Who is responsible for our sanctification?

[Wordkeeper]

No, it’s contrasted with faith. There’s no loyal response mentioned.

But faith is incomplete without demonstration of loyalty as James teaches.

 

[Hammster]

But faith is incomplete without demonstration of loyalty as James teaches.

Well, since James doesn’t teach that, I’m not sure of your point.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Well, since James doesn’t teach that, I’m not sure of your point.

“What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, " AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:14-26‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

Except that’s what scripture teaches. It’s all by the grace of God.

I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”
— Galatians 2:21

There’s a difference between keeping the law for justification (righteousness) and keeping it out of love for God. In Galatians Paul is telling them if they could be justified with God By keeping the law then Christ died for nothing. This doesn’t mean that the law is abolished and we are free to live a sinful life and as long as we believe we will be saved.

“For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one. Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:28-31‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:15-16‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[Hammster]

“What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, " AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:14-26‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Thanks. That makes my point much clearer.

Context, context, context.

 

[Hammster]

There’s a difference between keeping the law for justification (righteousness) and keeping it out of love for God. In Galatians Paul is telling them if they could be justified with God By keeping the law then Christ died for nothing. This doesn’t mean that the law is abolished and we are free to live a sinful life and as long as we believe we will be saved.

“For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one. Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:28-31‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:15-16‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Seems to me that you are trying to counter an argument that I’ve not made. Have I ever said that we are free to sin?

 

[MDC]

There’s a difference between keeping the law for justification (righteousness) and keeping it out of love for God. In Galatians Paul is telling them if they could be justified with God By keeping the law then Christ died for nothing. This doesn’t mean that the law is abolished and we are free to live a sinful life and as long as we believe we will be saved.

“For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one. Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:28-31‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:15-16‬ ‭NASB‬‬

The very fact one holds to the doctrine that salvation and eternal life can be lost in Christ shows or gives proof that one believes keeping the law for justification. And by doing so they say Christ died for nothing. Grace is nowhere to be found in your doctrine of works righteousness. Christ guarantees no ones salvation according to this doctrine

 

[Wordkeeper]

The very fact one holds to the doctrine that salvation and eternal life can be lost in Christ shows or gives proof that one believes keeping the law for justification. And by doing so they say Christ died for nothing. Grace is nowhere to be found in your doctrine of works righteousness. Christ guarantees no ones salvation according to this doctrine

Why is the Exodus event quoted extensively both in the OT and the NT? Why is the text saying these things were written for our warning? Why does the text say that when we hear His voice today we should not be like those in the wilderness?

It's one thing to even hear with faith, when there is no price to pay, and then choke, when we have to count the cost.

The believers were being mocked by Paul in Galatians 2. For centuries, Jews had been prancing around with their incredibly detailed and sophisticated rituals (they asked for it and God gave it to them till it came out of their ears) and not even one faith building (that's what edifying means, something they needed when the crunch came) revelation was given. Then Peter preached the Gospel, a Man had layed down His life, and picked it up again, the greatest manifestation of God's amazing work, and on hearing with faith, loyalty, agreement, the Holy Spirit poured out things of heaven on a Gentile crowd!

And after this, the Galatians wanted to go back to fringes and tassles? It shows that incredibly stupid people existed even back then.

 

[Sam91]

Is loving thy God works? What about loving thy neighbour? These were things we were told to do by our Saviour.

What about the grand commission?

Paul, himself, tell us to be slaves to righteousness. Those who say we have not to do works as an outpouring of our faith remind me of the parable of the ten virgins. They remind me of the slave who put his master's talent in the ground. It reminds me of Galatians 2:10. [Edit: I meant ephesians 2:10 But Galatians 2:10 was an example of a duty so I'm leaving it there]

I guess that because they have a grand view of election they do not need to feel the importance of being a witness of Christ through word and deed. I mean, why the urgency?

I sometimes wonder if they think like this:Your not saved if your not in the elect. Therefore, you are going to be saved anyway whether people busy living as faithful servents, living sacrifices or not. Therefore, what people see in them doesn't matter.

Well it does. Peter says we are to live lives without blemish in front of the gentler in order that God's name isn't sullied. I fear for the Christians who are so woefully misled and ignoring what Jesus told us to do. Why does Jesus promise (through the revelation of John) things to the churches if they persevere. It would not be classed as persevering if we had nothing to do at all in this. Also, rewarded? It wouldn't be a reward if we made no effort. Different words would be used. Gifted perhaps.

