catholics, i am a protestant, i want to hear you

GodLovesCats

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It couldn't be merely symbolic or figurative. Why? Because Christ says "This is my body which is broken for you," yet John makes quite an emphasis on the fact that Christ's physical body was not broken on the cross. So what what would Christ have to be referring to? The bread.

Cite the verse please. I have done Communion more times than I can count and never heard a pastor say the word broken.
 
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☦Marius☦

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Cite the verse please. I have done Communion more times than I can count and never heard a pastor say the word broken.
and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body, which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”

And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”


Forgive me, I was quoting the words of institution. Lothe as I am to misquote Christ, sometimes I get the two mixed, especially when going off memory at work. However the verses do still emphasize that he broke the bread, where as John emphasizes

" The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”
 
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Dave G.

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1 Corinthians 11:24 New King James Version (NKJV)
24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, a]">[a]“Take, eat; this is My body which is b]">[b]broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”
1 Corinthians 11:24 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
24 And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me.

1 Corinthians 11:24 Amplified Bible (AMP)
24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is (represents) My body, which is [offered as a sacrifice] for you. Do this in [affectionate] remembrance of Me.”

1 Corinthians 11:24 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”
 
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☦Marius☦

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Obviously the DNA of grapes (in wine) and flour (in bread). Not one single human double helix. That's the reason I cannot accept the idea that Jesus' blood and body are actually in those things and Communion is 100% symbolic (but no less important).

I don't think that anyone teaches that the matter scientifically changes, it is a spiritual change- a manifestation of the Holy Spirit if you will. And even if you don't choose to believe in transubstantiation in the RCC context, the real presence is still backed up.

Sources

The Didache:
or "The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles" is a manuscript which was used by 2nd century bishops and priests for the instruction of catechumens. Many early Christian writers have referenced it making this document relatively easy to date.

"Let no one eat and drink of your Eucharist but those baptized in the name of the Lord; to this, too the saying of the Lord is applicable: 'Do not give to dogs what is sacred'".

-Ch. 9:5

"On the Lord's own day, assemble in common to break bread and offer thanks; but first confess your sins, so that your sacrifice may be pure. However, no one quarreling with his brother may join your meeting until they are reconciled; your sacrifice must not be defiled. For here we have the saying of the Lord: 'In every place and time offer me a pure sacrifice; for I am a mighty King, says the Lord; and my name spreads terror among the nations.'"



St. Ignatius:
became the third bishop of Antioch, succeeding St. Evodius, who was the immediate successor of St. Peter. He heard St. John preach when he was a boy and knew St. Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna. Seven of his letters written to various Christian communities have been preserved. Eventually, he received the martyr's crown as he was thrown to wild beasts in the arena.

"Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us. They have no regard for charity, none for the widow, the orphan, the oppressed, none for the man in prison, the hungry or the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead."

"Letter to the Smyrnaeans", paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D.

"Come together in common, one and all without exception in charity, in one faith and in one Jesus Christ, who is of the race of David according to the flesh, the son of man, and the Son of God, so that with undivided mind you may obey the bishop and the priests, and break one Bread which is the medicine of immortality and the antidote against death, enabling us to live forever in Jesus Christ."

-"Letter to the Ephesians", paragraph 20, c. 80-110 A.D.

"I have no taste for the food that perishes nor for the pleasures of this life. I want the Bread of God which is the Flesh of Christ, who was the seed of David; and for drink I desire His Blood which is love that cannot be destroyed."

-"Letter to the Romans", paragraph 7, circa 80-110 A.D.

"Take care, then who belong to God and to Jesus Christ - they are with the bishop. And those who repent and come to the unity of the Church - they too shall be of God, and will be living according to Jesus Christ. Do not err, my brethren: if anyone follow a schismatic, he will not inherit the Kingdom of God. If any man walk about with strange doctrine, he cannot lie down with the passion. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: for there is one Flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of His Blood; one altar, as there is one bishop with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons."

-Epistle to the Philadelphians, 3:2-4:1, 110 A.D.



St. Justin Martyr
was born a pagan but converted to Christianity after studying philosophy. He was a prolific writer and many Church scholars consider him the greatest apologist or defender of the faith from the 2nd century. He was beheaded with six of his companions some time between 163 and 167 A.D.

"This food we call the Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake except one who believes that the things we teach are true, and has received the washing for forgiveness of sins and for rebirth, and who lives as Christ handed down to us. For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God's Word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the Word of prayer which comes from him, from which our flesh and blood are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus."

"First Apology", Ch. 66, inter A.D. 148-155.

"God has therefore announced in advance that all the sacrifices offered in His name, which Jesus Christ offered, that is, in the Eucharist of the Bread and of the Chalice, which are offered by us Christians in every part of the world, are pleasing to Him."

