Why the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is not for Today

[Strong in Him]

But are you teaching false doctrine in his behalf?

No.
I'm not doing anything "on his behalf" - he doesn't know me and I don't know him.

 

[Strong in Him]

Are we straining out gnats and swallowing camels here?

I'm just saying that at times you insist that only the 12 were baptised in the Spirit at Pentecost, and specifically asked who it was that Jesus told to wait for the Holy Spirit. My answer was that he said this to 11 of his disciples. By the time of Pentecost, there was another apostle appointed.

 

[Strong in Him]

You must add to scripture to support it. Scripture supports my view having no other means of distribution for the Baptism

There is no Scriptural support for your statement;

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the gifts helped launch NT Christianity. But being incomplete and fragmentary, scripture replaced them giving the full revelation when finally completed in the Book of Revelation.

yet you continue to repeat it.
You can't repeat, mantra like, that we need to support our views with Scripture, if you are unable to do this yourself.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Here's what happened. (You won't hear this in a Pentecostal Church). The 12 spoke in one heavenly language to God. Paul says those who speak in tongues do not speak to men but unto God. And the devout Jews from all nations heard them, each in his own foreign tongue. These also received the gift of interpretation. Had it been millions present, the same would hold true.

You've got the gist right, and IS what I believe regarding the hearing. However, the 120 could have been speaking in 120 different languages, and each devout Jew would still have only heard ONE - THEIR OWN. That ability is called the gift of interpretation of tongues.

Have you ever seen this happen? I have. In Arizona a teenager heard tongues and was converted, but all she heard was English.

btw, I speak in tongues but am not a denominationalist. In fact, I don't know what Pentecostals believe regarding the hearing on the Day of Pentecost. I only know what most Cessationists believe and they believe the 120 were actually speaking their language, and the Jews heard them naturally. That teaching is totally unscriptural, as the rule is 1 Corinthians 14:2. There was nothing "natural" about that day, BOTH the speaking and the hearing were supernatural.

 

[Dave L]

You've got the gist right, and IS what I believe regarding the hearing. However, the 120 could have been speaking in 120 different languages, and each devout Jew would still have only heard ONE - THEIR OWN.

Have you ever seen this happen? I have. In Arizona a teenager heard tongues and was converted, but all she heard was English.

btw, I speak in tongues but am not a denominationalist. In fact, I don't know what Pentecostals believe regarding the hearing on the Day of Pentecost. I only know what most Cessationists believe and they believe the 120 were actually speaking their language, and the Jews heard them naturally. That teaching is totally unscriptural, as the rule is 1 Corinthians 14:2. There was nothing "natural" about that day, BOTH the speaking and the hearing were supernatural.

I had to junk all I had been taught about Acts as a Pentecostal and start over. If you discipline yourself not to think or say anything scripture does not directly say, a brand new understanding of Acts emerges.

 

[LoveofTruth]

If you look further, besides the two outpourings the baptism only came through an Apostle's hands. You need to prove it didn't by showing other examples in scripture. Until then you are adding to scripture.

Luke 11:13. If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?”

1 Corinthians 12:11. But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.”

 

[CharismaticLady]

I had to junk all I had been taught about Acts as a Pentecostal and start over. If you discipline yourself not to think or say anything scripture does not directly say, a brand new understanding of Acts emerges.

I did the same thing. But I junked everything over a different verse. What do you think of this one.

1 Corinthians 14:22a Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers

 

[Dave L]

Luke 11:13. If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?”

This is not talking about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Have you ever asked Jesus into your heart?

 

[topher694]

I had to junk all I had been taught about Acts as a Pentecostal and start over. If you discipline yourself not to think or say anything scripture does not directly say, a brand new understanding of Acts emerges.

Scripture does not say that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit has ceased, or that it only came through the hands of the 12 Apostles plus outpourings... so, thanks for clearing that up. Glad we can finally agree.

 

[Dave L]

I did the same thing. But I junked everything over a different verse. What do you think of this one.

1 Corinthians 14:22a Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers

= pending doom for the Jewish unbelievers. Foreign tongues were a sign of exile or occupation in the OT to the disobedient nation.
“Indeed, He will speak to this people Through stammering lips and a foreign tongue, He who said to them, “Here is rest, give rest to the weary,” And, “Here is repose,” but they would not listen. So the word of the Lord to them will be, “Order on order, order on order, Line on line, line on line, A little here, a little there,” That they may go and stumble backward, be broken, snared and taken captive.” Isaiah 28:11–13 (NASB95)

 

[CharismaticLady]

= pending doom for the Jewish unbelievers. Foreign tongues were a sign of exile or occupation in the OT to the disobedient nation.
“Indeed, He will speak to this people Through stammering lips and a foreign tongue, He who said to them, “Here is rest, give rest to the weary,” And, “Here is repose,” but they would not listen. So the word of the Lord to them will be, “Order on order, order on order, Line on line, line on line, A little here, a little there,” That they may go and stumble backward, be broken, snared and taken captive.” Isaiah 28:11–13 (NASB95)

Is that what you think is the sign in verse 22? I think verse 21 was given as a reminder, but not answer.

