Who is responsible for our sanctification?

[Hammster]

If works were automatically a result of faith there would be no need for this message.

The problem is our flesh. We always battle against it. However, being in Christ, in the vine, we will produce fruit. That’s what vines do.

 

[Neogaia777]

Bless you friend, if you consider James’ tone in James 2:14-26 he is urging these brethren to do good works. He is explaining to them the importance of doing good works. If works were automatically a result of faith there would be no need for this message. Furthermore John 15:2 would be an impossibility. The Father could not cut off every branch in Christ that doesn’t bear fruit if all branches who are in Christ cannot fail to bear fruit. A person could not fail to abide in Christ if they are incapable of resisting His influence. As Paul stated we are capable of grieving the Holy Spirit. Take for example Paul’s statement in Romans 12:1-2

“Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭12:1-2‬ ‭NASB‬‬

How does this statement fit into the doctrines of total deprivity and irresistible grace? Paul is urging the brethren to conduct themselves in godly manner. Now if these brethren were not saved and still in their sinful nature they would be incapable of conducting themselves in a godly manner and according to what your saying, which is basically similar to irresistible grace, these brethren would be incapable of conducting themselves in an ungodly manner. Paul is indicating, as so many others do in the scriptures, that every Christian is capable of conducting themselves in an ungodly manner. Here’s another indication.

“If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:12-13‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Here Paul includes even himself as being capable of denying Christ resulting in Christ denying him. Now some will misinterpret this to say that if we are faithless Christ is faithful to save us but that is not what Paul is saying. We cannot receive salvation without faith. What Paul is saying is that Christ is faithful to do what He said He would do if we deny Him.

“But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10:33‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Now of course this means if we deny Him without repentance. Peter denied Christ 3 times and was not denied before The Father because he repented. Some will say that Peter never repented because the scriptures do not say so. But the scriptures actually do say so by his actions throughout his life afterwards. He devoted his life to serving God, bearing fruit, and loving others, even dying a martyr’s death.

We have to think about the implications of the many passages of scripture that give warning to everyone about living an ungodly lifestyle which results in not entering the kingdom of heaven.

When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.


Galatians 5:19-21


Even now the ax of God’s judgment is poised, ready to sever the roots of the trees. Yes, every tree that does not produce good fruit will be chopped down and thrown into the fire.


Matthew 3:10

This next verse is spoken to children of God who are undoubtedly saved according to Paul’s statements about them in Ephesians 2.

Let there be no sexual immorality, impurity, or greed among you. Such sins have no place among God’s people. Obscene stories, foolish talk, and coarse jokes—these are not for you. Instead, let there be thankfulness to God. You can be sure that no immoral, impure, or greedy person will inherit the Kingdom of Christ and of God. For a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world. Don’t be fooled by those who try to excuse these sins, for the anger of God will fall on all who disobey him.


Ephesians 5:3-6

The faithful servant of the master is referring to a saved believer of Christ.

A faithful, sensible servant is one to whom the master can give the responsibility of managing his other household servants and feeding them. If the master returns and finds that the servant has done a good job, there will be a reward. I tell you the truth, the master will put that servant in charge of all he owns. But what if the servant is evil and thinks, ‘My master won’t be back for a while,’ and he begins beating the other servants, partying, and getting drunk? The master will return unannounced and unexpected, and he will cut the servant to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Matthew 24:45-51

All of these verses are directed to believers. They cannot be directed to unbelievers because unbelievers will not enter heaven because of their unbelief. So even if they were capable of refraining from all these sins they would still not be capable of entering the kingdom of heaven because of their unbelief. These messages are for believers not unbelievers. The scriptures are full of warnings to believers. If irresistible grace were true then there would be no point of any warnings about how to conduct ourselves in the scriptures other than believe and have faith. These warnings would be warning believers of doing things that according to the doctrine of irresistible grace are impossible for them to do. We always have a choice.

Works of the Law based Salvationism cannot save anyone, period...

And, yes, if you do have a true saving faith, it will be evidenced by your good works, but that is much different from works of the Law, which cannot save, ever, and actually cause you to walk in and after the flesh that is against the Spirit, etc...

