also know Jesus was in the Form of God: Philippians 2:5-6

 

[redleghunter]

I think I would need scripture to back up any view regarding that. We do know from Scripture that man was created in the image of God: Genesis 1:27. And we also know Jesus was in the Form of God: Philippians 2:5-6

What do you believe “Form of God” means?

 

[devin553344]

There’s more:

Now this is the true faith:

That we believe and confess
that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,
is both God and human, equally.

He is God from the essence of the Father,
begotten before time;
and he is human from the essence of his mother,
born in time;
completely God, completely human,
with a rational soul and human flesh;
equal to the Father as regards divinity,
less than the Father as regards humanity.

Although he is God and human,
yet Christ is not two, but one.
He is one, however,
not by his divinity being turned into flesh,
but by God's taking humanity to himself.
He is one,
certainly not by the blending of his essence,
but by the unity of his person.
For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh,
so too the one Christ is both God and human.

I go by the Nicene creed. I'm still new to Christianity and unfamiliar with what you're quoting. Jesus was the only begotten of the Father: The Nicene creed indicates Jesus was made (created).

 

[devin553344]

What do you believe “Form of God” means?

It is different than image, as he thought it was not robbery to be equal with God. For humans it would be a terrible sin, that of the son of perdition.

 

[devin553344]

What do you believe “Form of God” means?

The definition of form is sufficient: "a particular way in which a thing exists or appears; a manifestation."

 

[redleghunter]

I think I would need scripture to back up any view regarding that.

That Jesus Christ the Divine Logos is truly God and truly man?

Therefore, it is the right faith that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is at the same time both God and man.

Matthew 1:23; 3:17, 10:32-33, 17:5
Luke 2:11
John 1:14, 3:18, 6:40, 8:58
Acts of the Apostles 13:38
Romans 10:9
Galatians 4:4
Philippians 2:5-11
Colossians 2:9, 3:17
1 Timothy 2:5-6, 3:16
Hebrews 5:5
1 Peter 3:15
2 Peter 1:17

 

[redleghunter]

The definition of form is sufficient: "a particular way in which a thing exists or appears; a manifestation."

Colossians 2:9 may clear that up a bit.

 

[devin553344]

That Jesus Christ the Divine Logos is truly God and truly man?

Therefore, it is the right faith that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is at the same time both God and man.

Matthew 1:23; 3:17, 10:32-33, 17:5
Luke 2:11
John 1:14, 3:18, 6:40, 8:58
Acts of the Apostles 13:38
Romans 10:9
Galatians 4:4
Philippians 2:5-11
Colossians 2:9, 3:17
1 Timothy 2:5-6, 3:16
Hebrews 5:5
1 Peter 3:15
2 Peter 1:17

Well wording is a bit tricky here, while yes he had a "perfect" human body he is also God and impeccable. It is his nature to not sin, and he can't go against his nature, therefore he was not like us. I think that's where the confusion is coming from. He was human but also not like us humans. So you can't say he was fully human. That does not honor him as God.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The belief that Jesus was not fully human is the Gnostic view. This is why John said that the test of whether a spirit was of God was that the person confessed that Jesus came to earth 'in the flesh", that is as a real and normal human being.

 

[devin553344]

Are there divine human beings on earth? No. Jesus was probably human but a divine one.

I'm not arguing that Jesus was not human, but I would not use the term fully human, to me that is blasphemy.

 

[redleghunter]

I go by the Nicene creed. I'm still new to Christianity and unfamiliar with what you're quoting. Jesus was the only begotten of the Father: The Nicene creed indicates Jesus was made (created).

Understand. As new to Christianity, what I posted is from the Athanasius Creed which the Nicene Creed is based on.

What St Athanasius was explaining was the Person of Christ and the Incarnation.

What you may be chipping away at is coming to an understanding of the Incarnation of the Divine Logos, God the Son Who is eternal before the foundations of the earth.

The Incarnation of the Son of God is the terminology used to describe what happened when the second person of the Trinity, the eternal Son of God, "became flesh" as he was miraculously conceived in the womb of the Virgin Mary according to the Bible. In the incarnation, the divine nature of the Son was perfectly united with human nature in one divine Person. This person, Jesus Christ, was both "truly God and truly man."

Multimedia

• Christ's Incarnation (MP3), by D. A. Carson

Importance of the doctrine
In the early Christian era many divisions broke out concerning the true nature of Christ. Christians believed that He was the Son of God, but how was he both Son of God and truly man?

These disputes gave birth to certain heresies, the most serious of which were the Gnostic heresy, which stated that Jesus only appeared to be a true man; the Arian heresy, which taught that Jesus was a created being, less than God; and the Nestorian heresy, which implied that the Son of God, and the man, Jesus, shared the same body but retained two separate personhoods.

The final definitions of the incarnation and the nature of Jesus were made by the early church at the Council of Ephesus (431) and the Council of Chalcedon (451). These councils declared that Jesus was both fully God, begotten from the Father; and fully man, taking His flesh and human nature from the Virgin Mary. These two natures, human and divine, were hypostaticallyunited into the one personhood of Jesus Christ.

https://www.theopedia.com/incarnation-of-the-son-of-god