 

[Dave L]

Is that what you think is the sign in verse 22? I think verse 21 was given as a reminder, but not answer.

It's one of several spelling doom.

 

[CharismaticLady]

It's one of several spelling doom.

Do you believe that all the interpretations of tongues is impending doom? On the Day of Pentecost they heard them praising God.

 

[Dave L]

Do you believe that all the interpretations of tongues is impending doom? On the Day of Pentecost they heard them praising God.

“In the Law it is written, “By men of strange tongues and by the lips of strangers I will speak to this people, and even so they will not listen to Me,” says the Lord. So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.” 1 Corinthians 14:21–22 (NASB95)

 

[CharismaticLady]

“In the Law it is written, “By men of strange tongues and by the lips of strangers I will speak to this people, and even so they will not listen to Me,” says the Lord. So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.” 1 Corinthians 14:21–22 (NASB95)

So then is the SIGN a positive sign or a negative sign?

 

[Dave L]

So then is the SIGN a positive sign or a negative sign?

It was a negative sign to the unbelievers, but provided NT scripture when interpreted until the NT was finished.

 

[CharismaticLady]

It was a negative sign to the unbelievers, but provided NT scripture when interpreted until the NT was finished.

Yes, it was a negative sign,(but not used to write scripture). That is why verse 23 is 22's conclusion. If they all spoke in tongues at once it would be a cacophony and scare newcomers off.

 

[rockytopva]

“The chief dangers which confront the coming century will be religion without the Holy Ghost, Christianity without Christ, forgiveness without repentance, salvation without regeneration, politics without God, and heaven without hell.” - General William Booth - Salvation Army 1829-1916

 

[Dave L]

“The chief dangers which confront the coming century will be religion without the Holy Ghost, Christianity without Christ, forgiveness without repentance, salvation without regeneration, politics without God, and heaven without hell.” - General William Booth - Salvation Army 1829-1916

All believers have the Holy Spirit. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit.

 

[Sound Doctrine]

Why the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is not for Today

Understanding the Baptism with the Holy Spirit in Acts is difficult. But I found the keys are the Ethiopian Eunuch Acts 8:27 and the Samarians Acts 8:5. In essence, all had the Holy Spirit but only the Samarians had the Baptism with the Holy Spirit.

These received the gift of the Holy Spirit according to Peter in Acts 2:28 just as we do today. But the Samarians also received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit through the apostle’s hands which the Eunuch did not.

On Pentecost God baptized the 12 Apostles with the Holy Spirit who also spoke in tongues. According to Acts 2:38 the eunuch and the Samarians had the gift of the Holy Spirit through Philip’s preaching. But Philip could not provide the baptism of the Holy Spirit for either. Acts reveals that beyond the two outpourings, only the Apostles through the laying on of their hands could baptize people in the Holy Spirit. It was the proof of apostleship Hebrews 2:4.

When the Apostles visited the Samarian converts, they laid their hands on them baptizing them in the Holy Spirit. But this was not the case with the Eunuch. It says he went on his way rejoicing after Philip baptized him in water.

So the Samarians and the Eunuch received the gift of the Holy Spirit through Philip’s preaching. But only the Samarians received the baptism with the Holy Spirit through the Apostles’ hands.

About 7 years later, God poured out the Holy Spirit on the gentiles at Cornelius’ house which resulted in their speaking in tongues just as the Apostles did at Pentecost.

Scripture doesn’t mention the 3000 converts on the day of Pentecost as baptized with the Holy Spirit. Nor the 5,000 converts days later. But we might assume those whom the Apostles baptized in water also received the baptism with the Holy Spirit through their hands. But anyone baptized by someone other than an apostle would have been like the Eunuch who received only the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Later, Paul preached to the disciples at Ephesus Acts 19:1. These like the Eunuch received the gift of the Holy Spirit. But they also received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit through the apostle’s hands the same way the Samarians did.

The Baptism with the Holy Spirit provided God’s word through tongues and prophecy until the New Testament canon became complete. How do we know this? Paul says scripture thoroughly equips us 2 Timothy 3:17. Paul said tongues and prophecy provided only partial knowledge 1 Corinthians 13:9. So it makes sense scripture replaced them when completed.

Beyond Acts, the Corinthians no doubt received the Baptism with the Holy Spirit through Paul’s hands. And Paul mentioned he wanted to visit the Romans to give spiritual gifts to them too Romans 1:11. Paul mentions laying his hands on Timothy who also received a gift 2 Timothy 1:6.

So we can say scripture directly supports the Baptism of the Holy Spirit for those ministered to by an apostle. That it was not for all. The Baptism with the Holy Spirit passed into history with the rest of the apostles Hebrews 2:4 because only they provided it as a sign of their authority. And that scripture replaced the fragmentary gifts of tongues and prophecy with the completed revelation. And we can confidently say believers from Pentecost on have the gift of Holy Spirit according to Acts 2:38, but not the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. Just as the Eunuch and believers since then.

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. - Ephesians 4:4-5.

We are all, who are saved, baptized by the Holy Spirit.