catholics, i am a protestant, i want to hear you

GodLovesCats

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The Catholic doctrine is that the bread and wine change over into real flesh and blood. (About 1/3 of American Catholics actually believe it, according to a recent study, although it is the official belief of their church)

Why would the Catholic doctrine include a belief that most of its own followers don't share?
 
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Albion

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Why would the Catholic doctrine include a belief that most of its own followers don't share?
Don't misunderstand. They are supposed to believe the doctrine (Transubstantiation), and it is no doubt true that many people in ANY denomination are loyal to their church but yet they do not agree in private with some of its teachings, even the very important ones. That's just the way people are.
 
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☦Marius☦

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If the apostles knew what Jesus said, how could they not understand it correctly?
The teaching of transubstantation in its specifics goes all the way back to St Ignatius who was one of John's disciples. He wrote about it extensively and was backed up by Polycarp who Paul praised for his faithfulness.
 
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GodLovesCats

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Do any Catholics feel like they have to play defense so far? I hope not.

Moving along, I always wondered why Catholics think they must confess sins to a priest inside the church instead of ask God directly for forgiveness st home. Why does it matter?
 
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DamianWarS

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Our souls demand Purgatory, don’t they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, “It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy.”? Should we not
The difference between the best of us and Christ is still out of reach. It's like comparing who's the cleanest pig in the pigstye. Even if you find a fairly clean one it's still a pig. Purgatory seems rather arbitrary because all would have to pass through being 1 of a billion shades of black.
 
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Albion

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The teaching of transubstantation in its specifics goes all the way back to St Ignatius who was one of John's disciples. He wrote about it extensively and was backed up by Polycarp who Paul praised for his faithfulness.
I think you are referring to Real Presence, not to Transubstantiation which is clearly a Medieval development.
 
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☦Marius☦

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I think you are referring to Real Presence, not to Transubstantiation which is clearly a Medieval development.

They are the same thing by definition. The word "transubstantation" was just a word coined later for an already existing dogma. I got into a debate a few years ago over the word with an Orthodox Priest where he calmly showed me that Orthodox do in fact believe in transubstantation, we merely don't use the word. Now there are of course RCC expansions on the original definition of the word, but the concept still stands.
 
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☦Marius☦

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Do any Catholics feel like they have to play defense so far? I hope not.

Moving along, I always wondered why Catholics think they must confess sins to a priest inside the church instead of ask God directly for forgiveness st home. Why does it matter?

A. Because the NT instructs Christians to confess before the church, not in private

B. Because the priest is their to advise the person how to overcome that sin. It is a pastoral work. The priest then gives the person permission to commune if they are in repentence, or will otherwise give them a penance, which is a spiritual aid to that repentence.
 
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☦Marius☦

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Yikes. Well, that does confirm my suspicion that you were confusing the two.

How so? St. Ignatius says the elements ARE the body and blood of Christ, yet they maintain their physical form. This would mean that the substance has been translated into Christ's body spiritually, but not the materials mystically. That is the basic idea of transubstantation
 
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Dave G.

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I think we all can believe or most of us, in the real presence . Transubstantiation is a whole nother ball game, especially once you taste it and it's the same as before. If they did a dna test on the elements what do you think they would find ?
 
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Albion

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How so? St. Ignatius says the elements ARE the body and blood of Christ, yet they maintain their physical form.
That is the doctrine of the Real Presence. But what does it mean to say they ARE the body and blood? In what sense is that to be understood?

For 800 or more years it was simply a mystery accepted, but then the idea gained acceptance that HOW the presence was to be understood could be explained mechanically. When the priest consecrates the elements, they cease altogether to be bread and wine and miraculously (or magically) become a different substance which in this case is the carnal, literal, physical presence of Jesus (as well as the spiritual of course). That's despite the look, feel, and all of that remaining as bread and wine would.

That innovation changed things and it became the official belief of the Roman Church in the early 1200s. By the way, I can see how a debate with an Orthodox Christian could have confused the issue further. ;)


This would mean that the substance has been translated into Christ's body spiritually, but not the materials mystically.
Not necessarily.
 
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renniks

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Isn't the point of this that Jesus can be present in the Lord's Supper although not his literal, physical, body?
Exactly. Of course, the Spirit is present, so Jesus is present in Spirit, but to belive the elements are literally His body, um no, it's obviously meant to be figurative. Jesus told people they had to partake of his body the first time when he was physically with those people. If they had taken that literally, it would have been cannibalism. Opps, after I wrote this I went back through the replies and noticed you are already said basically the same thing.
 
