catholics, i am a protestant, i want to hear you

☦Marius☦

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I don't understand the question, honestly. It has everything to do with having faith that the cross and resurrection is reality, otherwise, why would anyone partake?
I don't see how any of this means it's not symbolic? It's a spiritual experience that is meant to be taken seriously. I'm not sure how that means that the wine and bread has to literally become blood and flesh?

That was exactly the problem. People were partaking without being in proper repentance and faith, and were becoming extremely ill. Why would this specific ritual be so emphasized to be taken with caution if it is simply a symbol? I know when you say "literally become flesh and blood" you are getting hung up on the matter that makes up the bread and wine- but it is a mystical transformation- one of God. It is a Holy Mystery just like Baptism.
 
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GodLovesCats

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Then why did early Christians become ill when partaking unprepared? Why did Paul warn that the utmost seriousness needed to be taken before joining in the meal? What does eating Christ's flesh and drinking his blood have to do with having faith that he was resurrected from the dead and was God? If it is a symbol it is completely unnecessary.

For salvation, yes, because only Christians are allowed to participate. But it is God's command, along with baptism, which is also completely unnecessary for a person to be saved.
 
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Dave G.

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I would support a rule against drive-by postings of scripture without comment.

What precisely are you trying to say here?
You're right, I shot that out before commenting. Cats above asked for scripture from another poster and I didn't want to butt in. It was on the broken body/broken bread. From the NKJV the body is mentioned directly but scriptures/bible versions differ when translating to English in particular, so I put up a few common translations that could be Catholic acceptable and protestant as well. And so you see the four I grabbed at random to which I believe the Douey is Catholic approved and in some places the NASB as well.
 
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renniks

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That was exactly the problem. People were partaking without being in proper repentance and faith, and were becoming extremely ill. Why would this specific ritual be so emphasized to be taken with caution if it is simply a symbol? I know when you say "literally become flesh and blood" you are getting hung up on the matter that makes up the bread and wine- but it is a mystical transformation- one of God. It is a Holy Mystery just like Baptism.

Ok, I have no problem with "Holy Mystery". And in most all the protestant churches I have partaken in, there is a period of time for repentance before the elements are received. I think you are too hung up on the word "symbol" though. Baptism is symbolic too, for most protestants. We don't believe the water literally saves you. Something can be symbolic and still be deeply meaningful. But, to Protestants, it's not something that has to be done to maintain your salvation.
 
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☦Marius☦

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For salvation, yes, because only Christians are allowed to participate. But it is God's command, along with baptism, which is also completely unnecessary for a person to be saved.

Jesus said, "I solemnly assure you, no one can enter into Gods kingdom without being begotten of water and Spirit" (John 3:5). At the ascension, our Lord commanded the apostles, "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations. Baptize them in the name of the father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Teach them to carry out everything I have commanded you" (Matt. 28:19-20). In another account of the ascension, Jesus added, "The man who believes in [the good news] and accepts Baptism will be saved; the man who refuses to believe in it will be condemned" (Mark 16:16).

Seems necessary to me.
 
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GodLovesCats

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That was exactly the problem. People were partaking without being in proper repentance and faith, and were becoming extremely ill. Why would this specific ritual be so emphasized to be taken with caution if it is simply a symbol? I know when you say "literally become flesh and blood" you are getting hung up on the matter that makes up the bread and wine- but it is a mystical transformation- one of God. It is a Holy Mystery just like Baptism.

The mystery about baptism is doing it on children who are too young to understand Christianity and have faith, much less make a decision to follow Him.
 
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☦Marius☦

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Ok, I have no problem with "Holy Mystery". And in most all the protestant churches I have partaken in, there is a period of time for repentance before the elements are received. I think you are too hung up on the word "symbol" though. Baptism is symbolic too, for most protestants. We don't believe the water literally saves you. Something can be symbolic and still be deeply meaningful. But, to Protestants, it's not something that has to be done to maintain your salvation.

What is the problem with "Holy Mystery"? There are things of God that are mysterious but are also Holy. Those are holy mysteries..
 
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GodLovesCats

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Jesus said, "I solemnly assure you, no one can enter into Gods kingdom without being begotten of water and Spirit" (John 3:5). At the ascension, our Lord commanded the apostles, "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations. Baptize them in the name of the father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Teach them to carry out everything I have commanded you" (Matt. 28:19-20). In another account of the ascension, Jesus added, "The man who believes in [the good news] and accepts Baptism will be saved; the man who refuses to believe in it will be condemned" (Mark 16:16).

