God loves everyone?

BNR32FAN

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for this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who WILL HAVE A-L-L M-E-N TO BE SAVED, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

That’s not what Paul said friend.

“This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Universalism contradicts these passages of scripture my friend.

“"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:21‬ ‭NASB‬‬

If at anytime everyone enters the kingdom of heaven then this statement is incorrect.

“"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭12:31‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:10‬ ‭NASB‬‬

If at anytime blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is forgiven then these statements are incorrect.
 
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BNR32FAN

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So what happens to the hundreds of billion souls that have died since Adam and Eve?

We don’t know for sure. The scriptures were written after that time so the instructions for salvation during that time period were not really important to understand at the later time when the scriptures were actually written. God had only made a covenant with Noah and his family. No one else was included in that covenant. So the instructions for salvation could’ve been different if salvation was even an option for those people. God had never promised anyone eternal life in heaven before the New Covenant. Even in the Old Covenant eternal life was not promised by God. He promised them prosperity in this world not eternal life in heaven.
 
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Hammster

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How does that not contradict the doctrine of total depravity?

Total depravity (also called radical corruptionor pervasive depravity) is a Christian theologicaldoctrine derived from the concept of original sin. It is the teaching that, as a consequence of the Fall of Man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin as a result of their fallen nature and, apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God, refrain from evil, or accept the gift of salvation as it is offered.
I would say unwilling, not unable. There’s no affection in him towards God that would make him want to repent. That’s why we must be born again.

Your theology has no answer for that, except your vague “God does something”.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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LittleLambofJesus said:
for this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who WILL HAVE A-L-L M-E-N TO BE SAVED, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
That’s not what Paul said friend.
“This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭NASB‬‬
Universalism contradicts these passages of scripture my friend.

“"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:21‬ ‭NASB‬‬

If at anytime everyone enters the kingdom of heaven then this statement is incorrect.

“"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭12:31‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:10‬ ‭NASB‬‬

If at anytime blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is forgiven then these statements are incorrect.
I suppose that depends on which Bible version one uses friend.
Let's look at it

King James Bible
Who will have
all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Douay-Rheims Bible
Who will have
all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Young's Literal Translation
who doth will
all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;

Greek and Hebrew Reader Online

4 ὃς πάντας ἀνθρώπους θέλει σωθῆναι καὶ εἰς ἐπίγνωσιν ἀληθείας ἐλθεῖν.

G2309 (NKJV)
G2309 θέλω (thelō), occurs 213 times in 201 verses

2309. thelo thel'-o or ethelo eth-el'-o, in certain tenses theleo thel-eh'-o, and etheleo eth-el-eh'-o, which are otherwise obsolete apparently strengthened from the alternate form of 138;
to determine (as an active option from subjective impulse; whereas 1014 properly denotes rather a passive acquiescence in objective considerations), i.e. choose or prefer (literally or figuratively); by implication, to wish, i.e. be inclined to (sometimes adverbially, gladly); impersonally for the future tense, to be about to; by Hebraism, to delight in:--desire, be disposed (forward), intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, - ling(-ly)).
===================
1 Timothy 2:4 Commentaries biblehub

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
4. who will have] The exact rendering is that of R.V. who willeth that all men should he saved—not the stronger word bouletai, ‘desireth,’ with a definite purpose. Chrysostom’s comment is “if He willed to save all, do thou will it also; and if thou willest, pray for it”: and Theod. Mops, in the Latin translation “evidens est quoniam omnes vult salvari, quia et omnes tuetur, quia est omnium Dominus.”
Thus the Greek fathers accepted St Paul’s words in their prima facie sense.