But we do need to act. We have been redeemed, washed, clothed in Christ. We have been empowered with His Spirit to live holy lives. Jesus was the Son of God, eternally secure, yet on earth He worked for His Father's kingdom. He taught, healed, and demonstrated that we are to forsake wealth and worldly things and strive for Him. We are to pick up our cross and follow Him. He does not say our job is just to believe and sit back. He says follow! That is an active verb. No we don't do it to deserve forgiveness or righteousness. We do it because He loved us first and now, as recipients of that love, we are to love others as we walk with Him.

 

[Hammster]

Is loving thy God works? What about loving thy neighbour? These were things we were told to do by our Saviour.

What about the grand commission?

Paul, himself, tell us to be slaves to righteousness. Those who say we have not to do works as an outpouring of our faith remind me of the parable of the ten virgins. They remind me of the slave who put his master's talent in the ground. It reminds me of Galatians 2:10.

I guess that because they have a grand view of election they do not need to feel the importance of being a witness of Christ through word and deed. I mean, why the urgency?

I sometimes wonder if they think like this:Your not saved if your not in the elect. Therefore, you are going to be saved anyway whether people busy living as faithful servents, living sacrifices or not. Therefore, what people see in them doesn't matter.

Well it does. Peter says we are to live lives without blemish in front of the gentler in order that God's name isn't sullied. I fear for the Christians who are so woefully misled and ignoring what Jesus told us to do. Why does Jesus promise (through the revelation of John) things to the churches if they persevere. It would not be classed as persevering if we had nothing to do at all in this. Also, rewarded? It wouldn't be a reward if we made no effort. Different words would be used. Gifted perhaps.

But we do need to act. We have been redeemed, washed, clothed in Christ. We have been empowered with His Spirit to live holy lives. Jesus was the Son of God, eternally secure, yet on earth He worked for His Father's kingdom. He taught, healed, and demonstrated that we are to forsake wealth and worldly things and strive for Him. We are to pick up our cross and follow Him. He does not say our job is just to believe and sit back. He says follow! That is an active verb. No we don't do it to deserve forgiveness or righteousness. We do it because He loved us first and now, as recipients of that love, we are to love others as we walk with Him.

Who is “they”?

 

[Sam91]

Who is “they”?

Who is we? All of us are we.

'They' are those who think we can get away with sitting back, content in our salvation/election (which is prideful), and think that as long as they believe that is enough. They are like the Virgins who sat back instead of having the oil. How can we be in Him if we do not love those around us? How can we be in Him if we are not spurred to action?

However, that is such a short sighted view. The apostles had to endure hardship, in the OT Daniel, Abraham, Joshua, David, Esther, Nehemiah, Joseph, Elijah, Jonah, Elisha, Hosea, Moses etc.... the list is so so long ... Their faith all led to actions.

 

[Hammster]

Who is we? All of us are we.

'They' are those who thing we can get away with sitting back, content in our salvation/election (which is prideful), and think that as long as they believe that is enough. They are like the Virgins who sat back instead of having the oil. How can we be in Him if we do not love those around us? How can we be in Him if we are not spurred to action?

However, that is such a short sighted view. The apostles had to endure hardship, in the OT Daniel, Abraham, Joshua, David, Esther, Nehemiah, Joseph, Elijah, Jonah, Elisha, Hosea, Moses etc.... the list is so so long ... Their faith all led to actions.

I agree with that.

 

[Sam91]

I agree with that.

Well may I go further then. Those actions from faith are works of righteousness. The ones ordained by God, exemplified in Ephesians 2:10 for us to do.

There is a problem when Christians go around misunderstanding the whole idea of 'works'. Most of us know our works do not merit salvation. However, our works are a necessary outpouring of that and to dispel that point, as people like to do on forums by arguing with each other, is harmful to people's (and reader's) walks. The people who are then content to rest easy on their belief without heeding James' reminder that faith without works is dead. You see, the Spirit within us prompts us to these works, through our compassion to others and our awe and grateful obedience to God.

However, the enemy (I am loathe to talk about him, I rarely do it) must relish the divisions over these topics and Calvin's doctrine... in fact man's doctrines because a lot of them cause problems. It leads us into stumbling.

To say though that we have no responsibility in our salvation, to me, can make Christian's lax. God does It, of course, but Jesus was sure to tell us that we were to act. The parable of the good Samaritan enters my head now. The religious folk walked past neglecting the injured person. Also brought to mind are the Pharisees, clinging to their law (doctrine) and entirely missing the point.