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Albion

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Exactly. Of course, the Spirit is present, so Jesus is present in Spirit, but to belive the elements are literally His body, um no, it's obviously meant to be figurative..

However, ☦Marius☦ is right that that purely spiritual presence concept was not what the first century church believed (judging from the writings of some of the early leaders). And if you mean to say that it's only "figurative," then we're even further away.
 
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lambofgod43985889

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#demonic possessions – You don’t believe demons exist?
#apocryphal books – They are good to be read in my Church


#sign of the cross – It is a prayer
i believe demons i wanted to say a demonic possession is only validated by the vatican
 
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lambofgod43985889

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If you really want to know the answers to all those questions it will take a little study on your part. You are asking a lot all at once. Catholics take classes on this stuff before converting and not just a week or two.. But if you want just a general response then it is a good suggestion made above to do it in one of the Catholic forums. If you don't really want the answers then why ask the question ? So hopefully we can assume you are being sincere.
you can give a response to the whole catholicism or one by one like:
I am a Traditional Christian, not Catholic but close so I hope it is okay for me to answer this


#purgatory – Because Scripture tells us that we will be purified I Corinthians 3:11-15. I love the way C.S. Lewis talked about Purgatory:



Our souls demand Purgatory, don’t they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, “It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy.”? Should we not

reply, “With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I’d rather be cleaned first.” “It may hurt, you know”—“Even so, sir.”


#rosary – To help contemplate what Christ went through. I myself say the Divine Mercy Chaplet Chaplet of the Divine Mercy - Wikipedia


#transubstantiation (the conversion of the substance of the Eucharistic elements into the body and blood of Christ at consecration, only the appearances of bread and wine still remaining) – That is what Catholics have termed the Real Presence of Christ. All Traditional Christians from Anglican to Orthodox and in between believe in the Real Presence as Christ told us in the Gospels. “This is my body” and “This is my blood”


#Mary and the saints as mediators between God and me. - That is wrong, there is only one mediator between God and man. That does not mean others can not pray for us like the Holy Mother and Saints as said in Hebrews “We have a great cloud of witnesses”. Do you ask other people to pray for you when you need it? Same thing Traditional Christians such as Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglicans along with others understand that those in Heaven can pray to as seen in Revelations.


#baptism since child – Do you mean infant Baptism? This has been done since ancient times ever since the Bible times and in the Bible where they Baptized whole families.


#penance for sins – Again in the Bible.



#sacraments: - They again have been done by the Ancient Churches and you can find more information online. We do the sacraments
>initiation
baptism
confirmation
Eucharist
restored order of initiation
>sacraments of healing
penance and reconciliation
anointing of the sick
>sacraments of service
holy orders
matrimony


#demonic possessions – You don’t believe demons exist?
#apocryphal books – They are good to be read in my Church


#sign of the cross – It is a prayer
 
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☦Marius☦

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That is the doctrine of the Real Presence. But what does it mean to say they ARE the body and blood? In what sense is that to be understood?

For 800 or more years it was simply a mystery accepted, but then the idea gained acceptance that HOW the presence was to be understood could be explained mechanically. When the priest consecrates the elements, they cease altogether to be bread and wine and miraculously (or magically) become a different substance which in this case is the carnal, literal, physical presence of Jesus (as well as the spiritual of course). That's despite the look, feel, and all of that remaining as bread and wine would.

That innovation changed things and it became the official belief of the Roman Church in the early 1200s. By the way, I can see how a debate with an Orthodox Christian could have confused the issue further. ;)



Not necessarily.
Either way Orthodoxy openly accepts the word transubstantation

Exactly. Of course, the Spirit is present, so Jesus is present in Spirit, but to belive the elements are literally His body, um no, it's obviously meant to be figurative. Jesus told people they had to partake of his body the first time when he was physically with those people. If they had taken that literally, it would have been cannibalism. Opps, after I wrote this I went back through the replies and noticed you are already said basically the same thing.

It couldn't be merely symbolic or figurative. Why? Because Christ says "This is my body which is broken for you", yet John makes quite an emphasis on the fact that Christ's physical body was not broken on the cross. So what what would Christ have to be referring to? The bread.
 
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GodLovesCats

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I think we all can believe or most of us, in the real presenc. Transubstantiation is a whole nother ball game, especially once you taste it and it's the same as before. If they did a DNA test on the elements what do you think they would find ?

Obviously the DNA of grapes (in wine) and flour (in bread). Not one single human double helix. That's the reason I cannot accept the idea that Jesus' blood and body are actually in those things and Communion is 100% symbolic (but no less important).
 
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