"Dialogue with Trypho", Ch. 117, circa 130-160 A.D.

Moreover, as I said before, concerning the sacrifices which you at that time offered, God speaks through Malachias, one of the twelve, as follows: 'I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord; and I will not accept your sacrifices from your hands; for from the rising of the sun until its setting, my name has been glorified among the gentiles; and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a clean offering: for great is my name among the gentiles, says the Lord; but you profane it.' It is of the sacrifices offered to Him in every place by us, the gentiles, that is, of the Bread of the Eucharist and likewise of the cup of the Eucharist, that He speaks at that time; and He says that we glorify His name, while you profane it."


St. Irenaeus
succeeded St. Pothinus to become the second bishop of Lyons in 177 A.D. Earlier in his life he studied under St. Polycarp. Considered, one of the greatest theologians of the 2nd century, St. Irenaeus is best known for refuting the Gnostic heresies.

[Christ] has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own Blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own Body, from which he gives increase to our bodies."

Source: St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies, 180 A.D.:

"So then, if the mixed cup and the manufactured bread receive the Word of God and become the Eucharist, that is to say, the Blood and Body of Christ, which fortify and build up the substance of our flesh, how can these people claim that the flesh is incapable of receiving God's gift of eternal life, when it is nourished by Christ's Blood and Body and is His member? As the blessed apostle says in his letter to the Ephesians, 'For we are members of His Body, of His flesh and of His bones' (Eph. 5:30). He is not talking about some kind of 'spiritual' and 'invisible' man, 'for a spirit does not have flesh an bones' (Lk. 24:39). No, he is talking of the organism possessed by a real human being, composed of flesh and nerves and bones. It is this which is nourished by the cup which is His Blood, and is fortified by the bread which is His Body. The stem of the vine takes root in the earth and eventually bears fruit, and 'the grain of wheat falls into the earth' (Jn. 12:24), dissolves, rises again, multiplied by the all-containing Spirit of God, and finally after skilled processing, is put to human use. These two then receive the Word of God and become the Eucharist, which is the Body and Blood of Christ."

-"Five Books on the Unmasking and Refutation of the Falsely

Named Gnosis". Book 5:2, 2-3, circa 180 A.D. "For just as the bread which comes from the earth, having received the invocation of God, is no longer ordinary bread, but the Eucharist, consisting of two realities, earthly and heavenly, so our bodies, having received the Eucharist, are no longer corruptible, because they have the hope of the resurrection."

-"Five Books on the Unmasking and Refutation of the Falsely named Gnosis". Book 4:18 4-5, circa 180 A.D.
 
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thecolorsblend

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I believe in a Real Presence, but have no explanation for it. Transubstanstian confuses me.
It is challenging doctrine, I will grant that.

I try to keep an open mind on Perpetual Virginity of Mary. It is not a matter of dogma to me.
The Church's Marian doctrines are intersectional. The truth of one requires that the rest be true as well in most cases. Thus, her Perpetual Virginity is a logical thing to believe in considering her Immaculate Conception. To me, the two are necessarily linked.

My main objection is to Papal authority. No reason I can see that Bishop of Rome is somehow "higher" than Orthodox Bishops - that is what makes no sense.

To me the Pope is not the "Vicar of Christ".
St. Irenaeus staked authentic Christian belief on agreement with Rome. He didn't get that idea from nowhere.
 
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jamesbond007

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i don't know why you do(or believe) these things, i would like to know how do you feel doing these works, and if you feel nearer to god working like this.

#purgatory
#rosary
#transubstantiation (the conversion of the substance of the Eucharistic elements into the body and blood of Christ at consecration, only the appearances of bread and wine still remaining)
#mary and the saints as mediators between god and me.
#baptism since child
#penance for sins
#pope vicar of christ, infallibility of the pope
#sacraments:
>initiation
baptism
confirmation
eucharit
restored order of initiation
>sacraments of healing
penance and reconciliation
anointing of the sick
>sacraments of service
holy orders
matrimony
#demonic possessions
#apocryphal books
#sign of the cross

People believe what they want to believe. You cannot change this as it is their world view. Only they can change it.

For example, what if I told you that God that you believe is Odin?
 
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renniks

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However, ☦Marius☦ is right that that purely spiritual presence concept was not what the first century church believed (judging from the writings of some of the early leaders). And if you mean to say that it's only "figurative," then we're even further away.
Symbolic is probably a better word. The Spirit is literally present, at least in any communion where the people are true believers, but the grape juice and wafers are symbols of what Christ did for us, not literal blood and flesh.
 
