But faith is incomplete without demonstration of loyalty as James teaches.No, it’s contrasted with faith. There’s no loyal response mentioned.
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But faith is incomplete without demonstration of loyalty as James teaches.No, it’s contrasted with faith. There’s no loyal response mentioned.
Well, since James doesn’t teach that, I’m not sure of your point.But faith is incomplete without demonstration of loyalty as James teaches.
Well, since James doesn’t teach that, I’m not sure of your point.
Except that’s what scripture teaches. It’s all by the grace of God.
I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”
— Galatians 2:21
Thanks. That makes my point much clearer.“What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, " AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.”
James 2:14-26 NASB
Seems to me that you are trying to counter an argument that I’ve not made. Have I ever said that we are free to sin?There’s a difference between keeping the law for justification (righteousness) and keeping it out of love for God. In Galatians Paul is telling them if they could be justified with God By keeping the law then Christ died for nothing. This doesn’t mean that the law is abolished and we are free to live a sinful life and as long as we believe we will be saved.
“For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one. Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.”
Romans 3:28-31 NASB
“What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?”
Romans 6:15-16 NASB
The very fact one holds to the doctrine that salvation and eternal life can be lost in Christ shows or gives proof that one believes keeping the law for justification. And by doing so they say Christ died for nothing. Grace is nowhere to be found in your doctrine of works righteousness. Christ guarantees no ones salvation according to this doctrineThere’s a difference between keeping the law for justification (righteousness) and keeping it out of love for God. In Galatians Paul is telling them if they could be justified with God By keeping the law then Christ died for nothing. This doesn’t mean that the law is abolished and we are free to live a sinful life and as long as we believe we will be saved.
“For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one. Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.”
Romans 3:28-31 NASB
“What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?”
Romans 6:15-16 NASB
Why is the Exodus event quoted extensively both in the OT and the NT? Why is the text saying these things were written for our warning? Why does the text say that when we hear His voice today we should not be like those in the wilderness?The very fact one holds to the doctrine that salvation and eternal life can be lost in Christ shows or gives proof that one believes keeping the law for justification. And by doing so they say Christ died for nothing. Grace is nowhere to be found in your doctrine of works righteousness. Christ guarantees no ones salvation according to this doctrine
Who is “they”?Is loving thy God works? What about loving thy neighbour? These were things we were told to do by our Saviour.
What about the grand commission?
Paul, himself, tell us to be slaves to righteousness. Those who say we have not to do works as an outpouring of our faith remind me of the parable of the ten virgins. They remind me of the slave who put his master's talent in the ground. It reminds me of Galatians 2:10.
I guess that because they have a grand view of election they do not need to feel the importance of being a witness of Christ through word and deed. I mean, why the urgency?
I sometimes wonder if they think like this:Your not saved if your not in the elect. Therefore, you are going to be saved anyway whether people busy living as faithful servents, living sacrifices or not. Therefore, what people see in them doesn't matter.
Well it does. Peter says we are to live lives without blemish in front of the gentler in order that God's name isn't sullied. I fear for the Christians who are so woefully misled and ignoring what Jesus told us to do. Why does Jesus promise (through the revelation of John) things to the churches if they persevere. It would not be classed as persevering if we had nothing to do at all in this. Also, rewarded? It wouldn't be a reward if we made no effort. Different words would be used. Gifted perhaps.
But we do need to act. We have been redeemed, washed, clothed in Christ. We have been empowered with His Spirit to live holy lives. Jesus was the Son of God, eternally secure, yet on earth He worked for His Father's kingdom. He taught, healed, and demonstrated that we are to forsake wealth and worldly things and strive for Him. We are to pick up our cross and follow Him. He does not say our job is just to believe and sit back. He says follow! That is an active verb. No we don't do it to deserve forgiveness or righteousness. We do it because He loved us first and now, as recipients of that love, we are to love others as we walk with Him.
Who is we? All of us are we.Who is “they”?
I agree with that.Who is we? All of us are we.
'They' are those who thing we can get away with sitting back, content in our salvation/election (which is prideful), and think that as long as they believe that is enough. They are like the Virgins who sat back instead of having the oil. How can we be in Him if we do not love those around us? How can we be in Him if we are not spurred to action?
However, that is such a short sighted view. The apostles had to endure hardship, in the OT Daniel, Abraham, Joshua, David, Esther, Nehemiah, Joseph, Elijah, Jonah, Elisha, Hosea, Moses etc.... the list is so so long ... Their faith all led to actions.