The Latin fathers seek to guard their application; and St Augustine actually says “by ‘all’ understand ‘all the predestined,’ because men of all sorts are among them.” The phrase is not “willeth to save all,” which would have been very near to universalism; but there is implied “the human acceptance of offered salvation on which even God’s predestination is contingent” Alford.
be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth] Notice the order of the words; salvation is according to the N. T. usage, past, present and future.
============
Bengel's Gnomen
1 Timothy 2:4. Πάντας) all, not merely a part, much less a very small part; 1 Timothy 2:3, note.—ἀνθρώπους, men) lost in themselves.—θέλει, [‘wills’] wishes) in serious earnestness of wish: ibid.—σωθῆναι, to be saved) This is treated of, at 1 Timothy 2:5-6.—Καὶ εἰς, and unto) This is treated of, at 1 Timothy 2:6-7.—ἀληθείας) of saving truth.—ἐλθεῖν, to come) They are not forced.
=====================
Pulpit Commentary
Verse 4. - Willeth that all men should be saved for will have all men to be saved, A.V.; come to for to come unto, A.V. All men, etc.; to show that it is in accordance with God's will to pray for "all men" (ver. 1). (For the doctrinal statement, comp. ver. 6; Titus 2:11; 2 Peter 3:9, etc.)
==========
Vincent's Word Studies
Who will have all men to be saved
(ὃς πάντας ἀνθρώπους θέλει σωθῆναι)
Lit, who willeth all men, etc. As who, or seeing that he, giving the ground of the previous statement. Prayer to God for all is acceptable to him, because he wills the salvation of all. Θέλει willeth, marking a determinate purpose.

Come to the knowledge of the truth (εἰς ἐπίγνωσιν ἀληθείας ἐλθεῖν)

The phrase only here and 2 Timothy 3:7. Ἑπίγνωσις is a favorite Pauline word. See on Romans 3:20; see on Colossians 1:9; see on 1 Timothy 2:4; see on 1 Timothy 4:3. It signifies advanced or full knowledge. The difference between the simple γνῶσις and the compound word is illustrated in Romans 1:21, Romans 1:28, and 1 Corinthians 13:12. In N.T. always of the knowledge of things ethical or divine, and never ascribed to God. For ἀλήθεια truth, see on sound doctrine, 1 Timothy 1:10. It appears 14 times in the Pastorals, and always without a defining genitive. So, often in Paul, but several times with a defining genitive, as truth of God, of Christ, of the gospel.
 
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renniks

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So what happens to the hundreds of billion souls that have died since Adam and Eve?

The Restitution Of All Things

Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

God Will Have All Men Be Saved

On this earth there are more than seven billion people! The most populous lands are China, India, and other parts of Asia, and in spite of missionaries from the West, actually more than half of all people on the earth have never so much as heard the ONLY NAME BY WHICH MEN MAY BE SAVED - the name of JESUS CHRIST! For your Bible says....... "there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12). This means that billions of people here on this earth have lived, and died, without having known anything about God's provision of salvation - without saving knowledge - neither having heard the only name by which men may be saved! Now think what that means. If all unsaved are eternally lost, then more than HALF the people who have ever lived on this earth have been consigned to eternal hell without ever having been given so much as a chance to escape it!

What about the millions of people living now in the modern nations of Red China where the Gospel is suppressed? Those people did not choose to be born into these godless nations. Are they lost forever because they never heard the true message of God's love in Christ? Is this their only day of salvation? Are they eternally doomed when they die? Will a just God and Saviour condemn to eternal damnation those people who died before the true Gospel was ever brought to them? Is God about to "shut the door" of mercy in their face?

We hear much today about evangelizing and saving the world in one generation. The preachers tell us this mission must be accomplished before Christ can return, and it must be done in this generation. We hear of glorious revival at home and abroad, of fresh missionary efforts in various directions, of great Crusades attended by tens and sometimes hundreds of thousands, of radio and television beamed by satellite to all the nations of earth, and of large sums being devoted to these endeavors: and we get the idea that adequate efforts are being made for the evangelization of the nations of the earth. It is estimated today that the world's population is over seven billion, and it is a fact that considerably more than one-half - nearly two-thirds - are still TOTALLY HEATHEN, and the remainder are mostly either followers of Mohammed or members of those great apostate Churches whose religion is practically a Christianized idolatry, and who can scarcely be said to hold or teach the Gospel of Christ.