(I have also found that in obeying the Bible's instructions and in doing works -such as showing love to those who wrong me, which also led to someone wanting to know more about Christ,- that God strengthens my faith making it real heart knowledge. Rather than something I believe in my head. Is that part of how we are sanctified? Sorry about the really bad punctuation!)

 

[Hammster]

Well may I go further then. Those actions from faith are works of righteousness. The ones ordained by God, exemplified in Ephesians 2:10 for us to do.

There is a problem when Christians go around misunderstanding the whole idea of 'works'. Most of us know our works do not merit salvation. However, our works are a necessary outpouring of that and to dispel that point, as people like to do on forums by arguing with each other, is harmful to people's (and reader's) walks. The people who are then content to rest easy on their belief without heeding James' reminder that faith without works is dead. You see, the Spirit within us prompts us to these works, through our compassion to others and our awe and grateful obedience to God.

However, the enemy (I am loathe to talk about him, I rarely do it) must relish the divisions over these topics and Calvin's doctrine... in fact man's doctrines because a lot of them cause problems. It leads us into stumbling.

To say though that we have no responsibility in our salvation, to me, can make Christian's lax. God does It, of course, but Jesus was sure to tell us that we were to act. The parable of the good Samaritan enters my head now. The religious folk walked past neglecting the injured person. Also brought to mind are the Pharisees, clinging to their law (doctrine) and entirely missing the point.

Can you bear fruit apart from the vine? No. What’s required? Simply to be in the Vine. Then the fruit comes.

The argument isn’t whether we should work. It’s whether the work contributes to our righteousness. Some here think it does. Some think works are required to be sanctified. That’s opposite of the gospel, and I’ll fight against that. Not to win an argument, but to hopefully spare some the burden of thinking that they need to do things to stay saved.

 

[Sam91]

Can you bear fruit apart from the vine? No. What’s required? Simply to be in the Vine. Then the fruit comes.

The argument isn’t whether we should work. It’s whether the work contributes to our righteousness. Some here think it does. Some think works are required to be sanctified. That’s opposite of the gospel, and I’ll fight against that. Not to win an argument, but to hopefully spare some the burden of thinking that they need to do things to stay saved.

I added a very badly punctuated paragraph to my post to illustrate how works have benefited me. Not works of the law, but remembering God's directions for our life. The Spirit possibly brought to mind to love my enemy and I now know the blessing of doing that. It comes easier now to want to pray for those who try to wrong me. Such freedom in that. God did that, but if I hadn't have obeyed I doubt it would have happened yet. I don't know if I could have disobeyed in that moment but the cautious view is to remind people to obey. Scripture does! If we don't are we partly responsible for others stumbling? But if we do we might prevent someone sinning.

I think the vast majority of Christian realise that God sanctifies us, but we have the responsibility to obey Him. Our disobedience, when we have His command written on our hearts and His Spirit guiding us, is a deplorable thing. You see, this is where our theologies differ again. I believe we can lose our salvation because the Bible warns of it from Genesis right through to Revelation. Jesus' words to the Churches are under the new covenant and speak of it. He speaks of rewards and punishment showing us our contribution towards our eventual destination. He gave a remedy in Revelation 2 or 3 where He counsels them to buy from Him gold refined by fire. We ask Him to strengthen our faith and our desire for Him. You see those warnings are there to help us remain in Him.

 

[Hammster]

I added a very badly punctuated paragraph to my post to illustrate how works have benefited me. Not works of the law, but remembering God's directions for our life. The Spirit possibly brought to mind to love my enemy and I now know the blessing of doing that. It comes easier now to want to pray for those who try to wrong me. Such freedom in that. God did that, but if I hadn't have obeyed I doubt it would have happened yet. I don't know if I could have disobeyed in that moment but the cautious view is to remind people to obey. Scripture does! If we don't are we partly responsible for others stumbling? But if we do we might prevent someone sinning.

I think the vast majority of Christian realise that God sanctifies us, but we have the responsibility to obey Him. Our disobedience, when we have His command written on our hearts and His Spirit guiding us is a deplorable thing. You see, this is where our theologies differ again. I believe we can lose our salvation because the Bible warns of it from Genesis right through to Revelation. Jesus' words to the Churches are under the new covenant and speak of it. He speaks of rewards and punishment showing us our contribution towards our eventual destination. He gave a remedy in Revelation 2 or 3 where He counsellors the to buy from Him refined by fire. We ask Him to strengthen our faith and desire for Him. You see those warnings are there to help us remain in Him.