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thecolorsblend

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1 Corinthians 11:24 New King James Version (NKJV)
24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, a]">[a]“Take, eat; this is My body which is b]">[b]broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”
1 Corinthians 11:24 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
24 And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me.

1 Corinthians 11:24 Amplified Bible (AMP)
24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is (represents) My body, which is [offered as a sacrifice] for you. Do this in [affectionate] remembrance of Me.”

1 Corinthians 11:24 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”
I would support a rule against drive-by postings of scripture without comment.

What precisely are you trying to say here?
 
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GodLovesCats

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People believe what they want to believe. You cannot change this as it is their world view. Only they can change it.

For example, what if I told you that God that you believe is Odin?

The question is obviously WHY do Catholics believe these things?
 
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renniks

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It couldn't be merely symbolic or figurative. Why? Because Christ says "This is my body which is broken for you", yet John makes quite an emphasis on the fact that Christ's physical body was not broken on the cross. So what what would Christ have to be referring to? The bread.
Of course he was referring to the bread, and to drinking his blood and eating his flesh to symbolically participate in what is literally true in the spiritual realm, we are his because of his death and resurrection.
 
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GodLovesCats

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Symbolic is probably a better word. The Spirit is literally present, at least in any communion where the people are true believers, but the grape juice and wafers are symbols of what Christ did for us, not literal blood and flesh.

Right, only hte Holy Spirit can be with us. That is why I never understood people saying Jesus is there during communion.
 
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☦Marius☦

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The question is obviously WHY do Catholics believe these things?

I just gave you several quotes from early church sources as to why (see post 64). I could easily pull several more. These ideas didn't fall out of the sky. The elders the apostles appointed either all turned against Christ and lied to invent this doctrine for no reason and were still martyred, or they were teaching what the apostles taught.
 
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thecolorsblend

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The question is obviously WHY do Catholics believe these things?
As has been said (and not just in this thread), we traditional Christians take Our Lord's words in St. John 6 literally.

St. John 6 said:
54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.

55 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

56 For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed.

57 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him.

58 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me.

59 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead. He that eateth this bread, shall live for ever.

60 These things he said, teaching in the synagogue, in Capharnaum.

61 Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard, and who can hear it?

62 But Jesus, knowing in himself, that his disciples murmured at this, said to them: Doth this scandalize you?

63 If then you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

64 It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you, are spirit and life.

65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning, who they were that did not believe, and who he was, that would betray him.

66 And he said: Therefore did I say to you, that no man can come to me, unless it be given him by my Father.

67 After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him.

68 Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away?

69 And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

70 And we have believed and have known, that thou art the Christ, the Son of God.
Some disciples deserted Our Lord's ministry after this because they took His words literally. And when they took His words literally, He never told them that they were wrong. He allowed them to leave.

If Our Lord was attempting to speak in literal terms, how much clearer could He have possibly been in that passage? There are tons more ways He could've clarified Himself if He was speaking metaphorically. But there is literally zero indication in that passage that He was speaking in anything other than a literal sense.
 
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☦Marius☦

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GodLovesCats

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To my knowledge Catholics use wine? Grape juice is a Protestant thing if I'm correct.

Oh I thought Catholics drink grape juice. Sorry.

Well, that is one thing I can't object to in Catholicsm.
 
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☦Marius☦

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Of course he was referring to the bread, and to drinking his blood and eating his flesh to symbolically participate in what is literally true in the spiritual realm, we are his because of his death and resurrection.

Then why did early Christians become ill when partaking unprepared? Why did Paul warn that the utmost seriousness needed to be taken before joining in the meal? What does eating Christ's flesh and drinking his blood have to do with having faith that he was resurrected from the dead and was God? If it is a symbol it is completely unnecessary.
 
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renniks

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Right, only hte Holy Spirit can be with us. That is why I never understood people saying Jesus is there during communion.

I think it's a distinction without a difference. The three are one, so in that sense, he is there. Even though I'm protestant, though I really want to believe Jesus is somehow mystically present in the bread and wine, to be honest. So, I'm not gonna get all dogmatic about it one way or another. Just trying to understand it a bit better.
 
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renniks

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Then why did early Christians become ill when partaking unprepared? Why did Paul warn that the utmost seriousness needed to be taken before joining in the meal? What does eating Christ's flesh and drinking his blood have to do with having faith that he was resurrected from the dead and was God? If it is a symbol it is completely unnecessary.

I don't understand the question, honestly. It has everything to do with having faith that the cross and resurrection is reality, otherwise, why would anyone partake?
I don't see how any of this means it's not symbolic? It's a spiritual experience that is meant to be taken seriously. I'm not sure how that means that the wine and bread has to literally become blood and flesh?
 
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