And what about the multiplied billions who have gone before and never had any contact with the living Christ? Even if all the people of this one generation could be saved, it would be only a infinitesimal fraction of the people who have ever lived, and there would be no victory for God, for the devil would still possess the vast majority of mankind. It is estimated that about one hundred and sixty billions of human beings have lived on the earth in the six thousand years since Adam's creation. Of these, the very broadest estimate that could be made with reason would be that less than three billion were truly saints of God. This broad estimate would leave the immense aggregate of one hundred and fifty seven billions (157,000,000,000) who went to their graves without faith and hope in the only name given under heaven or among men whereby we must be saved. Indeed, the vast majority of these never knew or heard the name of Jesus, and could not believe in Him of whom they had not heard. What, I ask, has become of this vast multitude, of which figures give a wholly inadequate idea? What is, and is to be, their condition? Did God make no provision for these, whose condition and circumstances He must have foreseen? Or did He, from the foundation of the world, make a wretched and merciless provision for their hopeless, eternal torment, as many of His children claim? Can you really believe that is the plan by which the all-wise, all-merciful, loving God is working out His purpose here on earth? WHAT IS THE TRUTH?

Paul, in I Tim. 2:1-6, gives the answer! "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for ALL MEN ... for this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who WILL HAVE A-L-L M-E-N TO BE SAVED, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave Himself a RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time." This text is one of rare beauty. It is indeed like a precious diamond, the effulgence of whose radiance dazzles the mind. It is a drop of pure distilled essence, whose fragrance fills the rooms of the heart. It is a joy forevermore and a challenge to everyone who reads it with an understanding heart. It should be engraved upon the heart of every saint of God. There is so much depth to that text that I am afraid that we often do not even perceive it. It is like a beautiful sky of deep rich blue and one cannot even begin to grasp the vast depth above us. So it is with this passage!

The few laws that Scripture contains are rays of light revealing only small portions of God's will, much as the words I write are parts of the thought I wish to express. He who would know the complete will of God must look for the larger concept, discover the real objective. One main objective is given us in our text for this study: "I exhort therefore, that ... supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for ALL MEN ... for ... God our Saviour ... WILL HAVE A-L-L M-E-N TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." The will of God is so far beyond our usual thoughts that we simply cannot understand it unless the Spirit enlightens us. The eternal God WILL have all men to be saved! We need to ask God to fill our minds with this great truth, by the Holy Spirit.
And ignore every other verse that warns us that those who are still under sin are condemned? I can pick one verse out of the Bible twist its meaning, and say almost anything. There's a verse in the Psalms that says it's blessed to bash a newborn's head on a rock. Perhaps someone has built a whole theology around that verse? It sounds good to believe that everyone will go to heaven, but the truth is, for the unrepentant person heaven would be hell. I do believe there will be people from so-called heathen Nations who have followed the light they have been given and been saved. Jesus said those who seek will find.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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And ignore every other verse that warns us that those who are still under sin are condemned? I can pick one verse out of the Bible twist its meaning, and say almost anything. There's a verse in the Psalms that says it's blessed to bash a newborn's head on a rock. Perhaps someone has built a whole theology around that verse? It sounds good to believe that everyone will go to heaven, but the truth is, for the unrepentant person heaven would be hell. I do believe there will be people from so-called heathen Nations who have followed the light they have been given and been saved. Jesus said those who seek will find.
Praise the Lord.........

Isaiah 65:1 I have been inquired of by those who asked not, I have been found by those who sought Me not, I have said, 'Behold Me, behold Me,' Unto a nation not calling in My name.

Romans 10:20 And Isaiah boldly says: "I was found by those who did not seek Me; I revealed Myself to those who did not ask for Me."
It sounds good to believe that everyone will go to heaven, but the truth is, for the unrepentant person heaven would be hell.
Hell is scary.......

Please view my Rich Man and Lazarus thread concerning Gehenna/Hell/Lake of Fire"

Luke 16 "Rich Man/Poor Man" parable.....The most misunderstood/misinterpreted Parable in the NT?

Luke 16:
23 And in the hades lifting up his eyes existing in torments, he is seeing the Abraham from afar and Lazarus in the bosom of him.
24 And he sounding said "Father Abraham! be you merciful to-me! and send Lazarus! that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water and should be cooling down the tongue of me,
that I am being pained in this flame
".