If you believe you can lose it, then why haven’t you? What makes you better than those who have?

It’s not a snarky question. I’m really curious.

 

[Sam91]

If you believe you can lose it, then why haven’t you? What makes you better than those who have?

It’s not a snarky question. I’m really curious.

By heeding His words in the Bible and feeling the loss of Peace in my spirit when I falter.

When I recently became lukewarm I couldn't regain that first feeling. I ended up praying for the gold refined by fire.(I've been hit with many trials since) A couple of days later, I picked up an old prayer journal of mine to compare a prayer list to my old one. I was also struck by how many Christians are now in my life and how full of supportive people my life is and ended up reading of a really hard time, much harder, I went through two years ago while fervent for Him A couple of hours later, the person who caused that ordeal contacted me out of the blue with words intending to cause fear and selfdoubt, he was also trying to use scripture to condemn me. However, I was already strengthened by remembering God's care, protection and provision through reading that journal earlier. The physical fear response was there but my mind was calm. I decided to pray for him and I was so grateful to the Lord God Almighty for giving me that desire. I was full of His peace. Can't be coincidental. I was really blessed. God showed His hand on my life stoking the flames. He also probably gave me the yearning to pray that prayer just over a week ago. He keeps me in Him.

He is teaching, calling to remembrance, conforming us. I believe that those with ears remain, but they need to walk in the Spirit or it becomes harder to do so. Our walk with God shows us this.

To lose one's salvation they must choose to ignore God and His Spirit until their hearts are no longer caring. To do that then yes, then damnation is deserved but it isn't easy to get lost.

You see I also believe we interpret election wrong. I believe the human race was elected, hence why God gave dominion to Adam over the animals. We were separated out, chosen, given distinction.

I believe everyone has ears to hear, however our love for ourselves and the world dims those ears. For the news of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing. Why are they perishing, because they don't want to hear it, they don't want to hear God's call because they love themselves and the world. We were given the knowledge of GOOD as well as evil. So yes, we were dead in our sins but we have the knowledge and capability of responding to God. I believe everyone is given the chance at least once to hear and guess most of those who never obey that call do so many times. That way verses such as 'God does not want any of us to perish' make sense. God is loving, holy and just.

I believe God is Sovereign and doesn't make mistakes. I believe we can be in Him and then cut off. Jesus talked about the tree that doesn't bear fruit given that extra time and another instance in John 15:2 the branch in Jesus that doesn't bear fruit will be cut off. We are called to persevere and God helps us to do so. The Bible also informs us that we need to persevere. It isn't perseverance if we are carried without making any choices to obey. The words in the Bible would be different, it wouldn't say 'strive, 'persevere, 'seize hold of'.

His way is higher than ours. I believe He punishes those who deserve it, and we all do deserve it because of sin. The fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil gave us the opportunity to choose Him or not. God gave us that choice, if we don't obey His call then we deserve to be punished. In Calvinism those not of the elect are punished simply because they were born. However, the Bible tells us throughout the punishment for sin and to choose life. The life redeemed by Christ on the cross, given to us through His grace.

Also, it don't think myself better than those who haven't fallen, that would be prideful. Even Paul in Philippians didn't count his race as finished. Instead, I think of Him who has redeemed me and thus far kept me from being lost. I pray that I will keep my eyes on Him and not wrapped up in things of the world. We are told to remind each other of the gospel and there would be little point in that if it were not to help us remain in Him.

He is the author and finisher of our faith as I quoted as my first response to this thread. God is also not the author of confusion. The Bible makes sense, man's doctrine not so because it conflicts with what is plainly written and emphasised repeatedly.

 

[Hammster]

He is the author and finisher of our faith as I quoted as my first response to this thread. God is also not the author of confusion. The Bible makes sense, man's doctrine not so.

This part doesn’t quite jive with you thinking you can lose your salvation. If Jesus is both the Author AND finisher, what makes you think you can lose it? It really doesn’t make sense to me.

 

[Sam91]

This part doesn’t quite jive with you thinking you can lose your salvation. If Jesus is both the Author AND finisher, what makes you think you can lose it? It really doesn’t make sense to me.

It does to me. The same way the Philippians 2:12 says ' to work out your salvation with fear and trembling'. It isn't contradictory.

 

[Hammster]

It does to me. The same way the Philippians 2:12 says ' to work out your salvation with fear and trembling'. It isn't contradictory.

You neglected to include the rest.

for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
— Philippians 2:13

That would make sense since He’s the author and finisher. His will. His pleasure.