And, yes, if you have to a true saving faith, and not works of the Law, then it will evidenced by and irresistible urge to "truly obey" and do good works from the heart and from having the right kind of heart... And again, not works of the Law that cannot save, or truly convert the heart, and actually cause a walking after the flesh, incite works of the flesh, etc, etc, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Wordkeeper]

Works of the Law based Salvationism cannot save anyone, period...

And, yes, if you do have a true saving faith, it will be evidenced by your good works, but that is much different from works of the Law, which cannot save, ever, and actually cause you to walk in and after the flesh that is against the Spirit, etc...

And, yes, if you have to a true saving faith, and not works of the Law, then it will evidenced by and irresistible urge to "truly obey" and do good works from the heart and from having the right kind of heart... And again, not works of the Law that cannot save, or truly convert the heart, and actually cause a walking after the flesh, incite works of the flesh, etc, etc, etc...

God Bless!

What is your explanation of works of the law, what it means? What is your Scripture support for your explanation?

Works of the law is a hebraism, a Jewish way of talking about those things that make a Jew identifiable, circumcision, food laws, Sabbath observance, fasting etc . In other words, marks that make a person a child of Abraham. The Jews were using a literal reading of the Bible to demand that God honor the promise to Abraham to bless his descendants. They were fighting for entitlement, through a technicality . Still are.

Jew means the person who praises God, who is on God's side, His people. Who is a Jew? Abraham was a Jew before he even got circumcised.

Romans 4
10How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised;

Romans 2
13For it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the Law who will be declared righteous.
........

28For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The problem is our flesh. We always battle against it. However, being in Christ, in the vine, we will produce fruit. That’s what vines do.

If we remain in the vine. That’s what He said.

 

[Hammster]

If we remain in the vine. That’s what He said.

Believers bear fruit. And that is the responsibility of the Vinedresser. He prunes, not removed, fruit bearing branches. So if a branch isn’t producing fruit, it’s His fault.

Are you ready to blame God for not doing His job?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Works of the Law based Salvationism cannot save anyone, period...

And, yes, if you do have a true saving faith, it will be evidenced by your good works, but that is much different from works of the Law, which cannot save, ever, and actually cause you to walk in and after the flesh that is against the Spirit, etc...

And, yes, if you have to a true saving faith, and not works of the Law, then it will evidenced by and irresistible urge to "truly obey" and do good works from the heart and from having the right kind of heart... And again, not works of the Law that cannot save, or truly convert the heart, and actually cause a walking after the flesh, incite works of the flesh, etc, etc, etc...

God Bless!

I didn’t say anything about works of the law and I specifically said that works cannot save anyone. What I said was works are necessary to receive salvation. What is your interpretation of John 15:1-10? To be more specific what do you think John 15:2 and John 15:6 are saying?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Believers bear fruit. And that is the responsibility of the Vinedresser. He prunes, not removed, fruit bearing branches. So if a branch isn’t producing fruit, it’s His fault.

Are you ready to blame God for not doing His job?

Yes the branches in Christ that bear fruit are pruned and the branches in Christ that don’t bear fruit are cut off by The Father. You used a capital H in the word His. Are you saying it’s The Father’s fault that some branches in Christ don’t bear fruit?

 

[Hammster]

Yes the branches in Christ that bear fruit are pruned and the branches in Christ that don’t bear fruit are cut off by The Father. You used a capital H in the word His. Are you saying it’s The Father’s fault that some branches in Christ don’t bear fruit?

No, that’s the conclusion we have to draw from your misunderstanding of John 15.

In your theology (let me summarize) you have a Father that disowns His children; a Shepherd who loses sheep; and a Vinedresser who cannot seem to get all of His branches to bear fruit. So to stay saved, it’s dependent on children, sheep, and branches.

 

[Hammster]

I specifically said that works cannot save anyone. What I said was works are necessary to receive salvation.

That appears to be a contradiction.

 

[BNR32FAN]

No, that’s the conclusion we have to draw from your misunderstanding of John 15.

In your theology (let me summarize) you have a Father that disowns His children; a Shepherd who loses sheep; and a Vinedresser who cannot seem to get all of His branches to bear fruit. So to stay saved, it’s dependent on children, sheep, and branches.

Well we all know what happened to the wicked lazy servant in Matthew 25. Was it the master’s fault that the servant didn’t invest the talent? Are we to do nothing and expect salvation? It’s that type of attitude that condemned the goats also in Matthew 25.