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man, long used by mainstream Christian ministers to teach the "reality of hell," really has nothing to say about punishment or reward in the afterlife. Yeshua used this story, which fit the common misconception about life after death in his day, to show the fate that awaited the Jewish nation because of the unbelief and faithlessness which caused them to reject him as the Messiah.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I would say unwilling, not unable. There’s no affection in him towards God that would make him want to repent. That’s why we must be born again.

Your theology has no answer for that, except your vague “God does something”.

I never said “God does something” I said God enables us to repent but we must choose to do so if our own free will. Here’s an interesting passage of scripture where Jesus is explaining how to be saved to people so that they may be saved and yet they do not believe. He specifically says “I say these things so that you may believe” and yet they don’t believe. So Jesus is saying they are capable of believing, but they refuse to by their own choice.

“You have sent to John, and he has testified to the truth. But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved. He was the lamp that was burning and was shining and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light. But the testimony which I have is greater than the testimony of John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish-the very works that I do-testify about Me, that the Father has sent Me. And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form. You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent. You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
John 5:33-40 NASB
 
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Hammster

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I never said “God does something” I said God enables us to repent but we must choose to do so if our own free will. Here’s an interesting passage of scripture where Jesus is explaining how to be saved to people so that they may be saved and yet they do not believe. He specifically says “I say these things so that you may believe” and yet they don’t believe. So Jesus is saying they are capable of believing, but they refuse to by their own choice.

“You have sent to John, and he has testified to the truth. But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved. He was the lamp that was burning and was shining and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light. But the testimony which I have is greater than the testimony of John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish-the very works that I do-testify about Me, that the Father has sent Me. And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form. You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent. You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
John 5:33-40 NASB
These would be the ones Jesus describes here.

But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
— John 10:26
 
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Hammster

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I never said “God does something” I said God enables us to repent but we must choose to do so if our own free will.
Right. The vague “God does something”.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I suppose that depends on which Bible version one uses friend.
Let's look at it

King James Bible
Who will have
all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Douay-Rheims Bible
Who will have
all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Young's Literal Translation
who doth will
all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;

Greek and Hebrew Reader Online

4 ὃς πάντας ἀνθρώπους θέλει σωθῆναι καὶ εἰς ἐπίγνωσιν ἀληθείας ἐλθεῖν.

G2309 (NKJV)
G2309 θέλω (thelō), occurs 213 times in 201 verses

2309. thelo thel'-o or ethelo eth-el'-o, in certain tenses theleo thel-eh'-o, and etheleo eth-el-eh'-o, which are otherwise obsolete apparently strengthened from the alternate form of 138;
to determine (as an active option from subjective impulse; whereas 1014 properly denotes rather a passive acquiescence in objective considerations), i.e. choose or prefer (literally or figuratively); by implication, to wish, i.e. be inclined to (sometimes adverbially, gladly); impersonally for the future tense, to be about to; by Hebraism, to delight in:--desire, be disposed (forward), intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, - ling(-ly)).
===================
1 Timothy 2:4 Commentaries biblehub

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
4. who will have] The exact rendering is that of R.V. who willeth that all men should he saved—not the stronger word bouletai, ‘desireth,’ with a definite purpose. Chrysostom’s comment is “if He willed to save all, do thou will it also; and if thou willest, pray for it”: and Theod. Mops, in the Latin translation “evidens est quoniam omnes vult salvari, quia et omnes tuetur, quia est omnium Dominus.”
Thus the Greek fathers accepted St Paul’s words in their prima facie sense.