Seems necessary to me.

Notice Jesus said "make disciples" before "baptize them." Protestants take not of the word order here and elsewhere in the New Testament, where baptism is written after a word about salvation.
 
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☦Marius☦

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The mystery about baptism is doing it on children who are too young to understand Christianity and have faith, much less make a decision to follow Him.

Cornelius had his entire household Baptized in the NT.
 
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☦Marius☦

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Notice Jesus said "make disciples" before "baptize them." Protestants take not of the word order here and elsewhere in the New Testament, where baptism is written after a word about salvation.

Disciples of the Nation's.
 
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GodLovesCats

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What everyone in his family able to understand who Jesus is and why He should be followed?

Personal experience makes changing my mind impossible on this one. I was baptized as a baby. That was not helpful at all because it took me 20 years to accpet Jesus. Until age 17, I was an atheist. So what was my first baptism for? I decided to be baptized again after being saved, which is Biblical.
 
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Anto9us

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Methodists use Welch' s grape juice, Episcopalians use wine.

Yew kin drink from a common cup, or little individual plastic cup - yer choice - and yew kin tare off a hunk of real bread or take a sorry little wafer as hard as a rock.

It is NOT "merely symbolic" IMO.

If coca cola and Oreo cookies were used, it would still be flesh and blood of Christ.

Musterion. Can't lean on our own understanding.
 
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Albion

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Either way Orthodoxy openly accepts the word transubstantation
but with some hesitation since their understanding of the matter is significantly different from the RC one.

It couldn't be merely symbolic or figurative. Why?
Because that would defy the evidence that you yourself mentioned earlier.
 
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Albion

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Personal experience makes changing my mind impossible on this one. I was baptized as a baby. That was not helpful at all because it took me 20 years to accpet Jesus. Until age 17, I was an atheist. So what was my first baptism for?
Perhaps the fact that you were baptized earlier made possible or helped in your eventual conversion.
 
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Albion

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Exactly. Of course, the Spirit is present, so Jesus is present in Spirit, but to belive the elements are literally His body, um no, it's obviously meant to be figurative..
Well, about 1/4 or 1/5 of Christendom agrees with you. ;) It seems that there must be a counter-argument since Real Presence was the belief of ALL Christian churches until only 500 or so years ago.
 
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BNR32FAN

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It is not "the" thing Protestants object to. There are certainly others. I can't type for other Protestants on CF, but this is my reason: Jesus is in heaven, not on Earth. The wine and bread are on Earth. So how can the blood and body of Jesus actually be in the wine and bread, respectively? It does not make sense.

Of course I know Jesus said, "This is my blood" and, "This is my body." So I am not saying it is bad to believe what is scientifically impossible. Just not my thing.

Most of what Jesus did was scientifically impossible.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Well, about 1/4 or 1/5 of Christendom agrees with you. ;) It seems that there must be a counter-argument since Real Presence was the belief of ALL Christian churches until only 500 or so years ago.

Only 500 years? I was thinking it was more like the first 1500 years.
 
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Albion

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Only 500 years? I was thinking it was more like the first 1500 years.
Nope. There is no doubt, except perhaps for a few scattered, tiny, and persecuted cults here and there, that Christianity was united in believing in the doctrine called the Real Presence.

Gradually, of course, that consensus has come apart with Roman Catholics adopting Transubstantiation and Protestants going several other ways.
 
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BNR32FAN

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What everyone in his family able to understand who Jesus is and why He should be followed?

Personal experience makes changing my mind impossible on this one. I was baptized as a baby. That was not helpful at all because it took me 20 years to accpet Jesus. Until age 17, I was an atheist. So what was my first baptism for? I decided to be baptized again after being saved, which is Biblical.

I did the same. I was baptized at 5 years old, although I wouldn’t say I was atheist, but I wouldn’t say I was Christian either. I didn’t actually accept Christ into my life until I was 38 years old and decided to be baptized again as a symbol of my conversion. I will say that I was baptized with the Holy Spirit before I was baptized the second time because I had already been born again and had become a new creation. So water baptism for me was not the changing point in my life both when I was a child and when I was an adult.
 
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