 

[Hammster]

Well we all know what happened to the wicked lazy servant in Matthew 25. Was it the master’s fault that the servant didn’t invest the talent? Are we to do nothing and expect salvation? It’s that type of attitude that condemned the goats also in Matthew 25.

You just keep making it more and more obvious that you believe your good works are a result of your effort.

 

[rockytopva]

Sanctification is tough because everyone studied has a slightly different approach to it. John Bunyan's Methods of a full salvation... In which the witness of the Spirit is picked up at the Porter's House. And how I would teach the doctrine....

1. Salvation - As the Christian leaves the City of Destruction and makes his way to the Celestial City.
2. Sanctification - At the interpreter's house
3. The Witness of the Spirit - At the porter's house

The City of Destruction The place where evangelists set people on their journey to the Celestial City
The Slough of Despair This represents the mire that well intentioned religious people bring to the way
Legalities Mountain The enemy attempt to indoctrinate pilgrims with doctrine designed to inhibit spiritual light
Plain of Instruction The evangelist sets the pilgrim on the right direction from the “Mr. Worldly Wiseman”
The Wicket Gate The sinners prayer. Salvation.... The pilgrim now enters into the Lord’s country
The Interpreters House This is a time of instruction where caring people instruct and disciple. Sanctification.
Porters House The journey to a higher place where one receives the witness of the spirit.

And if the sanctification is picked up right... The Cross - If the discipleship at the Interpreters House is good, the burdens will drop at the sight of the cross. From the Pilgrims Progress....

NOW, I saw in my dream that the highway up which Christian was to go was fenced on either side with a wall that was called Salvation. Up this way, therefore, did burdened Christian run, but not without great difficulty, because of the load on his back.

He ran thus till he came to a place somewhat ascending; and upon that place stood a Cross, and a little below, in the bottom, a tomb. So I saw in my dream, that just as Christian came up with the cross, his burden loosed from off his shoulders, and fell from off his back, and began to tumble, and so continued to do till it came to the mouth of the tomb, where it fell in, and I saw it no more.

Then was Christian glad and lightsome, and said with a merry heart, "He hath given me rest by His sorrow, and life by His death." Then he stood still awhile to look and wonder; for it was very surprising to him that the sight of the cross should thus ease him of his burden. He looked, therefore, and looked again, even till the springs that were in his head sent the water down his cheeks. Now, as he stood looking and weeping, behold, three Shining Ones came to him, and saluted him with "Peace be to thee." So the first said to him, "Thy sins be forgiven thee;" the second stripped him of his rags, and clothed him

with a change of garments; the third also set a mark on his forehead, and gave him a roll with a seal upon it, which he bade him look on as he ran, and that he should give it in at the heavenly gate; so they went their way. Then Christian gave three leaps for joy, and went on, singing:

"Thus far did I come laden with my sin;
Nor could aught ease the grief that I was in,
Till I came hither; what a place is this!
Must here be the beginning of my bliss?
Must here the burden fall from off my back?
Must here the strings that bound it to me crack?
Blest cross! blest sepulchre! blest rather be
The Man that was there put to shame for me!"

Who then is responsible for getting us out of the world into a state of sanctification? The Apostle Paul claims....

My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you... - Galatians 4:19

In that case the Apostle Paul took the responsibility upon himself.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You just keep making it more and more obvious that you believe your good works are a result of your effort.

Nah, you just look for every way to twist what I say to it’s worst possible meaning is all. You know full well that I’m a synergist. Do you really think that is a true assessment of my beliefs from our many discussions or are you more concerned with discrediting me with deceptive tactics that you know are not true?

 

[rockytopva]

Sanctification is tough because everyone studied has a slightly different approach to it. John Bunyan's Methods of a full salvation... In which the witness of the Spirit is picked up at the Porter's House. And how I would teach the doctrine....

1. Salvation - As the Christian leaves the City of Destruction and makes his way to the Celestial City.
2. Sanctification - At the interpreter's house
3. The Witness of the Spirit - At the porter's house

The City of Destruction The place where evangelists set people on their journey to the Celestial City
The Slough of Despair This represents the mire that well intentioned religious people bring to the way
Legalities Mountain The enemy attempt to indoctrinate pilgrims with doctrine designed to inhibit spiritual light
Plain of Instruction The evangelist sets the pilgrim on the right direction from the “Mr. Worldly Wiseman”
The Wicket Gate The sinners prayer. Salvation.... The pilgrim now enters into the Lord’s country
The Interpreters House This is a time of instruction where caring people instruct and disciple. Sanctification.
Porters House The journey to a higher place where one receives the witness of the spirit.