The Latin fathers seek to guard their application; and St Augustine actually says “by ‘all’ understand ‘all the predestined,’ because men of all sorts are among them.” The phrase is not “willeth to save all,” which would have been very near to universalism; but there is implied “the human acceptance of offered salvation on which even God’s predestination is contingent” Alford.
be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth] Notice the order of the words; salvation is according to the N. T. usage, past, present and future.
============
Bengel's Gnomen
1 Timothy 2:4. Πάντας) all, not merely a part, much less a very small part; 1 Timothy 2:3, note.—ἀνθρώπους, men) lost in themselves.—θέλει, [‘wills’] wishes) in serious earnestness of wish: ibid.—σωθῆναι, to be saved) This is treated of, at 1 Timothy 2:5-6.—Καὶ εἰς, and unto) This is treated of, at 1 Timothy 2:6-7.—ἀληθείας) of saving truth.—ἐλθεῖν, to come) They are not forced.
=====================
Pulpit Commentary
Verse 4. - Willeth that all men should be saved for will have all men to be saved, A.V.; come to for to come unto, A.V. All men, etc.; to show that it is in accordance with God's will to pray for "all men" (ver. 1). (For the doctrinal statement, comp. ver. 6; Titus 2:11; 2 Peter 3:9, etc.)
==========
Vincent's Word Studies
Who will have all men to be saved
(ὃς πάντας ἀνθρώπους θέλει σωθῆναι)
Lit, who willeth all men, etc. As who, or seeing that he, giving the ground of the previous statement. Prayer to God for all is acceptable to him, because he wills the salvation of all. Θέλει willeth, marking a determinate purpose.

Come to the knowledge of the truth (εἰς ἐπίγνωσιν ἀληθείας ἐλθεῖν)

The phrase only here and 2 Timothy 3:7. Ἑπίγνωσις is a favorite Pauline word. See on Romans 3:20; see on Colossians 1:9; see on 1 Timothy 2:4; see on 1 Timothy 4:3. It signifies advanced or full knowledge. The difference between the simple γνῶσις and the compound word is illustrated in Romans 1:21, Romans 1:28, and 1 Corinthians 13:12. In N.T. always of the knowledge of things ethical or divine, and never ascribed to God. For ἀλήθεια truth, see on sound doctrine, 1 Timothy 1:10. It appears 14 times in the Pastorals, and always without a defining genitive. So, often in Paul, but several times with a defining genitive, as truth of God, of Christ, of the gospel.

So how does all that line up with Matthew 7:21, Matthew 12:31, and Luke 12:10? How can all repent and be saved if not all will enter heaven and not all will be forgiven?
 
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BNR32FAN

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These would be the ones Jesus describes here.

But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
— John 10:26

Jesus’ sheep may be saved. Jesus says these people MAY BE SAVED yet they are not chosen by God because they don’t believe. You see the problem here is JESUS IS SPECIFICALLY SAYING THESE PEOPLE ARE CAPABLE OF BEING SAVED AND AS A RESULT OF THEIR OWN CHOICE THEY CHOOSE NOT TO BELIEVE. This is yet another clear indication that even those who are condemned were capable of being saved and as a result of their choice they condemned themselves.

“But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:34‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Now if Calvin was correct then these people were incapable of being saved because they didn’t believe and were not elected by God. So what Jesus told them would be a lie because He couldn’t say those things so that they may be saved if they were not elected by God. Another clear contradiction to Calvin’s doctrines and another clear indication of a synergistic cooperation with God for salvation.
 
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Hammster

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Jesus’ sheep may be saved. Jesus says these people MAY BE SAVED yet they are not chosen by God because they don’t believe. You see the problem here is JESUS IS SPECIFICALLY SAYING THESE PEOPLE ARE CAPABLE OF BEING SAVED AND AS A RESULT OF THEIR OWN CHOICE THEY CHOOSE NOT TO BELIEVE. This is yet another clear indication that even those who are condemned were capable of being saved and as a result of their choice they condemned themselves.

“But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:34‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Now if Calvin was correct then these people were incapable of being saved because they didn’t believe and were not elected by God. So what Jesus told them would be a lie because He couldn’t say those things so that they may be saved if they were not elected by God. Another clear contradiction to Calvin’s doctrines and another clear indication of a synergistic cooperation with God for salvation.
There’s no contradiction in the theology. Your misunderstanding, though, creates a contradiction in scripture. Does that concern you at all? Or is defeating Calvinism your ultimate objective?
 
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renniks

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Praise the Lord.........

Isaiah 65:1 I have been inquired of by those who asked not, I have been found by those who sought Me not, I have said, 'Behold Me, behold Me,' Unto a nation not calling in My name.