Well may I go further then. Those actions from faith are works of righteousness. The ones ordained by God, exemplified in Ephesians 2:10 for us to do.I agree with that.
Can you bear fruit apart from the vine? No. What’s required? Simply to be in the Vine. Then the fruit comes.Well may I go further then. Those actions from faith are works of righteousness. The ones ordained by God, exemplified in Ephesians 2:10 for us to do.
There is a problem when Christians go around misunderstanding the whole idea of 'works'. Most of us know our works do not merit salvation. However, our works are a necessary outpouring of that and to dispel that point, as people like to do on forums by arguing with each other, is harmful to people's (and reader's) walks. The people who are then content to rest easy on their belief without heeding James' reminder that faith without works is dead. You see, the Spirit within us prompts us to these works, through our compassion to others and our awe and grateful obedience to God.
However, the enemy (I am loathe to talk about him, I rarely do it) must relish the divisions over these topics and Calvin's doctrine... in fact man's doctrines because a lot of them cause problems. It leads us into stumbling.
To say though that we have no responsibility in our salvation, to me, can make Christian's lax. God does It, of course, but Jesus was sure to tell us that we were to act. The parable of the good Samaritan enters my head now. The religious folk walked past neglecting the injured person. Also brought to mind are the Pharisees, clinging to their law (doctrine) and entirely missing the point.
I added a very badly punctuated paragraph to my post to illustrate how works have benefited me. Not works of the law, but remembering God's directions for our life. The Spirit possibly brought to mind to love my enemy and I now know the blessing of doing that. It comes easier now to want to pray for those who try to wrong me. Such freedom in that. God did that, but if I hadn't have obeyed I doubt it would have happened yet. I don't know if I could have disobeyed in that moment but the cautious view is to remind people to obey. Scripture does! If we don't are we partly responsible for others stumbling? But if we do we might prevent someone sinning.Can you bear fruit apart from the vine? No. What’s required? Simply to be in the Vine. Then the fruit comes.
The argument isn’t whether we should work. It’s whether the work contributes to our righteousness. Some here think it does. Some think works are required to be sanctified. That’s opposite of the gospel, and I’ll fight against that. Not to win an argument, but to hopefully spare some the burden of thinking that they need to do things to stay saved.
If you believe you can lose it, then why haven’t you? What makes you better than those who have?I added a very badly punctuated paragraph to my post to illustrate how works have benefited me. Not works of the law, but remembering God's directions for our life. The Spirit possibly brought to mind to love my enemy and I now know the blessing of doing that. It comes easier now to want to pray for those who try to wrong me. Such freedom in that. God did that, but if I hadn't have obeyed I doubt it would have happened yet. I don't know if I could have disobeyed in that moment but the cautious view is to remind people to obey. Scripture does! If we don't are we partly responsible for others stumbling? But if we do we might prevent someone sinning.
I think the vast majority of Christian realise that God sanctifies us, but we have the responsibility to obey Him. Our disobedience, when we have His command written on our hearts and His Spirit guiding us is a deplorable thing. You see, this is where our theologies differ again. I believe we can lose our salvation because the Bible warns of it from Genesis right through to Revelation. Jesus' words to the Churches are under the new covenant and speak of it. He speaks of rewards and punishment showing us our contribution towards our eventual destination. He gave a remedy in Revelation 2 or 3 where He counsellors the to buy from Him refined by fire. We ask Him to strengthen our faith and desire for Him. You see those warnings are there to help us remain in Him.
By heeding His words in the Bible and feeling the loss of Peace in my spirit when I falter.If you believe you can lose it, then why haven’t you? What makes you better than those who have?
It’s not a snarky question. I’m really curious.
This part doesn’t quite jive with you thinking you can lose your salvation. If Jesus is both the Author AND finisher, what makes you think you can lose it? It really doesn’t make sense to me.He is the author and finisher of our faith as I quoted as my first response to this thread. God is also not the author of confusion. The Bible makes sense, man's doctrine not so.
It does to me. The same way the Philippians 2:12 says ' to work out your salvation with fear and trembling'. It isn't contradictory.This part doesn’t quite jive with you thinking you can lose your salvation. If Jesus is both the Author AND finisher, what makes you think you can lose it? It really doesn’t make sense to me.
You neglected to include the rest.It does to me. The same way the Philippians 2:12 says ' to work out your salvation with fear and trembling'. It isn't contradictory.