And if the sanctification is picked up right... The Cross - If the discipleship at the Interpreters House is good, the burdens will drop at the sight of the cross. From the Pilgrims Progress....

NOW, I saw in my dream that the highway up which Christian was to go was fenced on either side with a wall that was called Salvation. Up this way, therefore, did burdened Christian run, but not without great difficulty, because of the load on his back.

He ran thus till he came to a place somewhat ascending; and upon that place stood a Cross, and a little below, in the bottom, a tomb. So I saw in my dream, that just as Christian came up with the cross, his burden loosed from off his shoulders, and fell from off his back, and began to tumble, and so continued to do till it came to the mouth of the tomb, where it fell in, and I saw it no more.

Then was Christian glad and lightsome, and said with a merry heart, "He hath given me rest by His sorrow, and life by His death." Then he stood still awhile to look and wonder; for it was very surprising to him that the sight of the cross should thus ease him of his burden. He looked, therefore, and looked again, even till the springs that were in his head sent the water down his cheeks. Now, as he stood looking and weeping, behold, three Shining Ones came to him, and saluted him with "Peace be to thee." So the first said to him, "Thy sins be forgiven thee;" the second stripped him of his rags, and clothed him

with a change of garments; the third also set a mark on his forehead, and gave him a roll with a seal upon it, which he bade him look on as he ran, and that he should give it in at the heavenly gate; so they went their way. Then Christian gave three leaps for joy, and went on, singing:

"Thus far did I come laden with my sin;
Nor could aught ease the grief that I was in,
Till I came hither; what a place is this!
Must here be the beginning of my bliss?
Must here the burden fall from off my back?
Must here the strings that bound it to me crack?
Blest cross! blest sepulchre! blest rather be
The Man that was there put to shame for me!"

Who then is responsible for getting us out of the world into a state of sanctification? The Apostle Paul claims....

My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you... - Galatians 4:19

In that case the Apostle Paul took the responsibility upon himself.

I believe once this occurs....

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. - 2 Corinthians 5:17

Then the sanctification can be claimed. The old timers in my movement would encourage folks to revival. If they could not sense the Christ in the experience they would tell you, “You don’t have it yet! Come back tomorrow night!” And smile a little as they said it.

 

[Hammster]

Nah, you just look for every way to twist what I say to it’s worst possible meaning is all. You know full well that I’m a synergist. Do you really think that is a true assessment of my beliefs from our many discussions or are you more concerned with discrediting me with deceptive tactics that you know are not true?

I do think it’s a true assessment of your beliefs. You are constantly stating that man is chiefly responsible for his standing with God, and you constantly neglect the fact that God is Father, Shepherd, Vinedresser. So in your theology, the sin isn’t obedient to his Father out of love, but duty to stay saved.

“works are necessary to receive salvation.”

 

[BNR32FAN]

I do think it’s a true assessment of your beliefs. You are constantly stating that man is chiefly responsible for his standing with God, and you constantly neglect the fact that God is Father, Shepherd, Vinedresser. So in your theology, the sin isn’t obedient to his Father out of love, but duty to stay saved.

“works are necessary to receive salvation.”

Then why all the warnings about refraining from sin and telling believers to do good works if they have no choice in the matter? Paul is teaching that God works thru us but we must cooperate with His guidance from the Holy Spirit. Hence do not grieve the Holy Spirit.

 

[Hammster]

Who is responsible for our sanctification?

 

[Hammster]

Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
— 2 Corinthians 3:5-6

Paul always points to God as the source of any good that he does. See also Galatians 2:20.

 

[Hammster]

I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to the point of repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to the will of God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us.
— 2 Corinthians 7:9

More evidence that God is responsible for our sanctification.

 

[Sam91]

I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to the point of repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to the will of God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us.
— 2 Corinthians 7:9

More evidence that God is responsible for our sanctification.

I still don't like the word choice of 'responsible' btw. If another synonym was chosen I'd have been happier. T'is done. :/