Romans 10:20 And Isaiah boldly says: "I was found by those who did not seek Me; I revealed Myself to those who did not ask for Me."
Hell is scary.......

Please view my Rich Man and Lazarus thread concerning Gehenna/Hell/Lake of Fire"

Luke 16 "Rich Man/Poor Man" parable.....The most misunderstood/misinterpreted Parable in the NT?

Luke 16:
23 And in the hades lifting up his eyes existing in torments, he is seeing the Abraham from afar and Lazarus in the bosom of him.
24 And he sounding said "Father Abraham! be you merciful to-me! and send Lazarus! that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water and should be cooling down the tongue of me,
that I am being pained in this flame
".

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man, long used by mainstream Christian ministers to teach the "reality of hell," really has nothing to say about punishment or reward in the afterlife. Yeshua used this story, which fit the common misconception about life after death in his day, to show the fate that awaited the Jewish nation because of the unbelief and faithlessness which caused them to reject him as the Messiah.
Those verses are referring to God sending the gospel to the gentiles. Jesus talks about hell more than any other person in the Bible... And makes it clear that there will be people that don't make it to heaven.
 
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BNR32FAN

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There’s no contradiction in the theology. Your misunderstanding, though, creates a contradiction in scripture. Does that concern you at all? Or is defeating Calvinism your ultimate objective?

There’s only two ways to see this. Either Jesus is speaking to people who are elected by God or He is speaking to people who are not elected by God. Either way it does not add up. If He is speaking to those who are elected by God then they have just thwarted irresistible grace by not believing. If He is speaking to those who are not elected by God then He has just lied to them by saying that He said those things to them so that they may be saved because according to Calvinism no one can be saved who is not elected by God. Either way this passage of scripture refutes Calvin’s doctrines.
 
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Hammster

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There’s only two ways to see this. Either Jesus is speaking to people who are elected by God or He is speaking to people who are not elected by God. Either way it does not add up. If He is speaking to those who are elected by God then they have just thwarted irresistible grace by not believing. If He is speaking to those who are not elected by God then He has just lied to them by saying that He said those things to them so that they may be saved because according to Calvinism no one can be saved who is not elected by God. Either way this passage of scripture refutes Calvin’s doctrines.
What if they were not regenerated at that moment, but would be later? I grew up hearing the gospel, but wasn’t saved until my twenties.
 
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BNR32FAN

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What if they were not regenerated at that moment, but would be later? I grew up hearing the gospel, but wasn’t saved until my twenties.

Ok I can see that as a possibility
 
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98cwitr

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Grace is the gift from God that enables us to have faith. Faith does not precede grace. God bestows grace on all who seek Him.


About Romans 9:15-16

Consider verse 22

“What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:22‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Paul has not finished his message in chapter 9.

“For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: " DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ' WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), or ' WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." But what does it say? " THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART "-that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, " WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for " WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, " HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!" However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, " LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?" So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; " THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD." But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says, "I WILL MAKE YOU JEALOUS BY THAT WHICH IS NOT A NATION, BY A NATION WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING WILL I ANGER YOU." And Isaiah is very bold and says, "I WAS FOUND BY THOSE WHO DID NOT SEEK ME, I BECAME MANIFEST TO THOSE WHO DID NOT ASK FOR ME." But as for Israel He says, " ALL THE DAY LONG I HAVE STRETCHED OUT MY HANDS TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE."”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:3-21‬ ‭NASB‬‬

God has stretched out His hands to a disobedient obstinate people. Is God stretching out His hands to people He hasn’t elected knowing that they are in total depravity and are incapable of repentance? That wouldn’t make any sense unless they were capable of repenting but were choosing of their own free will to be stubborn. But according to the doctrine of election a person cannot resist grace. So if Calvin was correct either these people have been elected by God and are residing grace or they have not been elected by God and yet God is expecting them to repent while they are incapable of doing so. Either way Calvin’s doctrines aren’t making any sense here.

Let be boil this down into a single question: Why would any man have the desire to seek God if his nature is in opposition to Him?
 
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